Question about Type VII ballast tanks

[Gotmilk]

haha gotcha.

Thanks a lot.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Gotmilk

Thanks a lot.

Wouldn't that be "tanks a lot"?

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Wouldn't that be "tanks a lot"?

No, there are only five
(stand-in for Schroeder )

[Onkel Neal]

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

Sounds like a magic - hope it is "full-real" mode only...

[Onkel Neal]

I have no idea what you mean.

[Catfish]

I think this sounds too good to be true, this would be the first sub simulation ever to give you such control!

We err you cannot model each and every aspect of a rather complicated U-boat unless we had 50 trained online players, which will be unreasonable anyway, so this looks like a reasonable compromise

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

I have no idea what you mean.

#1. A lot of orders, included criticals (closing voicetube / tower hatch).
I'm afraid to ask: what with singleplayer / 2-players procedure of crash diving?

#2. Remembering this scene of Duke Nukem 3D (1996)...


Will we able to close toilet valve after using it to prevent fate like U-1206?

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

EPIC

[THE_MASK]

Will there be something to do regarding loading torps ? 4 crew but 5 jobs etc . Which one do you leave out for the moment . I would hate to be stuck down the back the whole gametime with not much to do while in multiplayer . Maybe there could be an aft torpedo that can only be manually loaded from the rear compartment crew member . Maybe have some diesel engine maintenance or something . I would love to see the blue flames come out of the engine like in Das Boot .

[Jojojung]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

So, we are deciding to model three discrete sets of ballast tanks:
MBT #2
MBT #4
Negative tanks

Sure, we could include all the tanks, including trim and torpedo compensating tanks but we only have 4 players (not a real human crew of 48), so it makes sense to design the game so that 3 or 4 guys can manage it without this activity becoming a burden that takes away from the gameplay. You know, finding a smart balance so that the players have some procedural activity without turning this into real work.

Here's the current crash dive game procedure:

1. Order: "Alarm!" Alarm bell activated by Chief.
2. Chief switches from diesel to electric motors, then orders ahead flank.
3. Captain closes voice tube on the bridge, descends into conning tower.
4. Exec takes a depth sounding, reports depth under keel.
5. Exec marks on chart where boat’s location is at the start of the dive.
6. Captain closes conning tower hatch, says “Conning tower hatch is closed"
7. Chief silences alarm bell.
8. Chief sets dive planes to forward hard down.
9. Captain orders “Flood”
10. Chief opens the MBT #4 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
11. Exec opens the MBT #2 vent valves allowing seawater in the main ballast tanks.
12. Chief opens the Negative vent valve allowing seawater in the negative tank.
13. Captain sets depth with order “Go to depth, xx meters.” (At the front usually to 80 meters)
14. Once the down angle indicator indicates the boat has a down angle, hold: 8 to 15°
15. Chief closes vent valve for negative tank and blows tank to control dive before desired depth is reached. After execution of the order "Flood" and the boat has a noticeable descending tendency, the negative buoyancy tanks are expressed (blown by compressed air), by the Chief, who will call out, “Express”. It is critical that the Chief perform the crash dive operation competently, otherwise the boat could dive out of control, below safe depth, or with a dangerous down angle.
16. The ordered depth is achieved by the Chief’s operation of the dive planes.
17. After the report of Chief: "Boat is at xx meters", the order always follows, Captain: "Close vents".
18. Chief and Exec closes MBT vents valve.
19. Exec checks bilge level and reports any leaks or problems, “No leaks detected, Herr Kaleun”.
20. Chief checks compressed air level and reports, “Compressed air at xx millibar, Herr Kaleun”.
21. Captain orders new speed, course as necessary.
22. Chief reports battery status, “Both batteries at xxxx amps, Herr Kaleun”.
23. Sonar reports any contacts.

I think this might be the correct Diving procedure, but i think Point 12 is not correct. The so called "Untertriebszelle" is filled with seawater in an wartime Trip on surface.its is blow out when the bridge gets under the waterline. The "untertriebszelle" should allow a much quicker diving time.

That means that the small „untertriebszelle“ in Wolfpack should filled with seawater on surface at begin of the patrol, when the game get it right.

[Jojojung]

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.

[derstosstrupp]

Originally Posted by Jojojung

In a german type VIIC there are 5 different forms of ballast tanks with the correct german vocabulary:

1) Tauchzellen = MBT
2) Regelzellen = Regulation Tanks (own translation) for fitting the boat to different watertemperature, salinity, consumption of supplies etc.
3) Trimmzellen = Tanks to keep the horizontal diving position (to compensate the heavy wight of the diesel engines f.e.)
4) Untertriebszelle = crash dive Tank
5) Torpedoregelzelle = are filled immediatly when the torpedo gets out, to compensate the lost of wight and prevent a liftup of the bow

The diesel fuel was also stored in the saddle tanks outside. The fuel was swimming on the seawater in the saddletanks. When the fuel gets empty over the time, more and more seawater gets through the openings on the bottom of the saddletank and the boat gets heavier over the time. So the Regelzellen have to blow out more and more to hold the correct position.

I’d be a big advocate of fleshing out this part of the game. As it stands now, depthkeeping is a bit too easy IMHO. Maybe build in trim and regulator tanks and introduce a randomization factor to throw the boat out of trim each mission requiring pumping fore/aft between trim tanks and use of the regulator tank (negative is kind of a proxy now for that once at depth). Would be interesting to have to pump forward/aft on firing a torpedo too.

[Jojojung]

In this picture you see the handling of the quick vents for the quick flooding of the MBT (Tauchzellen) for a crash dive.