Special abilities question

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by TorpX

I don't know what you refer to when you use the term tachometer.

It's a device that counts engine revolutions. You can judge your speed by the revolutions. Unfortunately the problems I mentioned earlier make it less accurate the faster you travel

While the Bendix log would not be as accurate as a timed trial, great care was taken to calibrate it for accurate results. If it had not been accurate, the firing solutions genarated by the TDC, would not have been sound.

I see. I apologize for being unfamiliar with the instrument, but a careful study here brought me up to date.
http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/log/index.htm

The first thing I notice is that it operates on a similar principle to the pitot tube. This may affect accuracy at high speeds, or it may not. As I said, I'm not saying it didn't happen, just listing the reasons why I tend to question it.

Perhaps not, but there are more variables here in a Gato or any sub, than with a battleship. Current displacement, and charge on the battery would affect this. Do timed trials usually involve pushing engines beyond their design limits?

No, the variables are the same. Any ship trial is conducted with as light a load as possible, and as much power as possible, the goal being to make the ship look as good as possible to the potential buyer (in this case of course the navy). In the case of a submarine it would require the batteries be fully charged of course, and the engines are pushed absolutely as fast as they'll go. With that in mind I would insist that 20.25 knots was the best speed on the best day, maybe getting to 21 if you're lucky.

Of course you are free to accept whatever sources you choose, but I am inclined to take O'Kane's word for it, as he has spent more time in fleetboats than I.

And that's the crux of the matter. On the one hand anecdotal evidence is always suspect, especially given possible variations in measuring equipment. On the other hand anecdotal evidence is vital because sometimes it really is true.

On the other other hand I don't lie and I don't cheat, so when I find something that supports an opposing argument I don't sweep it under the rug. I tracked down Bubblehead1980's mention of Fluckey and Barb, and sure enough he not only claimed to have made 23.5 knots using "150% overload", however that works with a diesel engine, but was officially credited with a world speed record for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_B._Fluckey

Again, I'm no engineer, but I do have a basic understanding of how these things work, and while Bubblehead "has no doubt" that it happened, I still do. But you have your statements from the people who were there, and I can't dispute their claims. I can, however, question the equipment, but I can't prove it. You talked about the accuracy during an attack, but an attack takes place at 2 knots, not 20. Are the instruments accurate at higher speeds? Car speedometers and aircraft air speed indicators are not.

So it's an impasse. But I will leave you with one question: If it's realistic to allow the special ability to boost the speed that much, is it still realistic to not have any chance of an engine breakdown at the worst possible moment? To my mind you can't have one without the other and still claim realism.

[TorpX]

No, the variables are the same. Any ship trial is conducted with as light a load as possible, and as much power as possible, the goal being to make the ship look as good as possible to the potential buyer (in this case of course the navy). In the case of a submarine it would require the batteries be fully charged of course, and the engines are pushed absolutely as fast as they'll go. With that in mind I would insist that 20.25 knots was the best speed on the best day, maybe getting to 21 if you're lucky.

You may be right, but it is still hard for me to believe they would push engines far past their limits in peacetime trials. Or maybe the boats became lighter during refits?

...claimed to have made 23.5 knots using "150% overload", however that works with a diesel engine, but was officially credited with a world speed record for it.

I don't know enough about this sort of thing to even guess. 150% does sound incredible.

You talked about the accuracy during an attack, but an attack takes place at 2 knots, not 20. Are the instruments accurate at higher speeds?

I skimmed through the manual for the Bendix log. I didn't see any standard for accuracy, but they did calibrate them at 2 speeds minimum (low and high) and at as many as possible, time permitting. They had to be good not just during a submerged attack, but throughout an approach, surfaced or submerged. The maintainace/ calibration proceedures were very involved. They were obviously considered important.

And that's the crux of the matter. On the one hand anecdotal evidence is always suspect, especially given possible variations in measuring equipment. On the other hand anecdotal evidence is vital because sometimes it really is true.

Agree.

So it's an impasse. But I will leave you with one question: If it's realistic to allow the special ability to boost the speed that much, is it still realistic to not have any chance of an engine breakdown at the worst possible moment? To my mind you can't have one without the other and still claim realism.

I agree completely. The magic-engines that never break down is a weak point in the game. So is the rocket-like acceleration of everything. What is the speed advantage of the special abilities anyway? I had assumed it was a mod-dependent thing. I've never had it in the game, so I never gave it much thought before.

[Sailor Steve]

I think we're agreed that we don't have a definitive answer, and may never. The only thing I'm still insisting on at this point is the trials. For surface ships they really did pull out all the stops, running with no ammunition, no stores, minimum crew and fuel, and gave it everything they had. In the early days of destroyers (British, 1892), when they were coal-fired, they actually doubled the shovellers, working them in two shifts, ten minutes at a time, so they were shovelling their absolute hardest all the time.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any official trial data for any submarines. I suspect they didn't run speed trials because nobody cared if they could reach their designed speeds. After all, no sub is going to outrun a destroyer (pre-nuke of course).

[Bubblehead1980]

Everyone else responded basically as I would have Steve, so I will keep my response short.(Afterthough, well I tried to keep it short lol)

I recall the O' Kane saying they "pushed their engines" to the limit and were making 22 knots during the rescue of downed pilots at Truk.Reports of downed pilots were coming in and forcing them to making high speed runs all over the area.Time was of the essence in order to save US lives so he allowed this.CLEAR THE BRIDGE! is the book I read this in.

Admiral Eugene Fluckey mentioned in THUNDER BELOW that the Barb made 23 knots for a time during his escape after the Namkwan Harbor raid in early 1945, which secured him the Medal of Honor.You prob are aware the waters were too shallow to dive and they were dodging radar equipped patrol boats/destroyers, really needed the speed so pushing the engines and risking danger was justified.

The book "Maru Killer" by Dave Bauslog details Seahorse spotting a Japanese TF which included Yamato on 15 June 1944(heading for Mariana Islands to combat the US invasion) and sent a contact report, which Cutter would later see as his most significant contribution to the war.Cutter wanted to attack but was not in a favorable position, he ordered the engines pushed to limits in an attempt to keep up and overtake the group in addition to shadowing and sending more reports to ComSubPac but was not able and was forced to slow down or damage the engines due to the amount of time the engines were operated outside normal parmaters.I believe the engines did suffer some damage due to the protracted pursuit at high speeds.


Now, I have not read these books in a while but am POSITIVE I read this in all three.O' Kane and Fluckey were actually there, in command so sure they would not have printed such if it were not true.They were intelligent men who had no doubt that their bendix log's reading was accurate, esp after they gave permission to push the engines to their limits so would not have put this in their books if there was any significant chance of error.Bauslog became pretty close with survivors of Seahorse including Slade Cutter himself while writing his book, I believe his account since so much of it was indeed obtained first hand from the men who actually were there.

I am no expert on diesel electric drives but no doubt there are set safe operating parameters that they abided by mostly, even in trials etc(could be wrong, just saying) that the chiefs, motor macs etc were taught to abide by these parameters but they were no doubt aware of how to get extra performance.The guys in the manuvering room could no doubt squeez extra juice out which would in turn push the diesels harder, even though they were not supposed to, if so ordered.


I believe it is realistic to be able to gain 22 knots or so for a short time in the game(just a few hours if you activate the officers ability).While I have always been bothered but the lack of equipment failure in SH 4 , esp with old boats like the S boats or Porpoises etc The time limit on the ability is a sort of stand in, you save it for when you really need it and only have it for a few hours which simulates RL in a way since you would have to slow down or damage your engines/drive, like Cutter had to do in June 1944.

When I have time, i'll find the specific chapters and pages in the book mentioning the incidents.Like others who posted before me, I'll take the words of O'Kane, Fluckey, and Cutter(via Bauslog) over anything else because they were there, had no reason to lie and it is entirely possible.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

I'll take the words of O'Kane, Fluckey, and Cutter(via Bauslog) over anything else because they were there, had no reason to lie and it is entirely possible.

Did you read my post? I carefully discussed the problems with anecdotal accounts, from both sides, and even linked to the Wiki page in which Fluckey was officially credited with a speed record, giving you the credit in the process. I don't question their integrity or their abilities. TorpX and I sort of reached a consensus on the problems both ways, and now here you are going back over the same ground. If you don't want to investigate with us, fine, but it looks to me like you're the gamers I was describing. You only look at one side because that's what you want to believe. So you completely ignore my last comments about how we'll never know for certain.

But, if you're going to insist on continuing this you need to explain what "150% overload means". Did they suddenly get 9750 horsepower out of an engine rated for 6500? It is a characteristic of all onboard speed measuring equipment to be increasingly inaccurate with increasing speed. Your car's speedometer is a victim of this, as is a mechanical air-speed indicator. Are the sub's measuring devises perfect? I said I don't know. I said I still have doubts, but that's part of my nature - I don't believe anything until I have hard facts, and in this case there don't seem to be any. Maybe they were right. Maybe they were wrong. I don't know, but I've studied enough details about how ships operate over the last two decades that I question how this could be accomplished, and I'll continue to do so. Believe what you want, but I've long held that any change to a game based on anything other than solid proof is a bad idea.

But the developers allow it, and you are free to use it and to justify it however you want. I only stated my opinion and gave my reasons, nothing more.

[EricW]

OMFG, You guys are still going off on this..........
I can see wanting some form of proof for these things, personally I don't have the time or desire to find another copy of Clear the Bridge to list out page numbers. I'm glad its kinda settled, maybe.

I just got off a very disappointing attack involving a lone Nagaro, six prematures, two duds and two misses......all ten tubes.

special abilities right here

Its a GAME- albeit my fave.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by 0rpheus

Jumping in with a related question here - in my TMO games, there's a crewman you can 'buy' who converts two of the ballast tanks to fuel tanks to improve surface range, but whenever I've 'bought' him and taken him out, it says 'skill disabled'. Come to think of it, it even says 'skill disabled' before you 'buy' him from the crew screen. He's in the right compartment, though I forget which one.

Anyone seen this, any ideas?

That is a leftover ability.I remember in the readme when Duci reworked the speeds and ranges he accounted for the extra range subs would have with ballast tanks.Basically, you always have that extra fuel, no need for the crewmember.I applauded this decision as it was standard if subs were going to far flung patrol areas.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Did you read my post? I carefully discussed the problems with anecdotal accounts, from both sides, and even linked to the Wiki page in which Fluckey was officially credited with a speed record, giving you the credit in the process. I don't question their integrity or their abilities. TorpX and I sort of reached a consensus on the problems both ways, and now here you are going back over the same ground. If you don't want to investigate with us, fine, but it looks to me like you're the gamers I was describing. You only look at one side because that's what you want to believe. So you completely ignore my last comments about how we'll never know for certain.

But, if you're going to insist on continuing this you need to explain what "150% overload means". Did they suddenly get 9750 horsepower out of an engine rated for 6500? It is a characteristic of all onboard speed measuring equipment to be increasingly inaccurate with increasing speed. Your car's speedometer is a victim of this, as is a mechanical air-speed indicator. Are the sub's measuring devises perfect? I said I don't know. I said I still have doubts, but that's part of my nature - I don't believe anything until I have hard facts, and in this case there don't seem to be any. Maybe they were right. Maybe they were wrong. I don't know, but I've studied enough details about how ships operate over the last two decades that I question how this could be accomplished, and I'll continue to do so. Believe what you want, but I've long held that any change to a game based on anything other than solid proof is a bad idea.

But the developers allow it, and you are free to use it and to justify it however you want. I only stated my opinion and gave my reasons, nothing more.

No Steve, I was not ignoring your post.I am no "gamer" and it's not that I believe in it because I want it to be true, I feel that it is based on the evidence.The evidence is that several highly respected skippers stated in writing that they did this, in addition that no crewmember or anyone else has disputed this(as far as I can tell) in the many years that have passed since these incidents occured.Additionally, there was evidence of them moving faster such as Seahorse's encounter with the TF one June 15, 1944.The Seahorse who on paper could only make 20.25 knots yet were able to keep up with a TF or battleships, cruisers, destroyers(carriers I think, can not recall) that were(if I recall correctly) making 25-26 knots.Now running full bore at the paper speed of 20.25, they wouldnt be able to keep them in sight for long, yet when they pushed their engines, they were making 22 or so knots, were able to keep them in sight at a distance for a while until had to take the strain off less they do serious damage.

The Barb would be another example.Barb had a destroyer/PB type that was closing fast and they could not open the distance, the small amount of extra speed enabled them to pull away.

So if the instruments were incorrect and they were not making the speeds they recorded then most likely Seahorse would not have been able to keep up and Barb would not have been able to get away.I almost forgot Tang, who would not have been able to cover such a large area so quickly when rescuing pilots.

I get your point of view and skepticism, I normally share it with just about anything but feel it's unwarranted here because if you count the word of highly respected naval officers and crew, the time that has elapsed without dispute(again that I know of), and again, the results.Seahorse kept up while running flat out, Barb escaped.Tang was able to cover enough ocean to rescue many aviators and aircrew shot down during the Truk raid.I am sure other boats in the war operated at higher speeds, possibe some outside the Gato/Balao/Tench classes than they were supposed to be able to accomplish and odds are some may have had incorrect readings but we know of these three due to their stellar war records and books.The results speak for themselves in the well documented cases.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

The evidence is that several highly respected skippers stated in writing that they did this, in addition that no crewmember or anyone else has disputed this(as far as I can tell) in the many years that have passed since these incidents occured.

How would they? Why would they doubt their skipper's word, if they ever even knew about the report?

Additionally, there was evidence of them moving faster such as Seahorse's encounter with the TF one June 15, 1944.The Seahorse who on paper could only make 20.25 knots yet were able to keep up with a TF or battleships, cruisers, destroyers(carriers I think, can not recall) that were(if I recall correctly) making 25-26 knots.

Twenty-six? Now I'm worried. A task force normally cruises at 15 knots. If they're going somewhere in a hurry they can do 30. Neither of those is 22 or 26.

Now running full bore at the paper speed of 20.25, they wouldnt be able to keep them in sight for long, yet when they pushed their engines, they were making 22 or so knots, were able to keep them in sight at a distance for a while until had to take the strain off less they do serious damage.

Sorry, but which is it, 26 or 22? Twenty-two I can accept, even though I'm still doubtful.

The Barb would be another example.Barb had a destroyer/PB type that was closing fast and they could not open the distance, the small amount of extra speed enabled them to pull away.

If it was a destroyer then it could make 36 knots on a good day. If it was a patrol boat, what kind? Not one of the Japanese patrol boat classes could reach 20 knots, let alone 22.
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/a/Patrol_Boats.htm

Also, if there was a Japanese submarine chaser that could make 22-23 knots, what shape was this one in? Fouled bottoms slow ships down. Engines in need of serviceing slow ships down.
Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen, or that it couldn't happen, but you see my problem?

I get your point of view and skepticism, I normally share it with just about anything but feel it's unwarranted here because if you count the word of highly respected naval officers and crew, the time that has elapsed without dispute(again that I know of), and again, the results. Seahorse kept up while running flat out, Barb escaped.

Possibly it wasn't disputed for the simple reason that nobody thought of it. On the other hand it could be true.

Tang was able to cover enough ocean to rescue many aviators and aircrew shot down during the Truk raid.

It's been too many years since I read that account. Did they go everywhere at flank speed? While this would burn a lot of fuel, late in the war it might be warranted.

I am sure other boats in the war operated at higher speeds, possibe some outside the Gato/Balao/Tench classes than they were supposed to be able to accomplish and odds are some may have had incorrect readings but we know of these three due to their stellar war records and books.

Being sure about other boats isn't recorded data. I've been sure about a lot of things in my life, and been wrong in many cases. Don't be sure unless you have facts in hand.

The results speak for themselves in the well documented cases.

Not really, and for the reasons I've just cited. Anecdotal evidence, even from the most reliable sources, can only take you so far.

[TorpX]

I hesitate to add anymore to this, lest it turn into a prolonged argument. TBH, I'm not all that invested in the crew special ability thing, but I can think of a few possibilities that could explain why the boats were able to substantially exceed their "maximum" speed.

1. The boats had their fairwaters cut down. Displacement reduced.

2. New screws. The Tang had high-tech screws designed to reduce cavitation and make the boat quieter.

3. Possibly, the "maximum" speed was based on what power the diesels could supply (full speed), and not what power the engines and battery could supply (flank speed). This flank speed could only be sustained for a limited period regardless of the diesels condition, as the battery would discharge and the speed would fall off. This might be what the "150 % overload" means; diesel + battery power = 150% diesel power alone.

Just a possibility.

[Sailor Steve]

Good points. My final answer is "I don't know". Reducing weight would obviously help a little, but hydrodynamic drag is the real limiting factor, and the fineness (length-beam) ratio isn't going to change, and that's the real cause of limitations to top speed. Your points about the engines and the batteries make sense. I have no idea how much actual increase you would get that way, but the engines are rated at 6500 hp and the electric motors rated at 2740 hp, which is 42%, which would not get a 42% increase in speed but might account for an extra two knots. But if that was really possible you probably wouldn't need a 'special ability' to do it, just a competent engineer. Game-wise, increased chance of a breakdown plus having your batteries drain at the same time might be a fair trade-off. One set of worries in exchange for another. Too bad these games don't take things like that into acccount.

[Rockin Robbins]

The diesels were rated at a certain horsepower at a certain RPM limit. By ignoring the limit and bypassing the governors it was possible to run the engines faster than they were safely rated and so produce more than 100% rated power. For an unknown length of time at the expense of an unknown amount of serviceable or possibly non-serviceable damage.

That is the source of the extra power. The diesels did not connect to the drive shafts at all. They strictly supplied power to the batteries and/or electric motors, which were all that powered the sub.

Cutting down the fairwaters was for visibility on the surface. There was very little difference in displacement because the fairwater filled with water when the sub submerged. If anything, the irregular shape of the resulting conning tower would have added more drag to compensate for the missing weight of the steel for very little change in boat handling.

When you reduce cavitation you generally increase thrust. That may have had a little effect. But the fact that the stated advantage was to cut down on noise kind of implies that speed gains were minimal.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Armistead

I asked Duci once and he said two is the limit per compartment, that both will work. I often take two engine specialist, once activated you can get 3 extra knots if you use both. Most work in more than one compartment.

I'm not entirely sure what was said right now, but i vaguely remember how i designed crew skills in TMO. Where the engine spaces are concerned, yes there are limited number of slots that allow skills. Three if i remember corectly. The way i intended was to have the player make a choice. Remember there are other skills then the speed boost.

From the PDF file in TMO, your options are:

MASTER ENGINEER
Required compartment: ENGINES ROOM, CONTROL ROOM
Description: When it comes to repairs, this barnacle encrusted Chief has rung more salt water from his socks then most sailors have sailed over. He can effect repairs faster, pump water out sooner, and make operational unserviceable equipment.
Effect: Repair and pump speed increased 38%, can repair destroyed items.

ENGINES EXPERT
Required compartment: ENGINES ROOM
Description: This Chief knows his job well enough to take a few unorthodoxed shortcuts on diving procedures, decreasing the time it takes to dive the boat.
Effect: Increases dive speed by 65.
Special note: I have tuned this so that with 3 of them, your fastest dive will be 35 seconds, which was obtainable by experienced crews. This skill is subject to diminishing returns.

MASTER ELECTRICIAN
Required compartment: ENGINES ROOM
Description: This Chief knows how best to maintain the batteries and draw the most amps, reducing battery consumption as a result.
Effect: Reduces battery consumption by 25%.


If you look carefully, im sure you'll find those skills are within reason.

Even this one:

AHEAD EMERGENCY
Required compartment: CONTROL ROOM
Description: Your officer orders the denizens of the engineering spaces to ignore safety protocols and push all four main engines to the absolute maximum power. Increases your maximum surface speed by 1 and 1/2 knots.|Duration: 6 hour|Available: 1 day
Effect: Maximum speed increased by 35%, which comes out to be 1.5 kts.

Originally Posted by EricW

Suh-WEET- 1.5 knots isn't enuff to really bother, but a 3kt boost is a different story!!!

And herein is the problem. I can't stop people from doing unreasonable things. The crew system is open ended enough to you can stack up on all of one type of crewman skill at the expense of all others.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

And completely unrealistic.

I agree. In the end there is what you intended in design, and then there's what people will actually do with the options you give them.



As an aside, the skill Fuel Ballast, shouldn't be showing up. I thoguht i had removed that skill. At the least i disabled the bonus. The reason that was removed from play is i decided to make fuel ballast adjustments intrinsic to the submarine's internal specifications within the sub files themselves.

[Ducimus]

As an aside, im sure someones wondering, why didn't you just remove special abilities altogether?! Their all gamey and unrealistic!

In vanilla, they most certainly are.

I decided not to remove them because:

a.) They're adjustable.

b.) They are part of SH4's features that distinguish it from SH3. I'm not a fan of removing functionality or features.

c.) Without them, your boat's performance is nearly static, and your crew unimportant. Reworking these skills and abilities represented a way to deliver real dynamic changes in a career game that would otherwise be a static setup. This is something SH3 lacks.

[Bubblehead1980]

This "debate" has spurred me to start rereading "CLEAR THE BRIDGE!" by O Kane and already in it's first patrol he has talked about pushing the engines and risking damage to get the extra speed.After I finish up the patrol I will add some quotes from the book regarding this.

Duci, what files would I need to open to adjust the the max speed of the ahead emergency?