Crew Management Questions

Reinhard Dietz · 03-31-10, 08:24 PM

Hey folks!

U-48 is in port and I'm ready to go and get some more crew. However, I've got a few questions that may have been covered before. I'll ask anyways. :P

-Did LIs stay with a particular boat? SH3C is recommending that I send my LI/CE off to get his own command, but I don't recall off-hand hearing that engineers did that. My current one is a senior lieutenant who stays in the zentrale and he's really handy.

-What ratio NCO:enlisted for the deck gun? I'm thinking I could use an NCO with the gunnery qualification to increase speed on the gun, but if they weren't actually on the gun, it'll have to be an officer with a gunnery qual to ride shotgun on the bridge.

-Is it reasonable to have a "radio/sonar department" that might consist of an NCO and a couple of enlisted men, or were those duties entrusted to the enlisted alone?

-Right now, I've got two NCOs with torpedo qualifications, one for fore and aft. Is that historically the way it went, or what's the real deal?

-Historically, would there have been an NCO with watchman qualifications on the bridge of a surfaced U-boat at all times?

-Historically, who was responsible for the decoding of Enigma traffic?

-What's the proper mix of ranks and the like aboard a VIIB?

Finally, is there a mod that allows me to use the original German-language ranks without a lot of hassle? I'm saving the GWX install for after I complete this career, so keep that in mind.

frau kaleun · 03-31-10, 09:20 PM

Re question #1, my understanding of the Kriegsmarine of the 1930s-40s was that officers who chose or were chosen for the "engineering path" in their training were considered specialists in that realm and were not line officers, i.e., they were not in line to command a combat unit.

The Kriegsmarine had separate insignia on the uniforms of engineering officers which distinguished them from officers of the line who actually were part of the chain of command. (For the engineers, a cog wheel, I believe - for line officers, a star.)

Reinhard Dietz · 03-31-10, 10:03 PM

Thanks, frau. I had suspected it, but I wanted to make sure that I had some reasonable basis for keeping my guy.

By the way, don't you have some semi-custom conning tower emblem?

frau kaleun · 04-01-10, 09:16 AM

Well, if you wanted to promote him I guess you could pretend that he was being sent up to a flotilla-level engineering position, but yeah I'd rather keep a good LI who knows my boat than start out with another - you'd have to spend renown to get an experienced one.

I don't suppose it's possible to promote him AND keep him... if he's already an Obrlt... I don't know if the game will let you have a Kptlt as an LI. I don't know if it's possible through Commander either, I've never gotten far enough to start promoting my officers!

Re the custom emblems, you can do them using the Turm Your Way mods, there are different ones for the 7B and 7C plus a fix for a small issue with one of them, can't remember which. Do a search in Downloads with keyword 'Turm' and they'll show up in the list. Mine looks like this:

I had to do a bit of extra fiddling because the template has a silver/grey background and I'm using the Black Boat skin, it was just a matter of making sure the emblems would blend properly into the skin's coloring and not the default paint job, lol.

I need to start a thread about that silver "patch" that still shows up on the deck with this skin - I don't think it should be there but I've looked at the tga files that came with the skin and can't see anything obvious (to me) there that's causing it not to get the same paint job as the rest of the boat. The skin's readme says it's for both 7b & 7c but I wonder if there's a difference between the two that's making the 7b turn out that way.

UltimaGecko · 04-02-10, 01:27 PM

I guess this whole post is a treatise on crew composition, but the part on radio crews is separated here for clarity. I included some German ranks for reference purposes, although the game doesn't distinguish between specializations of each rank (there is no Funkgefreiter or Maschinengefreiter). For reference, the plural of German Maat is Maate (so 2 Funkmaate but 1 Funkmaat).

The radio crew operating the radio and hydrophone tended to consist of 4 men on VIIs:
2 petty officers - Funkmaate (either Oberfunkmaate or Funkmaate)
2 seamen - Funkgefreiter (either Funkobergefreiter (sometimes called Ober-Funkgefreiter) or Funkgefreiter)

Larger submarines tended to have an additional man. This is the department concerned with the enigma device as well - although the commander may be the one to ultimately decode the complete message.

When considering crew it's important to remember that the mechanical crew and 'sailing' crew generally followed separate paths. Composition may differ based on the commander's preference, crew experience and availability. The general crew of a VII consisted of:

3-6 officers (Offiziere)
-2-4 Naval
--1 Commander (the Kaleun - although he may not have been Kapitänleutnant)
--1-3 Watch Officer(s)/Helmsmen (Oberleutnant or Leutnant zur See)
--1 Navigator (usually a Stabsobersteuermann; often also acting as a WO)
-1-2 Engineering
--1 Chief Engineer (Oberleutnant or Leutnant Ingenieur)
--0-1 Chief Engineer in Training or Assistant Engineer (Leutnant Ingenieur)

You could argue that a Stabsobersteuermann (usually navigator), Stabsobermachinist, Stabsobermechaniker (like a chief mechanic), or a Stabsoberbootsmann (usually crew chief) were officers as their ranks are borderline between officer/petty officer ranks. If you want to be technical, drop the officer count to 3-5 and add one to the petty officers.

LIs tended to stay with the same boat or same captain. Since they were part of a distinct branch of the naval hierarchy (namely engineering instead of naval or 'sailing' ranks), LIs usually didn't become ship captains. When they were promoted/retired from patrol they usually got cushy design/propaganda/repair jobs (...maybe to go with their hearing loss?).

There tended to be an officer on watch at all times (although occasionally a petty officer and not an actual officer). Generally there were 3 rotating shifts of 4 or 5 people - sometimes with the commander adding some relief as well.

Since the player represents the Kaleun and the game provides you 5 officer positions, one should be assigned to your engines/motors. Then there are the 3 helmsmen (who we'll assume are acting as a rotating watch and a possibly a navigator). Finally, your 5th officer may be considered a high ranking petty officer for armaments (torpedos/FLAK/deck gun or some mixture of them) or a more dedicated watch officer (WO) or a dedicated navigator.

10-18 Petty Officers (Maate/Unteroffiziere)
-4-8 Naval
-6-9 Engineering

Petty officers may have functioned as watch officers, artillery crew members, torpedo mechanics, helmsmen, radiomen, administrators, and navigators. On a deck gun usually there'd be at least one officer assisting; the FLAK tended to be manned by a trained seaman, but was occasionally manned by an officer. Most of the non-engineering officers were assigned duties relating to munitions or weapons (torpedo mate, ammunition chief, etc.).

In engineering petty officers tended to be engineers of some sort (maybe that's obvious). Non-officer crew in the engines tended to be "stokers," aka people directly responsible for making sure the engines were running.

In general there tended to be distinct diesel and electric motor crews, but SH3 doesn't simulate that particularly.

20-30 Seamen
-10-15 Naval
-8-12 Engineering

Generally torpedo mechanics were seamen (Mechanikerobergefreiter) although there tended to be at least one petty officer (Mechanikermaat).

Plus there's usually a cook and (very) occasionally a doctor or medic. Medical doctors tended to be stationed on Milchkuhs to provide service for any boat (or you tried to get your sick/injured man onto a boat returning home).

03-31-10, 10:03 PM	#3
Reinhard Dietz Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lorient Posts: 121 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Thanks, frau. I had suspected it, but I wanted to make sure that I had some reasonable basis for keeping my guy. By the way, don't you have some semi-custom conning tower emblem? __________________ Reinhard Dietz U-126 2. Unterseebootsflottille, Lorient

03-31-10, 08:24 PM	#1
Reinhard Dietz Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lorient Posts: 121 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 0	Crew Management Questions Hey folks! U-48 is in port and I'm ready to go and get some more crew. However, I've got a few questions that may have been covered before. I'll ask anyways. :P -Did LIs stay with a particular boat? SH3C is recommending that I send my LI/CE off to get his own command, but I don't recall off-hand hearing that engineers did that. My current one is a senior lieutenant who stays in the zentrale and he's really handy. -What ratio NCO:enlisted for the deck gun? I'm thinking I could use an NCO with the gunnery qualification to increase speed on the gun, but if they weren't actually on the gun, it'll have to be an officer with a gunnery qual to ride shotgun on the bridge. -Is it reasonable to have a "radio/sonar department" that might consist of an NCO and a couple of enlisted men, or were those duties entrusted to the enlisted alone? -Right now, I've got two NCOs with torpedo qualifications, one for fore and aft. Is that historically the way it went, or what's the real deal? -Historically, would there have been an NCO with watchman qualifications on the bridge of a surfaced U-boat at all times? -Historically, who was responsible for the decoding of Enigma traffic? -What's the proper mix of ranks and the like aboard a VIIB? Finally, is there a mod that allows me to use the original German-language ranks without a lot of hassle? I'm saving the GWX install for after I complete this career, so keep that in mind. __________________ Reinhard Dietz U-126 2. Unterseebootsflottille, Lorient

03-31-10, 09:20 PM	#2
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Re question #1, my understanding of the Kriegsmarine of the 1930s-40s was that officers who chose or were chosen for the "engineering path" in their training were considered specialists in that realm and were not line officers, i.e., they were not in line to command a combat unit. The Kriegsmarine had separate insignia on the uniforms of engineering officers which distinguished them from officers of the line who actually were part of the chain of command. (For the engineers, a cog wheel, I believe - for line officers, a star.)

04-01-10, 09:16 AM	#4
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Well, if you wanted to promote him I guess you could pretend that he was being sent up to a flotilla-level engineering position, but yeah I'd rather keep a good LI who knows my boat than start out with another - you'd have to spend renown to get an experienced one. I don't suppose it's possible to promote him AND keep him... if he's already an Obrlt... I don't know if the game will let you have a Kptlt as an LI. I don't know if it's possible through Commander either, I've never gotten far enough to start promoting my officers! Re the custom emblems, you can do them using the Turm Your Way mods, there are different ones for the 7B and 7C plus a fix for a small issue with one of them, can't remember which. Do a search in Downloads with keyword 'Turm' and they'll show up in the list. Mine looks like this: I had to do a bit of extra fiddling because the template has a silver/grey background and I'm using the Black Boat skin, it was just a matter of making sure the emblems would blend properly into the skin's coloring and not the default paint job, lol. I need to start a thread about that silver "patch" that still shows up on the deck with this skin - I don't think it should be there but I've looked at the tga files that came with the skin and can't see anything obvious (to me) there that's causing it not to get the same paint job as the rest of the boat. The skin's readme says it's for both 7b & 7c but I wonder if there's a difference between the two that's making the 7b turn out that way.

04-02-10, 01:27 PM	#5
UltimaGecko Swabbie Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 11 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	I guess this whole post is a treatise on crew composition, but the part on radio crews is separated here for clarity. I included some German ranks for reference purposes, although the game doesn't distinguish between specializations of each rank (there is no Funkgefreiter or Maschinengefreiter). For reference, the plural of German Maat is Maate (so 2 Funkmaate but 1 Funkmaat). The radio crew operating the radio and hydrophone tended to consist of 4 men on VIIs: 2 petty officers - Funkmaate (either Oberfunkmaate or Funkmaate) 2 seamen - Funkgefreiter (either Funkobergefreiter (sometimes called Ober-Funkgefreiter) or Funkgefreiter) Larger submarines tended to have an additional man. This is the department concerned with the enigma device as well - although the commander may be the one to ultimately decode the complete message. When considering crew it's important to remember that the mechanical crew and 'sailing' crew generally followed separate paths. Composition may differ based on the commander's preference, crew experience and availability. The general crew of a VII consisted of: 3-6 officers (Offiziere) -2-4 Naval --1 Commander (the Kaleun - although he may not have been Kapitänleutnant) --1-3 Watch Officer(s)/Helmsmen (Oberleutnant or Leutnant zur See) --1 Navigator (usually a Stabsobersteuermann; often also acting as a WO) -1-2 Engineering --1 Chief Engineer (Oberleutnant or Leutnant Ingenieur) --0-1 Chief Engineer in Training or Assistant Engineer (Leutnant Ingenieur) You could argue that a Stabsobersteuermann (usually navigator), Stabsobermachinist, Stabsobermechaniker (like a chief mechanic), or a Stabsoberbootsmann (usually crew chief) were officers as their ranks are borderline between officer/petty officer ranks. If you want to be technical, drop the officer count to 3-5 and add one to the petty officers. LIs tended to stay with the same boat or same captain. Since they were part of a distinct branch of the naval hierarchy (namely engineering instead of naval or 'sailing' ranks), LIs usually didn't become ship captains. When they were promoted/retired from patrol they usually got cushy design/propaganda/repair jobs (...maybe to go with their hearing loss?). There tended to be an officer on watch at all times (although occasionally a petty officer and not an actual officer). Generally there were 3 rotating shifts of 4 or 5 people - sometimes with the commander adding some relief as well. Since the player represents the Kaleun and the game provides you 5 officer positions, one should be assigned to your engines/motors. Then there are the 3 helmsmen (who we'll assume are acting as a rotating watch and a possibly a navigator). Finally, your 5th officer may be considered a high ranking petty officer for armaments (torpedos/FLAK/deck gun or some mixture of them) or a more dedicated watch officer (WO) or a dedicated navigator. 10-18 Petty Officers (Maate/Unteroffiziere) -4-8 Naval -6-9 Engineering Petty officers may have functioned as watch officers, artillery crew members, torpedo mechanics, helmsmen, radiomen, administrators, and navigators. On a deck gun usually there'd be at least one officer assisting; the FLAK tended to be manned by a trained seaman, but was occasionally manned by an officer. Most of the non-engineering officers were assigned duties relating to munitions or weapons (torpedo mate, ammunition chief, etc.). In engineering petty officers tended to be engineers of some sort (maybe that's obvious). Non-officer crew in the engines tended to be "stokers," aka people directly responsible for making sure the engines were running. In general there tended to be distinct diesel and electric motor crews, but SH3 doesn't simulate that particularly. 20-30 Seamen -10-15 Naval -8-12 Engineering Generally torpedo mechanics were seamen (Mechanikerobergefreiter) although there tended to be at least one petty officer (Mechanikermaat). Plus there's usually a cook and (very) occasionally a doctor or medic. Medical doctors tended to be stationed on Milchkuhs to provide service for any boat (or you tried to get your sick/injured man onto a boat returning home).