Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Exocet25fr]

EU admits it won’t keep Ukraine ammunition promise – media
The bloc has reportedly only delivered around 30% of the total rounds promised.

https://www.rt.com/news/587042-eu-uk...nition-target/


EU states rebel against €20 billion Ukraine plan – Reuters
Some member states remain skeptical about the multi-billion euro military spending project.

https://www.rt.com/news/587039-eu-billions-ukraine-aid/


US sabotaged Ukraine peace plan – NATO member state
The Hungarian prime minister blamed Washington for the failure of 2022 Istanbul talks.

https://www.rt.com/news/587032-us-ru...e-talks-orban/


Ukraine will fight without US – Zelensky
Kiev will only relent after seizing all the territories it claims as its own, president warns.

https://www.rt.com/russia/587016-ukr...-usa-zelensky/


As its counteroffensive stalls, Ukraine signals readiness for a long war
Amid talk of stalemate, long waits for western weapons and attention diverted to Gaza, experts say the conflict could last into 2025.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...for-a-long-war


Ukraine’s Kyiv comes under attack for first time in months, mayor says
Strong explosions heard in the capital in first attack on the city since September.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/...ths-mayor-says

[mapuc]

Markus

[mapuc]

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Total combat losses of Russian Federation since beginning of war - about 310,650 people (+1,130 per day), 5,342 tanks, 7,527 artillery systems, 10,041 armoured vehicles.

Since the beginning of the full-scale invasion of Russia, Ukrainian defenders liquidated about 310,650 Russian invaders.

personnel - about 310650 (+1130) people,

tanks - 5342 (+25) units,

armored combat vehicles - 10041 (+24) units,

artillery systems - 7,527 (+38) units,

MLRS - 879 (+2) units,

air defense systems - 579 (+1) units,

aircraft - 322 (+0) units,

helicopters - 324 (+0) units,

UAVs of the operational and tactical level - 5620 (+25),

cruise missiles - 1559 (+1),

ships/boats - 22 (+2) units,

submarines - 1 (+0) units,

motor vehicles and tankers - 9925 (+49) units,

special equipment - 1069 (+9). Source: https://censor.net/en/p3454944

[Exocet25fr]

No Ukrainian victory in sight – EU's Borrell
The bloc should brace itself for a “longer conflict” between Moscow and Kiev, its top diplomat says.

https://www.rt.com/news/587073-no-uk...sight-borrell/


Russia has five million Ukrainian refugees – diplomat
Over 730,000 of the arrivals are children, most of whom came to the country with their relatives, Vassily Nebenzia has said, adding that a significant number of them were children fleeing the fighting.

https://www.rt.com/russia/587068-rus...aine-refugees/


Ukraine not ready to join EU – member state
Hungarian prime minister Viktor Orban used an old expression to describe a great distance when discussing how close Kiev is to becoming a member.

“Ukraine is absolutely not ready to negotiate over its bid for EU membership. Ukraine is as far from EU membership as Mako is from Jerusalem,” he said, using a popular Hungarian idiom.

https://www.rt.com/news/586984-hunga...ine-accession/


EU state explains objection to Ukrainian membership
It's absurd to consider Kiev's candidacy amid the ongoing conflict, Hungary’s foreign minister has said.

https://www.rt.com/news/586871-hunga...eu-membership/

[mapuc]

Not good at all if true

https://ekstrabladet-dk.translate.go..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Markus

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Not good at all if true

https://ekstrabladet-dk.translate.go..._x_tr_pto=wapp

Markus

Yes, German Der Spiegel has a story about that, too, but behind paywall.

I stick to what I said about this possibility (Ukraine behind the Nordstream attacks) already over one year ago: if true that Ukraine did it, Germany must immediately cancel all aid and military and financial support, and pull out of any such projects by the Western community. I would not forgive such an underhanded attack while they expect us to deliver them aid and supplies, and at our costs. - Of course,k we all know that the Berlin government would not do this. I talk of what I wouold do in that case if it were my decision.

Even worse if Ukraine did it but without Zelensky's knowledge, because that would mean he is not in control of his team. Again, in this case I would want Germany to pull out of everything, no matter what that means for Ukraine's future, i would just not care any longer. You do not strike at a friend who comes to your aid and support. But that is the reason why one has to be absolutely sure when concluding that Ukraine is behind it, because Russia would have had a strong motive in hoping to trigger right this reaction if it was Russia planning this as a false flag operation.

The German government keeps the investigation under total and utmost secrecy and under control by the chancellor's office, and does not comment by a single syllable, which I take as an indication that they want to hide from the public unwelcomed findings.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes, German Der Spiegel has a story about that, too, but behind paywall.

I stick to what I said about this possibility (Ukraine behind the Nordstream attacks) already over one year ago: if true that Ukraine did it, Germany must immediately cancel all aid and military and financial support, and pull out of any such projects by the Western community. I would not forgive such an underhanded attack while they expect us to deliver them aid and supplies, and at our costs. - Of course,k we all know that the Berlin government would not do this. I talk of what I wouold do in that case if it were my decision.

Even worse if Ukraine did it but without Zelensky's knowledge, because that would mean he is not in control of his team. Again, in this case I would want Germany to pull out of everything, no matter what that means for Ukraine's future, i would just not care any longer. You do not strike at a friend who comes to your aid and support. But that is the reason why one has to be absolutely sure when concluding that Ukraine is behind it, because Russia would have had a strong motive in hoping to trigger right this reaction if it was Russia planning this as a false flag operation.

The German government keeps the investigation under total and utmost secrecy and under control by the chancellor's office, and does not comment by a single syllable, which I take as an indication that they want to hide from the public unwelcomed findings.

Hypocrite as usual Germany let it dictate by terrorist Russia but when victim of invasion/genocide act according war rules we need to let a terrorist state destroy Ukraine bravo for the German conscience. Go on kneel for a failed empire glad the front for you lot is shorter than for me you will not see me defending Germany.

[mapuc]

We do not know for sure who's behind the sabotage of Nord Stream 1&2.
Ok so far the evidence is pointing towards Ukraine.

What I ask myself is this:

What was the motive behind it ?

Can we, when we know the motive, know who did it ?

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

We do not know for sure who's behind the sabotage of Nord Stream 1&2.
Ok so far the evidence is pointing towards Ukraine.

What I ask myself is this:

What was the motive behind it ?

Can we, when we know the motive, know who did it ?

Markus

Only motive I can think of is by cutting gas supply to mainly Russia's lapdog (whose former leader is a Russia agent) forcing Europe to support Ukraine but like some say here "do not fall for propaganda" this is Russia propaganda.

Bild: German government plans to provide 8 billion euros in military aid to Ukraine in 2024

Germany's coalition government agreed this week to double the budget for military aid for Ukraine in 2024, Bild reported on Nov. 11, citing information from the German Defense Ministry. While four billion euros ($4.3 billion) was the amount initially allocated for military aid for Ukraine in the draft 2024 budget, the government made the decision to increase that number to eight billion euros ($8.6 billion). The news follows a Bild report on Oct. 22 that according to a confidential Defense Ministry memo, the government had not yet budgeted enough funds to be able to deliver sufficient military aid to Ukraine in 2024.

While the Finance Ministry had allocated four billion euros ($4.3 billion) for military support to Ukraine next year, the Defense Ministry had calculated that 3.1 billion euros ($3.3 billion) were already earmarked for projects that had already been announced, according to the German media outlet. Another 770 million euros ($816 million) were to go to the Foreign Ministry's aid programs, leaving just 120 million for new military aid support to Ukraine in 2024.

The Defense Ministry was concerned that billions more would be needed in order to meet Ukraine's needs for military support. The decision on the doubling of the funds for Ukraine's military aid will be officially decided on next week by the Budget Committee, Bild said. Germany is the world's second provider of military aid to Ukraine after the United States. https://kyivindependent.com/bild-ger...d-for-ukraine/

Ukrainians pay the highest price for their freedom and our safety in Europe Russia does not fight Ukraine, it fights against the West. The only force in Europe, the only army that has the fighting power in Europe is Ukraine, Ukraine is the best army in Europe no NATO member has this experience no NATO member can fight Russia like Ukraine. When we withdraw support to Ukraine it is a European defeat we then are the losers in Europe this is real this is war that we pay a price is lesser of an offer than Ukraine pays for years.

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Ukrainians pay the highest price for their freedom and our safety in Europe Russia does not fight Ukraine, it fights against the West. The only force in Europe, the only army that has the fighting power in Europe is Ukraine, Ukraine is the best army in Europe no NATO member has this experience no NATO member can fight Russia like Ukraine. When we withdraw support to Ukraine it is a European defeat we then are the losers in Europe this is real this is war that we pay a price is lesser of an offer than Ukraine pays for years.

I agree on every point in what you wrote.

They are fighting for our freedom

There are voices who demands a stop for military aid-'cause it expand the suffering for the civilians in Ukraine.
(Said to one them-the allied should have done the same during WWII. stop fighting the nazis to prevent further suffering for the Danes)

Markus

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I agree on every point in what you wrote.

They are fighting for our freedom

There are voices who demands a stop for military aid-'cause it expand the suffering for the civilians in Ukraine.
(Said to one them-the allied should have done the same during WWII. stop fighting the nazis to prevent further suffering for the Danes)

Markus

Majority of suffering in Ukraine is at the front hundreds of soldiers are dying or getting wounded daily, those that say otherwise are not the brightest in the crayon box.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Hypocrite as usual Germany let it dictate by terrorist Russia but when victim of invasion/genocide act according war rules we need to let a terrorist state destroy Ukraine bravo for the German conscience. Go on kneel for a failed empire glad the front for you lot is shorter than for me you will not see me defending Germany.

Even if you do not understand that, but if somebody else asks me for help, even demands me to help, and leaves no opportunity unused to lecture me why I am obligated to help (in his view) - and then, while I comply with his demands, starts blowing up my car or hacks my bank account or in any other way strikes at me, I take that a little bit personal and do not just wash it off my mental noteboard.

Technically, attacking even just the ownership-shared econimcal ifnrtatrructure of somebody else with military destructire force, is an act of war in my book. Germany was/is enmgaged with billiosna nd bilions of German tax money in the business conglomerate that constructed and ran NS2, that it is all Russian is just half of the truth only. A two digit billions sum. Ukraine may not have liked it, and maybe I even agree and maybe Germany by now admits and understands that trusting Russia was stupid (who did not tust Russia, on the toher ahnd, in the past 30 years, and forgave them everything and even two or three wars once and again?) - that does not mean you can just go and blow parts of the critical infrastructure up.


You may balk, justified or not - but you certainly do not bite the hand you expect to feed you.

Germany is now the second biggest military donator after the United States. And, to my best knowledge, different to parts of the American deliveries, the German deliveries are donated - not in parts sold, the ameicna sgave parts of what they sent, on credit. In parts systems like recently another Iris-T get delivered with priority to Ukraine that even still do not go to the Bundeswehr. We have no Iris-T in service - those that were meant to get produced, are now going directly to Ukraine




Again: you do not turn against those whom you ask for help, demand you to help, lecture to help you.

Actually thats quite simple and obvious.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Even if you do not understand that, but if somebody else asks me for help, even demands me to help, and leaves no opporutnity unused to lecture me why I am obligated to help (in his view) - and then, while I comply with his demands, starts blowing up my car or hacks my bank account or in any other way strikes at me, I take that a little bit personal and do not just wash it off my mental noteboard.



You may balk, justified or not - but you certainly do not bite the hand you expect to feed you.


Germany is now the second biggest military donator after the United States. And, to my best knowledge, different to parts of the American deliveries, the German deliveries are all donated - not in parts sold. In parts systems like recently another Iris-T get delivered with prioprity to Ukraine that even do not go to the Bundeswehr.



https://postimg.cc/QVTztb8N/1ca7ff61


Again: you do not turn against those whom you ask for help, demand you to help, lecture to help you.



Actually thats quite simple, obvious.

Oh Rheinmetall gives all those factory lines because the German government pays sure the Europe military complex works out of Christian charity. It is Ukraine that does your dirty bloody job, so they can do more than only bleeding for Germany because we are next it is not Ukraine it is the rebuild of the great empire of Russia that is at our border. We in Europe will have to take the lead, and we will because our democratic systems in the long run out last those authoritarian systems. These pipelines will not matter there are so many theories who done it, but there is still no proof presented other forces are trying to push this I do not know who blown them up do not care either Russia is worse than Ukraine Russia was/is never any good do not think the world will care for some pipelines over genocide.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

I agree on every point in what you wrote.

They are fighting for our freedom

There are voices who demands a stop for military aid-'cause it expand the suffering for the civilians in Ukraine.
(Said to one them-the allied should have done the same during WWII. stop fighting the nazis to prevent further suffering for the Danes)

Markus

I always was with Colonel Reisner on this. Either you give the Ukraine what it needs to win, or you don't - but then you just extend the war and prevent Ukraine from winning it, and that begs the question what your motive then is. I said early last year already that the americans do not really care for a free Ukraine, for them the country still is dubious and suspicous - they want to maximise damage to Russia (="boiling the frog"), at the cost of Ukraine, so that when they turn to the Pacific, Russia is too weak to start something big in America's European rear area. What Europe's motive is, remains a bit speculative, and there might be severla rivalling ones, since the EU doe snto speak with one voice, but I think it is reasonable to assume they seek a moral alibi allowing them to return to business as usual without loosing their face over having let Ukraine down - and neither Berlin nor Paris actually want Ukraine to join NATO or the EU any time soon, since this would mean a loss of influence for both Western capitals, and a shift of the balance of power towards the East, to Warsaw and Kyiv.



Thereby Reisner correctly concludes that from a moral standpoint, if you do not even intend to win the war for Ukraine, and do not do what is needed to win the war, then you should negotiate a deal of any kind because else you just sacrifice the civilians and the industrial foundation of the country, and for nothing. That conclusion then is just logical. Either you fight, or you don't



I would prefer the West would have opted for full and determined military support, no limits, no systems a taboo, to make sure Ukraine wins militarily by throwing Russia out early on. But early on Zelensky did not even listen to American warnings that Russia would attack, while Bubble-Olaf and Macronman believed lies Putin told them both face to face less than 48 hours before the attack.



Part fo the triuth also is that Eurpople alone, withot the US, does not have the military power to take on Russia. Its about numbers, and availability of numbers. Europe'S military status is a mess.



Ukraine has lost the momentum, the Russians forced them to give up where the ukrainians were better: mobile warfare, and to get deadlocked in where russia is able to slowly win the war: trench warfare and war of attrition. Russia can afford its losses (those saying the oppposite still underestimate Russia), Ukraine increasingly cannot. It would have been of ultimate importance to win the war early on, because I predicted last year that in Q3 and Q4 this year the psychological motivation of Western states and especially Westenr publics to continue with supporting ukriane would wane. And that is what happens now, no matter what the government press writes and prints. Ukraine can no longer hope to boost support with Western publics, it cannot even hope to maintain the current level. From here on it lives on battery, and the battery slowly drains, so to speak. The situasiton in America doe snot make it any more promising for them next year.



And Russia knows that. They will not give up, just hang on to it, more they must not do. Time is on their side.



I know that some do not like to see it this way, but denying reality does not win you wars. Wishful thinking does not do anything for you. Ukraine has not yet lost - but as things now stand, it is slowly loosing. Zalushnji knows that, thats why he raised his voice, as a soldier, in the Economist recently. He said what the West must provide to still throw the rudder around. I just doubt that the West will do it. That is due to Israel-Hamas, and a lot of other egoistic reasons. And Russia will look for other possibilities to distract Western attention further and to redirect Western support from Ukraine elsewhere.



You do not win wars by wishful thinking, by denying realities you do not like. I say and imply that since many months.