Soviet subs tactics

[caine007]

Awesome post Kapitan, thanks.

I've always been curious if the super-cavitating Shkval torpedo was a tactical game changer or not. Any thoughts?

At first I was like, "This thing is instant death" but after thinking about it a bit it seems like it's almost a step backwards having no real control or guidance?

300km/h is pretty nuts though and I guess it's not that hard guessing where a Supercarrier will be in the next few minutes but hitting a sub seems harder.

[FPSchazly]

Originally Posted by caine007

Awesome post Kapitan, thanks.

I've always been curious if the super-cavitating Shkval torpedo was a tactical game changer or not. Any thoughts?

At first I was like, "This thing is instant death" but after thinking about it a bit it seems like it's almost a step backwards having no real control or guidance?

300km/h is pretty nuts though and I guess it's not that hard guessing where a Supercarrier will be in the next few minutes but hitting a sub seems harder.

I definitely get the impression it's meant as a hard kill counter-measure (with or without nuclear weapons) or you strap a nuke to it, which makes it easier to hit a submarine. I've also seen someone mention that, with a nuclear warhead, it's meant to take out a boomer that is about to launch its missiles.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by caine007

Awesome post Kapitan, thanks.

I've always been curious if the super-cavitating Shkval torpedo was a tactical game changer or not. Any thoughts?

At first I was like, "This thing is instant death" but after thinking about it a bit it seems like it's almost a step backwards having no real control or guidance?

300km/h is pretty nuts though and I guess it's not that hard guessing where a Supercarrier will be in the next few minutes but hitting a sub seems harder.

The VA-111 is designed for a specific purpose to carry a nuclear warhead to the centre of a carrier group and detonate, it doesnt need to make contact with any hull or even be near by to cause huge effect.

The Skhval (VA-111) is a very impressive weapon and until recently the only one of its type in the world, the Chinese have copied it as have the Iranians and the Germans also tried it out.

While the Torpedo is extremely fast giving a submarine or a ship little to no chance of evasive manoeuvres it does have a drawback a big one, it has limited range and it is a big weapon.



Now bear in mind this is 1970's technology the range of the first generation Skhval which is a straight running torpedo and cannot be direct once launched it has a range of only 5-6nm and a nuclear blast of 20kt would affect the firing submarine yet a conventional warhead if it was to far away from target would do little.

Skhval 2 the more up to date version which came about in the mid 1990's offers up a guidance system with a vectored thrust possibility as yet not confirmed this means it does have some guidance system on board which may explain its wieght increase from 2.6tons to just over 3tons.
Skhval 2 also has a better range but still not anywhere near a conventional torpedo like the MK48 or Stingray although its speed is still there, the range of the Skhval 2 is estimated by the west to be between 12 and 15nm.
less advanced versions are for sale on the open market hence why China and Iran have shown interest.



The nose cone is movable and creates a bubble of gas in which the torpedo flies through thus it has been stated that it does have a guidance system in place, plus its seen to have movable fins too.



The back end also lends to speculation that it is in fact guided, look at the 5 o clock position there is what looks like a multi pin socket for wire guidance which again leads us to review that this could be steerable.

To be honest the technology is not mature enough i dont think to be of real value it is a show weapon the reality is the conventional torpedoes like the MK48's have much longer legs plus they are coupled with a very very good sensor systems for data collection and analysis the chances of getting the Russian boat close enough to fire one of these at a western submarine is slim.

however against an unsuspecting CVBG in some where like the Persian Gulf this would be extremely effective especially if nuclear tipped or sent by a conventional submarine sitting on the bottom in a littoral area (and yes project 636 Kilo can fire these).

[Ansgar Burkhard]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

The VA-111 is designed for a specific purpose to carry a nuclear warhead to the centre of a carrier group and detonate, it doesnt need to make contact with any hull or even be near by to cause huge effect.

The Skhval (VA-111) is a very impressive weapon and until recently the only one of its type in the world, the Chinese have copied it as have the Iranians and the Germans also tried it out.

While the Torpedo is extremely fast giving a submarine or a ship little to no chance of evasive manoeuvres it does have a drawback a big one, it has limited range and it is a big weapon.



Now bear in mind this is 1970's technology the range of the first generation Skhval which is a straight running torpedo and cannot be direct once launched it has a range of only 5-6nm and a nuclear blast of 20kt would affect the firing submarine yet a conventional warhead if it was to far away from target would do little.

Skhval 2 the more up to date version which came about in the mid 1990's offers up a guidance system with a vectored thrust possibility as yet not confirmed this means it does have some guidance system on board which may explain its wieght increase from 2.6tons to just over 3tons.
Skhval 2 also has a better range but still not anywhere near a conventional torpedo like the MK48 or Stingray although its speed is still there, the range of the Skhval 2 is estimated by the west to be between 12 and 15nm.
less advanced versions are for sale on the open market hence why China and Iran have shown interest.



The nose cone is movable and creates a bubble of gas in which the torpedo flies through thus it has been stated that it does have a guidance system in place, plus its seen to have movable fins too.



The back end also lends to speculation that it is in fact guided, look at the 5 o clock position there is what looks like a multi pin socket for wire guidance which again leads us to review that this could be steerable.

To be honest the technology is not mature enough i dont think to be of real value it is a show weapon the reality is the conventional torpedoes like the MK48's have much longer legs plus they are coupled with a very very good sensor systems for data collection and analysis the chances of getting the Russian boat close enough to fire one of these at a western submarine is slim.

however against an unsuspecting CVBG in some where like the Persian Gulf this would be extremely effective especially if nuclear tipped or sent by a conventional submarine sitting on the bottom in a littoral area (and yes project 636 Kilo can fire these).

Or launched by a swarm of fast attack boats in the persian gulf against a carrier battlegroup.

[Kapitan]

Currently the only type of submarine in the Persian gulf that can fire these weapons are the Kilo's its unlikely they would volley fire as not all the torpedo tubes are set up for such a weapon

Currently Iran has only 3 Kilos of the non improved type 877

[Shadriss]

Originally Posted by shipkiller1

Spoken like a true boomer sailor...
I made twelve deployments up north and yes, they really might employ active. Especially during a baffle clear...
Now though, with better sensors afforded to them, no so much.

But as you know, active is not the 'God like' sensor most people think it is...


FTCS(SS/SW)
1980-2004

Oh, I was also qualified Sonar Sup....

Oh, I did a little Fast boat time, Senior. Granted no deployments, but I got to see a little of the other side. Your point about using active for baffle clears is well made, but that certainly isn't what's going on in game terms here, which is the original question I think. And you are certainly right about the limitations of active as well - not remotely the god-like sensor games make it out to be. In another time and place, I would lament about the misinformation at length, but yeah...

As to Kapitan's post, yes, a nice write-up. The OSCAR won't be vanishing anytime soon, but at least initial replacement units are making it's way into the fleet in the form of the SEVERODVINSK SSGN. Not many in service, and they are some... interesting boats, shall we say... but they are capable. The TYPHOONs are all but out of service and have been for some time, so that fleet aspect is basically being covered by the DELTA IIIs and IVs, though they've got help coming in the form of the DOLGORUKY SSBN that's hit the fleet in the last few years as well. AKULA II isn't going anywhere anytime soon either... it's still the best attack boat they have, and they have been concentrating more on the strategic mission than ever before, so it's not likely to change soon.

They're still behind, but the gap gets closer all the time.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by Shadriss

Oh, I did a little Fast boat time, Senior. Granted no deployments, but I got to see a little of the other side. Your point about using active for baffle clears is well made, but that certainly isn't what's going on in game terms here, which is the original question I think. And you are certainly right about the limitations of active as well - not remotely the god-like sensor games make it out to be. In another time and place, I would lament about the misinformation at length, but yeah...

As to Kapitan's post, yes, a nice write-up. The OSCAR won't be vanishing anytime soon, but at least initial replacement units are making it's way into the fleet in the form of the SEVERODVINSK SSGN. Not many in service, and they are some... interesting boats, shall we say... but they are capable. The TYPHOONs are all but out of service and have been for some time, so that fleet aspect is basically being covered by the DELTA IIIs and IVs, though they've got help coming in the form of the DOLGORUKY SSBN that's hit the fleet in the last few years as well. AKULA II isn't going anywhere anytime soon either... it's still the best attack boat they have, and they have been concentrating more on the strategic mission than ever before, so it's not likely to change soon.

They're still behind, but the gap gets closer all the time.

The last Oscar was launched in 1996 K-150 Tomsk she is due for mid life refit and slated for upgrade to Project 949AM which is deleting the SS-N-19 missiles for Land attack missiles, We should see these submarines still about into the late 2020's atleast.
On another foot note to the Oscar the Belogorad which is a heavily modified and Lengthened submarine (now the longest in the world) launched this year she too was originally an Oscar II and will be around probably beyond 2035.

Typhoons only one is active TK208 but that should be going into layup this year or early next year they may keep it on but it all depends on the funds TK17 & TK20 have been in layup sine 2004 and wont return to service TK210 TK13 TK202 have already been cut up.
The Delta III and IV are being replaced by the Borei's and its likely the last Delta III will be gone by 2020 with the delta IV not far behind by 2025, so far only 12 Bories are slated for completion (replacing 14 boats)

The 4 modified Victor III (Victor IV) and early Akula's (Project 971) are slated to be replaced with the 12 Yasens that are on order, while the Akula Improved versions and Sierra's are slated to continue on into the 2020's, so far no replacement is announced and no commitment to further 6 Yasens options are on the drawing board

[The Bandit]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

The last Oscar was launched in 1996 K-150 Tomsk she is due for mid life refit and slated for upgrade to Project 949AM which is deleting the SS-N-19 missiles for Land attack missiles, We should see these submarines still about into the late 2020's atleast.
On another foot note to the Oscar the Belogorad which is a heavily modified and Lengthened submarine (now the longest in the world) launched this year she too was originally an Oscar II and will be around probably beyond 2035.

Typhoons only one is active TK208 but that should be going into layup this year or early next year they may keep it on but it all depends on the funds TK17 & TK20 have been in layup sine 2004 and wont return to service TK210 TK13 TK202 have already been cut up.
The Delta III and IV are being replaced by the Borei's and its likely the last Delta III will be gone by 2020 with the delta IV not far behind by 2025, so far only 12 Bories are slated for completion (replacing 14 boats)

The 4 modified Victor III (Victor IV) and early Akula's (Project 971) are slated to be replaced with the 12 Yasens that are on order, while the Akula Improved versions and Sierra's are slated to continue on into the 2020's, so far no replacement is announced and no commitment to further 6 Yasens options are on the drawing board

If I'm not mistaken the only Typhoon left was just for Bulava missile testing and no longer has any strategic role. They made some noise a few years earlier about dragging the other two out of moth-balls but that was before all of these sanctions and the like, can only imagine what a nightmare getting something like that which has been sitting around for 10+ years sea-worthy and operational again, just as well off to build something new.