UK Politics Thread

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Well looking at some of the scenes on your link and my link below gets me to thinking the authorities need to toughen up before all the cells are maxed out.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47959207

[STEED]

Listening to LBC and they are reporting two polls in The Times tomorrow puts the Brexit party well in front of Labour and Conservatives. I don't put any stock in polls but I do find that interesting in the point what the Cons are going too do about it who are behind Labour as well.

[Jimbuna]

A Conservative MP is making a fresh attempt to remove John Bercow from his position as House of Commons Speaker.

Crispin Blunt has said he will table a motion expressing no confidence in the Speaker when the House of Commons returns from recess on Tuesday.

In a statement posted on Twitter, the Reigate MP accuses Mr Bercow of bias over Brexit and overruling precedent on "a number of key votes".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47960001

This has been tried before and failed just as I expect it will be this time. There is already a plethora of bias by many on both sides of the house.

[Jimbuna]

One of the European Commission's most powerful officials has said that a no-deal Brexit would mean a hard Irish border.

The comments from Martin Selmayr feature in a documentary made by ARTE, the Franco-German broadcaster.

The secretary-general of the European Commission was filmed in a meeting with senior MEPs in late 2018.

"Let's be very clear - if there is no withdrawal agreement there will be a hard border," he told them.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47966180

Seeing as how Ireland and the UK have repeatedly stated neither of them will create said 'hard border' the question is "precisely who will put one in place"?

[Catfish]

No one with a clear mind wants it.
Even the WTO has meanwhile declared it will not demand a hard border.
Though this seems exactly what the brexiters want, to "take control" of the borders.

As even the Express tabloid propaganda Murdoch crap paper writes:
"Essentially, if the Irish border remains fluid, there would still need to be checks in place for goods in and out of the rest of the UK and EU. [say the brexiters]
If there is no hard border in Ireland, those goods will need to be checked in ports, meaning trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would be stilted.
So a hard border in Ireland won’t work, and a border in the Irish sea won’t work.
And why do we need to have a border of some sorts? Because the UK has insisted it will leave the EU single market and customs union.
That means, somehow, everything in and out of the UK to and from the EU needs to go through a border check."

So the backstop is meant to ensure no matter what happens with the rest of the negotiations, there won't be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
Which is why the EU insists on the backstop.
Which is why the brexiters are against the backstop.

The weather is nice, 20 degrees centigrade, sunny, so much nice things to do. Just stop boring us to death with brexit

[STEED]

The UKIP leader dismisses his predecessor and his new party, telling Sky News: "All you get from Nigel is rhetoric."

https://news.sky.com/story/ukips-ger...arage-11697003

Oh shut up you looser, you know you are going to get a right royal roasting. All the sensible people have left UKIP leaving the door open for the beer swilling pie chomping gut bucket big gob right wing racists who should be behind bars in a zoo.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

So the backstop is meant to ensure no matter what happens with the rest of the negotiations, there won't be a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
Which is why the EU insists on the backstop.
Which is why the brexiters are against the backstop.

Once again you only list half the truth and comfortably hide the other half. That is that as long as the backstop got called up by the EU, the UK is legally prevented from forming trade agreements with other countires since the backsotp indudes that the Uk must stay within the cusotm union that rles out independent such agreements between custom unions mebers and partners fro outside of the custom union.


O wonderful card blanche to keep the UK locked inside the custom union for as long as the EU wants. Which is: forever. The EU does not want the UK to leave.



That is the main concern by brexiteers refusing the backstop option. And you know it by now, it has been explained and laid out to you often enough now.


There is no solution to this constellation that goes without one side agreeing to totally compromising its base positions. They could have known that already two years ago, of only they would have cared to give this issue the attention. The UK accepting the reihgt of the eU to call a backstop would give up its sovereignty and allows to get paraylsed whenever the EU wants. The EU cannot give it up without compromising the legal protection of the Irish Republic, a EU member.



Its the reason why there can only be a hard brexit, or no brexit worth the name, a super-soft brexit that is no exit in essence and effect: an empty word-shell that leaves the UK with additional costs, less rights and all the principle burdens and obligations of a membership.


Customs union cannot be part of Brexit. Backstop includes the custom union, and nio new trade agreement sof the UK with non-EU countries. Brexit with backstop thus is not imaginable. There can be no Brexit with a backstop option. There cannot be a squared circle. Hence, they will try to erode the Brexit and turn it into a meaningless, empty hull, a wordshell. Commons never wanted a Brexit anyway. It was the referendum demanding it.



Give it up, Catfish, you know all that by now. You really should at least.

[Catfish]

^ once again
Who existed first, the hen or the egg?

It is about the (southern) Republic of Ireland, which is a EU member. Why should the well-founded intent of this country and 26 other nations bow to one country? Because it is England? And the latter does not even make up its mind to what they want? The UK or better England didn't do their homework, stop blaming the EU for everything.

"The WTO option is the cold hard floor on which the UK will splat down if no safety net is in place in time."

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1PA2TP

https://www.ft.com/content/4f0ea43e-...a-7342fe5e173f

"The UK must produce its own schedule covering both services and each of the 5,000-plus product lines covered in the WTO agreement and get it agreed by all the 163 WTO states."

[Jimbuna]

Further evidence of why a hard border must never be allowed to exist again to help prevent a return of the troubles.

A journalist has been shot dead during rioting in Londonderry that police are treating as a "terrorist incident".

Dissident republicans are being blamed for killing 29-year-old Lyra McKee during rioting after police searches in Derry's Creggan area on Thursday night.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) said the New IRA "are likely to be the ones behind this" and detectives have started a murder inquiry.

Prime Minister Theresa May said the murder was "shocking and senseless".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47985469

[Skybird]

Your determination to spin it again and again, is nerve-killing.

You havew to understand one thing. It takes two to tango, and if one of the two does not want to dance any longer, the other has no claim for insisting that he nevertheles must do so.

The argument in Spain-Catonia, in France/Basque country, now over Brexit always seems to be: we benefit from not allowing you to leave us, thus we have a right to insist that you must stay ours. You must serve our interests. Your free choice to refuse that, is not relevant."

That is imperialism. That is slavery. That is treating people as property of other people the latter can abuse.

Partnership includes the quality of voluntariness, else it is dictatorship. Treaties can be signed - and of course they can be cancelled again. Where claim is laid that the other may not leave if he wants, may not cancel a partnership he does not want anymore, you have force. Command forcibly. Ownership. Imperialism.

That is not freedom. That is crime of the worst. Violation is most profound human rights.

The hen and egg issue is no issue here at all, that is just another spin of yours. The UK population gave itself a majority rule as the principle by which to to decide issues. By these their own rules, they decided in conformity with their self-given rules to leave the eU. They have all natural right one can imagine to do so. They voluntarily joined a union on grounds of views and arguments back then that are not valid today anymore since the EU of today has been turned into somethign so drastically different than what it was back then when it was the ECU. They wish to end the partnership and want to leave, people said by majority vote. And the rest of Europe has absolutely zero claim and arugment to oppose that. None. Nothing. We may like it or not. Okay, we do not like it. It does not matter, our likes and dislikes do not give us any claim.

And you claim that others' foreign interests justfiy that one can demand the UK to nevertheless stay, because some of us see benefit for themselves if they stay? Again, they cna and have opted for leaving, and whether we like that or not, does not matter. They are not our property, not our slaves, not our loot from imperial conquest.

The hen and egg problem is not a problem here at all ,that is just another rhetoric of yours. The problem is that the parliament does not want what the referendum said people want. And that said parliament now wants to erode the meaning of the term "exiting a union (Brexit)" - but without exiting at all by functionality and effect. All should stay as it is, just that it should be called "Brexit", while it is no Brexit. Still a custom union. Still no right of Britain striking trade agreements with other states of its own. Still no sovereignty from EU legislation and court supremacy. Still Brussel deciding and enforcing things that Brexiteers wanted the UK to regain control of and sovereignty for.

The Irish border problem is a fact one should have adressed from beginning on. You cannot have a meaningful Brexit without a hard border there. That would be the squaring of a circle. What the parliament weasels around is that you cannot have both: a meaningful Brexit plus open borders between NI and ROI. You also cannot imagine a menaingful Brexit - while maintaining a custom union. That is no Brexit. That is just giving up rights and voting powers, while being left with all obligations still.

It does not mater whether you can understand the yes-voters' reasons for their referendum decision or not. Its not your business, nor mine. You may be surprised, but form an economic standpoint I find their reasons illogical and selfcontradicting, more so than I see chances (wich there are as werll, if one only would play the game tough and with consequences, which they dont). But its not my business. I am not to tell them what they must motivate their decisions with. We have to realise that they made this decision, we can appeal, we see they are not interested, we have to accept them leaving, we have to accept that we cannot benefit from them anymore like we did before - end of story, period. We have no right to raise claims against them, that they must serve our interests. They must not. Not morally. Not legally once they left. Not for any other reason. They do not exist just for our own sake.

Its the same argument that I have raised over the Catalonia issue, and why I said a Spanish constitution that self-empowers the govenrment to declare that another people with different etnicty and culture (yes, different ethncity and culture) shall have no right to leave Spain and be independent, morally and naturally from all beginning on is invalid and a violence of most profound human rights. I said the same for any independenbce movement in Europe where the majhority of the native population in a region considers to leave the surrounding bigger state. Scotland. States - or international supra-national organizations - claiming that regional populations have no right to evade from their claim for power and command, are slave-keepers per definition. They claim property rights over populations.

The hen and egg has nothing to do with it, for the third time now. Nor is the EU the only side having interests, which to some degree are even valid. The other side has interests as well and they are as valid, if not even more so. Stop ignoring the latter, it is nerve-killing to the max. And is not clever at all, but is simply reality denial. That the British parliament behaves like a cage of monkeys on LSD, means nothing for the principle things, they are just monkeys on LSD. After all, the parliaments always were against Brexit, and now have to weasel around due to the referendum and voters at home.

There can only be no Brexit and no Irish border, or a Brexit without agreement and a hard border. Evertyhing else is an abuse of the meaning of terms and words. The British people itself must navigate the waters they put themselves into, it is up to them to accept parliament to betray the referendum, or to storm the hall and burn the house down. Neither the EU nor anyone else has to lay claim for that they should do what we others tell them. "If you do this, we will do that". That is all we are allowed to intervene with in their debate. The EU'S claimed interests must not be their command. And if they leave with all consequences, the EU's claims and demands must mean nothing for them anymore. That is what I would find most attractive in all this chaos.

[Catfish]

Yeah right. If the one that wants to leave has undersigned treaties that go on for a - if limited - time, he has to fulfill those. Otherwise it is a break of treaties, and being regarded as this, internationally.

Why doesn't England let Ireland go then, if that is what you call slavery and imperialism? "Treating people as property of other people the latter can abuse" and you reall mean that? How many wine have you drunk?
England has plundered and enslaved a good part of the world for centuries, not that they would call a spade a spade of course.
I fail to see how the EU is "enslaving" the UK, this is ridiculous. Unless you happen to be as awful as Farage.

Your comparisons are so overblown and full of yourself and self-rightousness it is breathtaking. Get some professional help.

The biggest part 0of the UK - England - voted to get out of the EU. And all have to follow, like in this joke. England, Scotland and Ireland walked into a bar. The all had to quit because England wanted to".

Partnership, well. This decade-long cherry picking had to stop somewhere, and i am almost happy that it finally happens. "Anything else than partnership is dictatorship?" No, sorry. This is dumbest black-and-white-thinking. Then England has been a dictator decades-long while joining the EU.
And i can see how altruistic and well-meaning, and professional the english government has been and is, with or without the EU. This is laughable, and ridiculous.

There can only be no Brexit and no Irish border, or a Brexit without agreement and a hard border.

Ah? Why? So what has the EU to do with it? What about England? What about the WTO?

The British people itself must navigate the waters they put themselves into, it is up to them to accept parliament to betray the referendum, or to storm the hall and burn the house down. Neither the EU nor anyone else has to lay claim for that they should do what we others tell them.

Exactly. And while a lot of nations internationally and the EU look at England they do not actually do much, but watch a drama unfold, watch how they are hurting themselves. But this is not the fault of the EU, or Botswana.

[Skybird]

Yeah right. If the one that wants to leave has undersigned treaties that go on for a - if limited - time, he has to fulfill those. Otherwise it is a break of treaties, and being regarded as this, internationally


........fine with that, but one can demand precision. but this has nothing to do with the bachstop problem.



Why doesn't England let Ireland go then, if that is what you call slavery and imperialism? "Treating people as property of other people the latter can abuse" and you reall mean that?

,......... Jim said the northern Irish by majority want to stay in and with the UK. They also want no hard border.Like the parliament, they contradict themselves by wanting two things that cannot be had together. THE UK AS FAR AS I KNOW HAS NOT PRESSED THEM TO STAY IN THE UK. London allowed a scottish referendum as well on independence, mind you. Neither the Gibraltarians nor the Falklanders are forced to stay either. They want to stay. Like apparently the northern Irish.



I fail to see how the EU is "enslaving" the UK, this is ridiculous. Unless you happen to be as awful as Farage.
,............ What I said, stands - and how i said it. no people must live for the sake of other people, expecting them to do that is claiming property rights over the other, and that is slavery by defininion for sure.


Your comparisons are so overblown and full of yourself and self-rightousness it is breathtaking. Get some professional help.
........ I take it from such personal attacks that you ran out of arguments.


The biggest part 0of the UK - England - voted to get out of the EU. And all have to follow, like in this joke. England, Scotland and Ireland walked into a bar. The all had to quit because England wanted to".
......... the uk is kind of a union of four, and they all agreed to decide in this union by majority votes. Maybe you do not like majority votes if they do not dekiver your preferred outcom







Partnership, well. This decade-long cherry picking had to stop somewhere, and i am almost happy that it finally happens. "Anything else than partnership is dictatorship?" No, sorry.
..........Try to correctly quote and understand what i actually said. you already add your own spin to my words again. cheap.




This is dumbest black-and-white-thinking. Then England has been a dictator decades-long while joining the EU.
And i can see how altruistic and well-meaning, and professional the english government has been and is, with or without the EU. This is laughable, and ridiculous.
........ whoever feels adressed by this reply, may or may not answer. it wont be me, however, since i feel not adressed.



Ah? Why? So what has the EU to do with it? What about England? What about the WTO?
.....???



Exactly. And while a lot of nations internationally and the EU look at England they do not actually do much, but watch a drama unfold, watch how they are hurting themselves. But this is not the fault of the EU, or Botswana.
....... i nowhere ever said that somebody else is responsible for the selfcontradicting behaviour of parliament. i identified the parliament never having wanted brexit but needing to deal with the referebdum as cause for their weaseling. i said when they are serious with brexit they necessarily can only go for hard brexit, and i explained why that is so.


do you actually read what i say before you type a "reply" ?

[Jimbuna]

Looking at the recent posts above reminds me of the discord that currently exists here in the UK on this subject matter.

What I believe we can all agree on is that this whole sorry state of affairs is a right mess.

I'm not about laying the blame on either or both sides of the divide but one thing is for certain, Parliament are failing the people of the UK and there are strong rumours that the all powerful 1922 Committee are considering ways to change the Tory Party internal rules in an effort to oust PM May long before the December deadline she currently has as a result of an earlier leadership confidence vote.

Who would replace her and what would change as a result...God only knows

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Looking at the recent posts above reminds me of the discord that currently exists here in the UK on this subject matter.

What I believe we can all agree on is that this whole sorry state of affairs is a right mess.

I'm not about laying the blame on either or both sides of the divide but one thing is for certain, Parliament are failing the people of the UK and there are strong rumours that the all powerful 1922 Committee are considering ways to change the Tory Party internal rules in an effort to oust PM May long before the December deadline she currently has as a result of an earlier leadership confidence vote.

Who would replace her and what would change as a result...God only knows

THEY LIED TO US, THEY SHOULD BE GIVEN THE....

[STEED]

Brexit: Labour must back another referendum - Tom Watson

Labour must promise another Brexit referendum to counter the electoral challenge posed by Nigel Farage, the party's deputy leader has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48000600

Didn't they voted on this and rejected it.

I have no interest going down the Irish road so they get the result they want. We already had it so shut up and go away.