Anyone familiar with Luftwaffe (WW2) Aircraft ID codes?

[Von Due]

Here's the thing:

There is one particular aircraft that flew during WW2 before being shot down. It was a Heinkel 111 with the ID code 5J + CN. I am attempting to place that aircraft in the squadron it flew, if possible down to its number within the squadron, so to know that plane's individual place in the squadron.

Here's what I got so far:
The bombers were organized in Combat Wings (KG) and Combat Wing 4 (KG4) had the code 5J, so this aircraft was part of KG4, which I already knew but this verified that 5J was indeed referring to KG4.

Then things get a bit cloudier but a couple of things from Wikipedia:
Each KG was organized in groups (Gruppe). At the time this aircraft was shot down in late April 1940, KG4 consisted of 3 groups + HQ (Gruppe I, Gr. II and Gr. III + HQ).
Each Gruppe would consist of 3 squadrons (Staffel) where the Sqdr. 1-3 were in Gr I, Sqdr 4-6 in Gr.2 and so on and so forth.

This aircraft flew in sqdr. 5, in Gr. II. in KG4. This I know for a fact. It adds up to what Wiki says about number of squadrons per group.

From https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschwaderkennung and http://www.luftfahrt-erfurt.de/seite14.htm it seems obvious that the N in CN refers to Sqrd. 5, therefor also Gr. II. However, those 2 pages appear to disagree in the C.

From the German Wiki (I don't read German really but I think I could make out the few bits I needed above) it appears that the C would refer to Gr. II which would make sense. Then CN would spell out Gr. II/Sqdr. 5 but that other page has another bomber in the same KG named BN and if I would follow the same system as on Wiki, that B would refer to Gr. I and not (as it seems to me) the 2nd individual plane in squadron 5 (N, Gr. II).

Could any of you who do read German tell me if I read that thing totally wrong or if there is a discrepancy between the 2 pages?

Would any of you happen to know how to read the ID codes down to the smallest details it offers?

I am thinking: Would it make sense to ID individual aircrafts down to squadron size only and not down to individual aircrafts? I would think not but that the CN part does indeed tell which individual craft we have here. I am going for

5J = KG4
C = 3rd plane in
N = squadron 5 (therefor Gr.II)

but would appreciate any Germanspeaking person or someone familiar with these codes to verify or tell me I'm wrong. The older system they used as explained in the 2nd link seems to say F was plane 7 but I can't seem to work out how F could mean plane 7 and not 6.

[Dowly]

Yes, I think you are correct.

5J+CN

5J = KG 4
C= Aircraft 3 (C), Staffel 5 (Colour)
N = Staffel 5, II Gruppe

[Eichhörnchen]

I'd concur with your final assessment (presuming that the individual aircraft letter is RED??)... you have an aircraft of 5 Staffel. How much further you can go than this I'm not certain, but there could be (I think) as many as 16 aircraft in a Staffel.

[Von Due]

Thanks for the input guys and yeah, the colour thing: What I think is, the colour code was used on the letter signifying individual planes but the colour itself was determined by whether the plane belonged to the 1st, 2nd or 3rd squadron in a group, bearing in mind the 1st squadron of Gr. 2 was 4. Staffel, 2nd squadron of Gr. 3 was 8. Staffel and so on.
The letter C is red, signifying it belongs to the 2nd squadron in its Gruppe (1st squadron would be white, 3rd squadron would be yellow, ref. the Wiki page.).

This adds up to the plane flying in the 5th (N) squadron and that squadron being the 2nd in its Gruppe.

EDIT: Just realized that if any of this is actually true, that this is how it actually worked back then, then the Fighter Wings (JG) had a completely different system I have absolutely no idea how worked, seeing lots of pics of fighters using only a single coloured number, then _perhaps_ but not always, a symbol, decal or something tailside of the cross. Sometimes there was nothing but a coloured number and the cross, and the colour scheme included more colours than the 3 for bomber squadrons. Then, to make matters worse, sometimes they didn't use any number at all, just a single symbol nose-side of the cross.

[Jimbuna]

A mine of information in the links below.

http://www.rlm.at/cont/archiv02_e.htm

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/markings.html

http://www.ww2.dk/misc/unitid.htm

http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?t=11524&start=10

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Von Due

EDIT: Just realized that if any of this is actually true, that this is how it actually worked back then, then the Fighter Wings (JG) had a completely different system I have absolutely no idea how worked, seeing lots of pics of fighters using only a single coloured number, then _perhaps_ but not always, a symbol, decal or something tailside of the cross. Sometimes there was nothing but a coloured number and the cross, and the colour scheme included more colours than the 3 for bomber squadrons. Then, to make matters worse, sometimes they didn't use any number at all, just a single symbol nose-side of the cross.

ROFL! Yes, the system JGs used sure was different.

First of all, unit ID was done by placing the unit emblem near the nose or the cockpit.

The fuselage markings consisted of individual plane #, squadron and group.

Plane # and squadron were forward of the Cross, a colored number or colored outline of the number.

Squadron 1: White
Squadron 2: Red or Black
Squadron 3: Yellow

(Squadron 4, if used: Blue)

After the Cross was the group identifier. These could be colored with the squadron color or left black.

Group I: none
Group II: horizontal bar
Group III: wavy line or vertical bar
Group IV: half wavy line, + or a filled circle.

So, a fighter with fuselage markings 3#~
Aircraft #3
Group III (wavy line)
8. Squadron (red color)
i.e. 8./JG X

The symbols replacing the number forward of the Cross were used by staff. Group commander would have a << symbol instead of a number, group adjutant < etc. etc.

Oh and these all might be a little different from JG to JG.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that the squadron # was a running number, so Group I would have 1-3, Group II 4-6, Group III 7-9.

Unless, of course, the unit had 4 squadrons per group.

[Von Due]

Top notch posts by both of you there

On a slight side note: For personal emblems, I have to give it to A. Galland,he must have had some good connections allowing him to paint Mickey Mouse on his personal plane. Also, he flew what was probably the only fighter in the airforce with a cigar lighter installed in the cockpit Quite the dandy fellow.

Anyway, looks like my original quest has been completed. Thanks again for the inputs, guys.

[Sailor Steve]

Have you read Galland's book, The First And The Last? It's a good one.

[Von Due]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Have you read Galland's book, The First And The Last? It's a good one.

I haven't but thanks for the heads up

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Von Due

Here's the thing:

There is one particular aircraft that flew during WW2 before being shot down. It was a Heinkel 111 with the ID code 5J + CN. I am attempting to place that aircraft in the squadron it flew, if possible down to its number within the squadron, so to know that plane's individual place in the squadron.

U mean this one?

Early in the morning of the 26th April 1940, four members of KG 4 took off in their Heinkel He111 P-2 5J+CN from Fernebu, Oslo in Norway. One of three Heinkels tasked with attacking the town of Andalsnes, the bomber was damaged by the guns of HMS Manchester. Unable to keep formation with the other Heinkels the crew were then taken by surprise by two Blackburn Skuas of No. 801 Squadron FAA from HMS Ark Royal.
The pilot of Skua A7-A unleashed a hail of machine gun fire on the bomber - killing flight engineer Willi Stock. With one engine failing and the other on fire, pilot Richard Gumbrecht had no choice but to force-land somewhere among the snow covered mountains below. With Stock dead, the remaining three crew members escaped the wreckage and made their way down the mountain. The largely intact Heinkel sat on the mountain for over 30 years, before being recovered and restored by the Norwegian Armed Forces Aircraft Collection.

I have it in my extensive Corgi collection
Fornebu Airfield, Oslo under Luftwaffe control. note photo date vs mission date-the plane is probably in the shot! http://www.nuav.net/ooblw.html Your BBY is currently on display at the Norwegian Armed Forces Aircraft Collection
note the stylish 'c' also in the unit emblem.

[Eichhörnchen]

Fascinating... I'm wondering whether anyone has painted that yet?

[Von Due]

That would be the very same and one. I know it's there, I was fortunate to get a close look at it in the late 70's when it was undergoing restoration. Also met 2 of the surviving crewmembers including the skipper, as well as 2 of the Brits from 801st who shot it down. They were gathered for a memorial service for the gunner Willi Stock who was killed in the battle. Also present, IIRC (at least she came up here at some point) was Willi's daughter.





EDIT: Come to think of it. They sure had rotten luck. Taking part in the Polish campaign and was shot down early without casualties. Transfered to Norway where they again were shot down on one of their first sorties, this time for good. The 111 was a sleek plane, in the 30's but by 1940 it was as modern as a T-ford.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Eichhörnchen

Fascinating... I'm wondering whether anyone has painted that yet?

Wonder no more:
Hey! U could do model box tops too!!

well as 2 of the Brits from 801st who shot it down.

Good to hear that from 'first person' source...You! I had tried to track the shooters but Skua pilots did not fare so well often being mis ID'd by RAF and gunners and outclassed by Me 109 from the start. That said; a few firsts:

The Blackburn Skua can claim several significant firsts to its name. It was the Fleet Air Arm's first stressed skin mono-plane aircraft and also the first British aircraft specifically designed for dive-bombing duties. It was also first British built dive bomber and the first aircraft to shoot down an enemy aircraft in WW2 (a Dornier flying boat on 25th Sept 1939)Shooting down the first enemy aircraft of World War II would be a notable achievement for any record, and this too can be claimed by a Blackburn Skua. On 25th September 1939, Lt. Cdr. B.S. McEwan RN (803 Naval Air Squadron) and P.O. Brian Seymour, operating from H.M.S Ark Royal, shot down a German Dornier Do18 flying boat whilst on air patrol off the Norwegian coast.
Blackburn Skuas were at the forefront of the Norwegian campaign, often operating at the extreme limit of their range and under gruelling North Sea conditions. Despite these limiting factors, Skuas of No. 800 and 803 NAS, managed to successfully dive bomb and sink the German cruiser Konigsberg, in Bergen Fjord, Norway, on the 10th April 1940. On 10 April 1940, 16 Skuas of 800 and 803 NAS . sank the German cruiser Königsberg in Bergen harbour during Operation Weserübung, the German invasion of Norway. This was the first major warship ever to be sunk by dive bombing, indeed the first major warship ever sunk in war by air attack

[Von Due]

Found this

26th - At 0700 the destroyers GRENADE, BEAGLE, FORTUNE, VOLUNTEER, ENCOUNTER and ESCORT joined the force from Narvik.
At 0725 the destroyers HYPERION, HEREWARD, HASTY, FEARLESS, FURY and JUNO detached and proceeded to Sullom Voe to refuel.
At 1000 the ARK ROYAL was in position 65-08N, 5-28E. At this time the weather cleared and there were clear blue skies and she launched six Skuas, 7A, 7B, 7C, 7F, 7G & 7H of 801 Sqd for a fighter patrol over Aandalnes

[REPORT of 801 Sqd
The squadron took off in perfect visibility and made a good landfall at Bud climbing to 10, 000 feet. The CURACOA was seen at Andalsnes and the squadron proceeded up the valley towards Gladiator Lake at 1120, two Gladiators were seen to take off. The swept runway was most conspicuous and numerous bomb craters were seen all over the lake.
Having circled the lake, the patrol was continued back towards Aandalsnes. Three He 111Ps of Kampfstaffel 5./II./KG 4, from Fornebu, were then seen approaching from the opposite direction and slightly below in line ahead formation.
The whole Squadron in turn attacked the rearmost enemy aircraft which hurriedly dropped its bombs. The starboard engine was put on fire by Lieutenant Commander H. Bramwell in 7A and the port engine by Lieutenant (A) W. Martin in 7C. This aircraft lost height and was seen to crash into a snowdrift; at Digervarden Lesja, two crew were seen to get out.
(This aircraft had taken off from Fornebu at 1000/26/4/40 on a mission to attack shipping at Andalsnes. During its attack on shipping in Romsdalsfjord it hit and damaged by AA fire from the MANCHESTER. The damaged Heinkel was then attacked by Skuas 7A & 7C, and made a forced landing)
The second He 111P was then attacked by Sub Lieutenant Wigginton in 7B, and the starboard engine put on fire. This aircraft was last seen losing height with smoke pouring from it. Meanwhile, the leading He 111P beat a hasty retreat towards the coast.
The Squadron then reformed and returned to ARK ROYAL, landing on at 1330]

from
http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chr..._Ark_Royal.htm

The Skua was more a bite than a He111 would be happy to chew, despite the Skua was pretty outdated itself. The 111 was fast but seriously underprotected and Ark Royal's Skuas enjoyed quite a few victories. Lucky for the Brits the mainstay of the German fighter force in Norway was the 110 which was only slightly more of a threat as a fighter than a sitting duck.

[Commander Wallace]

Just learned a lot about aircraft information and codes that I didn't know, I didn't know.