Still Confused about detecting ships

Originally Posted by Nexus7

There is an additional difficulty in classifying contacts, the same platform can be in the scenario below different flags, triggering different Rules of Engagement. I realize I am probably skipping a few steps in the current discourse, still it is not seldomly a situation. Well when it is surface you could be able (in theory) to see some crew members in the face at least

I'm not aware of any missions where this problem comes up.
Since DW doesn't differentiate, this is usually circumvented by mission designers. It would be rather stupid to have a mission where you need to sink a certain vessel, yet said vessel appears multiple times.

There are ways to avoid this.
Either pick a unique vessel, or play with triggers.
Coincidentally, I am in the editor at the moment working on a mission where you need to sink 3 specific targets. For now, these targets are specific vessels, but I will probably add a few triggers that let you visually identify the target, so the player can be sure it is the right one.

[p7p8]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

speed150mph gave an extensive description already (I wonder what p7p8 considers wrong?).

Hmm let's begin:

Originally Posted by speed150mph

Determining surface vs sub contact is fairly easy unless at very long range.

This is not true. Ships in SP scenarios are often without EMCON and with high speed. This is NOT happen in MP game. Perry, Udaloy or Bergamini can also decrease speed to 4-6 kts. Surface units have advantage over sub at high speed - they can still to control situation while sub at high speed is deaf.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

Listen on broadband, turn on sound...

This is completly wrong! Your main tool for detection is NARROWBAND low frequency sonar - on surf and sub platform.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

First thing I do I quickly guage distance (how loud the noise is)

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Originally Posted by speed150mph

Then you do your TMA if you know how

Once again this is completly wrong. TMA work is mainly for determining range because bearing you have from sensor and direction (left or right) you have after small amount of time.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

and then if he's distant enough to now worry me I go to periscope depth.(...)
I raise periscope and try to grab a picture

Playable surface units have very good TA sonars for identification - much better than submarines. That is because all "strings" on narrowband (LOFAR) are indexed. On screen below number "15" is Los Angeles Flt I class (60 235 325 991)



That means - if you are close enough for visual identiffication - you are probably detected.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

At periscope depth I start off with my ESM antenna. This will get you a quick ID unless their running emcon conditions.

Almost all experienced surface players uses EMCON as long as they can 80%-90% of game.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

I look at all the data I have, try and classify.

You should do this before giving tracker! Most scenarios have intel informations about enemy. Checking first and second string from acoustic signature is very helpfull before you mark contact.
For example:
- all russian units have first freq. 50 Hz
- second string gives you tonnage factor
- third string gives you engine type
If you looking for Akula class you should mark all 50 205 contacts. This combination is not common for other units.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

If I can't identify then I slowly creep closer until I can.

Going slow is in most cases bad tactic. If you are slow i have only first string (50 or 60) but TMA gives me your predicted speed. If i have 3 contacts with only 60 Hz:
- 60 Hz moving 10 kts
- 60 Hz moving 12 kts
- 60 Hz moving 4 kts
...I send helo over third contact, because in most cases it is (newbie) player submarine.

Originally Posted by speed150mph

As others have mentioned, ships and subs have very different procedures to classify, with ships being easier since you have more options

No, you have less options. Let's compare subs and surfs
- good TA sonar - both
- ESM - both
- Active Interception - Subs and not all surfs (Udaloy and Bergamini have it)
- Periscope/visual detection - both (but sub have better)
- Radar - both (but surfs have better)
- Sonobuoys - only surf
- Helo - only surf
- MAD form Helo - only surf
- Mast detection - only surf
- using sensors (ex: radar) from differend possition than your ship - only surf
- Nixie - only surf
- Decoys - only sub
- LINK all the time - surf
- Anti Ship Missiles - only sub
- SUBROCs - some surfs (Udaloy, Bergamini)

Of course ASM and SUBROCS against proper target. Subs have SUBROCs but cant use it against Surfs. Surfs have ASM but they are useless against subs

Methods described by speed150mph looks like mix 2:1 (2 parts from Silent Hunter and one part from DW).

Fantastic post, good information!

[Nexus7]

Just I wonder how it's thinkable that subs have better visual and radar capabilities than surface

[p7p8]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Just I wonder how it's thinkable that subs have better visual and radar capabilities than surface

In my opinion surface units have better radar than submarines. Please read more carefully

Originally Posted by p7p8

- Radar - both (but surfs have better)

Periscopes have good magnification and sometimes IR and other modes. They can detect surfs from longer distance than surf can detect periscope mast, sail or even surfaced sub.

[Wildcat]

Using broadband sonar SOUND to get distance information is a ridiculous tactic in DW, the volume of the sound has nothing to do with the distance to a unit. There are many factors that come into play. Volume setting in the options screen, etc.

However if you're in a sub with a wide aperture array, you can use broadband to get instant ranging information if the signal is strong enough. WAA Range is quite accurate and you can pretty reliably make perfect TMA solutions with just the WAA range and broadband bearing.

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Using broadband sonar SOUND to get distance information is a ridiculous tactic in DW

It is, but who said it would work?
Wasn't it mentioned in regards of classification only?

[Wildcat]

Speed150 mentioned that he tries to guess the range of the target ship by listening in on the broadband sonar.

It doesn't work in DW. DW does not handle the broadband sounds very well, in fact it doesn't handle sounds well in general, the sound code was kind of kludged together as an afterthought so there are a lot of unusual problems, pops and clicks, bad loops, random volume problems etc.

Also I don't think the wav files used for the sounds were normalized correctly, so that means that the base volume for some sounds is high, while the base volume for other sounds is low. Makes it absolutely useless for gauging the range of an object by sound.

A better way is to look at the strength and thickness of the contact on the broadband. A thick, bright bar (or spike, in the russian subs) means it's either very noisy or it's very close. Ditto with DEMON bars. Using DEMON in combination with the quality of the broadband signal you can start making range estimates to help speed up your TMA.

But in any case, you can get a target's range within 4 minutes by simply taking a bearing, changing course and taking another bearing 2 minutes later. Once more and you'll have a perfect TMA solution even if the target is moving. Good enough to hit with any kind of homing torpedo.

[Nexus7]

I am still confused on how to classify and detect ships so that I can target them

With a sub, the frigate or the P3 Orion?

[speed150mph]

I want to clarify a few things.

First when I said options, I wasn't talking about which platform has more detection capabilities, I'm referring to the number of options you have, as a submarine captain, to identify a surface target vs a submerged target.

Secondly, I did not mean to give you the idea that I can accurately determine range from broadband sound. In the first critical seconds of a mission, or in the quickplay mission, to see which ships are close and which are far. And in dw many merchants make a diffent sound then warships, and submarines have a very different sound then surface ships.

This gives me an idea of what ships to prioritize in the first seconds. You have to understand that a lot of my play comes from quick missions in RA, which sometimes will put you less then a mile from a hostile sub or ship. Seeing that you have a sub that close that definately heard you in 5 seconds vs 50 seconds means that you can begin setting up a snap shot and preparing evasive maneuvers before the torpedo in the water warning comes vs after. This is a survival mechanism. After I have made sure that there are no immediate threats close aboard, I can use my narrowband and TMA to classify and gain accurate solutions against confirmed warships.