US Politics Thread 2016-2020

Originally Posted by Skybird

picture

Thing is, it doesn't matter. Those who voted him, voted him exactly for this sort of stupid behavior.

Let a .gif tell us more:

 

[Bilge_Rat]

Merkel and the rest of the Euro-crats are just a bunch of spoiled children. They want everyone to do what they say, but are unable to live up to their commitments.

good article on European hypocrisy:

Indeed, the Europeans talk a big game about the importance of commitments, and of how the alleged fight to save the earth “has to be a collective effort,” but they’ve shown no remorse about their own persistent failure to honor their NATO spending pledges. Translated, they expect the United States to weaken its economy based on an unproven, but rather expensive theory about the effects of climate change, but when it comes to living up to a longstanding agreement among NATO members to share the costs of a mutual defense shield, they’ll let the U.S. foot the bill.

More interesting here is that in their desperation to keep the U.S. in the Paris fold, Merkel and others are implicitly saying that any agreement made among leading western European countries without the U.S. isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on. With good reason. Consider non-NATO treaties like Maastricht, in which EU nations agreed to limit their deficit spending so that their debt/GDP ratios would always stay below 60%. Woops. As of 2015, Germany (74.4%), France (89.6%), and Italy (122.3%) were all well above what the G-7 countries committed to when they signed the treaty that led to the euro. As for their commitment to requiring euro member states to individually handle their debts, it too went out the window given the fear among EU members about what debt default would do to certain large banks.

Back to NATO, the European leaders so eager to guilt Trump into a climate commitment not his own have once again shown no commensurate guilt about their own safety being a function of U.S. taxpayers and legislators regularly living up to commitments that they haven’t lived up to. This is particularly galling when we remember that NATO’s mutual defense shield arguably has very little to do with U.S. safety. Lest we forget, the U.S. already has the strongest military in the world, and it’s also quite far from the world’s trouble spots. In short, the U.S. has long stuck to an agreement that weakens it economically, and that has little to nothing to do with its ongoing existence. Would Americans feel any less secure absent this pricey post-WWII arrangement? At the same time, could NATO survive and would Europeans still feel secure sans American support that gives NATO global relevance?

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/arti...-7_102714.html

[Rockstar]

Meh, everything has a purpose aunty Merkels comments sound like she didnt get her way with Trump. Her comments are for the purpose of seeking to take advantage of the situation for her own political gain. She will save you and the E.U. now that America and Britain no longer pay all the bills, err... I mean are no longer completely reliable.

Btw Sky I like the cartoon on the other page. Typical of the European leaderships perception of themselves; an oblivious bunch of pretentious socialites.

[Bilge_Rat]

That is the problem with Europeans, they come cap in hand begging for help from the U.S. in public, while mocking the U.S. in private.

However, we on this side of the pond knows that is just a sign of their inferiority complex:

In representing everything Europeans hate about America, Trump simultaneously confirms everything they want to believe about themselves. After all, Europeans have always looked down on Americans in the manner of a learned uncle who cannot conceal his jealousy at the banker nephew with that hot babe on his arm. In other words, they suffer from what psychologists call an inferiority superiority complex.

On the one hand, Europeans are deeply convinced that the world would be a much better place if only ghastly countries such as Iran, Zimbabwe, and the United States could be a little more like Germany or Sweden. This snobbism expresses itself in the arena of world politics: For example, Europeans tend to think that the world would be much safer if every country spent as little on its military as Denmark—conveniently forgetting that it was U.S. military might that kept their own continent peaceful for the past 70 years. But it also expresses itself in the realm of culture and cuisine: When an unsuspecting American friend dared to eat popcorn at a garden party held by my mother in Italy one summer, for example, five different guests walked up to her in quick succession. “American way of life,” each of them sneered.

This deep belief in the continent’s superiority makes it all the more infuriating that even the most patriotic of Europeans has to admit to its inferiority on a number of counts. There is that pesky little matter of the two world wars, of course. But the envy and the embarrassment go deeper than that: America is richer and more powerful. It is the world’s center for fashion and for science, for pop culture and for technological progress. The past may belong to Europe. But the future, it seemed for most of the postwar era, would undoubtedly belong to America.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...shouldn_t.html

of course, the biggest difference is that while Europeans are obsessed with the U.S., most Americans barely give Europe another thought.

[Skybird]

America is Mars, Europe is Venus. Or so some think.

Genderists however claim them to be two alternative neuters alltogether.

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

That is the problem with Europeans.

Boy, the crapstorm that would ensue here if one of us europoors would dare to say "the problem with Americans".

I know you struggle with that, like interestingly many right-wing Americans on this board, but... "the left", "Europeans", "Liberals", ... these aren't collectives.
For the sake of more sensible debates, it would be helpful if a handful of regulars here would understand this, finally, and learn to differentiate.

[Rockstar]

NATO is a product of a different era, The first NATO Chief, said the organization's goal was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down". In that regard I think the mission was successful. Instead of throwing money into an organization that's always reinventing itself to remain relevent in today's world. Maybe its time for everyone to move on.

We're always gonna be 'in' just not as 'in' as we used to be.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Maybe its time for everyone to move on.

Are you suggesting that dissolving NATO would be a good idea?

[Rockstar]

I doubt NATO is going away anytime soon. But as Aunty Merkel's comments seem to suggest it does appear to be a good time for the E.U. to start thinking of alternatives.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

That is the problem with Europeans, they come cap in hand begging for help from the U.S. in public, while mocking the U.S. in private.

While there is some truth in that, I guess that is not currently the point. The point is not, as I've tried to explain, that some criticism of Trump is justified.

The point is how he delivers it, how his manners are and how he's respect for other leaders and their people and is ready to accept compromises (e.g. climate protocol). And how he made his 'smiling' show in contract in Saudi Arabia ('deal') and helped to ridiculous gear up its armed forces. I don't think I have to tell you how Saudia Arabia is contributing 'positively' to the world, especially in the area of terrorism.

Does Europe/Germany need to contribute more in security/defense spending? Yep, for sure.

On the other hand: Which nations supported the U.S. after 9/11, especially in Afghanistan and how many soldiers outside of European nations died and fought along your side?

You mentioned: "most Americans barely give Europe another thought". Yes, but is this good in a more and more connected world ?

In a nutshell, both sides don't seem to remember the world before the end of WWII. They have forgotten what a success story and win/win it was after that period. They think this is just normal. But look at history and you know it was anything but normal...

[Skybird]

NATO or an EU army. Okay. But not both. Either dismantle NATO and replac eit with a purely Eruopean army without the uS and Canada, or full funding of NATO committments, and pressing for/inviting (matter of perspective) the US' dominant role being cut back that way.

After all, it is Europe'S liberty and freedom and land and security and rights and economic wealth that sits close to the potential direct military threat. Not the US. A sovjet invasion of North America never really was on the agenda

In the cyberwar arena however things are different, but I doubt that the US can learn much from Europe in that regard.

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I doubt NATO is going away anytime soon. But as Aunty Merkel's comments seem to suggest it does appear to be a good time for the E.U. to start thinking of alternatives.

Not what I asked.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

That is the problem with Europeans, they come cap in hand begging for help from the U.S. in public, while mocking the U.S. in private.

However, we on this side of the pond knows that is just a sign of their inferiority complex:



http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...shouldn_t.html

of course, the biggest difference is that while Europeans are obsessed with the U.S., most Americans barely give Europe another thought.

I guess being the moderator around here makes it hard for me to respond in a fitting manner but suffice to say I'm a tad surprised at what you posted.

[eddie]

I don't agree with what Bilge_rat posted, I have a lot of good friends in the UK and mainland Europe, and hope we stay friends. No matter where we live, once we elect our officials in government, we have no control over what they say or do most of the time, unless its something really illegal. To say we don't think of Europe at all or care what is going on over there, is just a bunch of crap! Whomever wrote that article has a crow bar stuck up their arse is all. Wrote that while they were hungover, or before they had their morning coffee I bet!

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...shouldn_t.html

America is richer and more powerful.

That reminds me $19 plus Trillion and rising. Don't get me wrong we have debt and rising but when i come across some one making that comment i wonder why America can't get on top of it's debt.