Couple of dumb questions...

Bothersome · 04-01-14, 02:56 AM

I'm looking for answers for.

1. Did the USA have any sub operations in the Atlantic or Baltic? I don't seem to find much information on this. I'd especially like to see some videos or movies on such.

2. What is the best way to attack a 5 x 5 merchant convoy using manual targeting on a fleet boat? I tried the "shoot 60 degrees into the convoy" as the juicy parts pass on a closer ship. Just in case a miss the fish might find another ship in the way somewhere down the line. Only sank one tanker doing this. So this didn't work too well. Would 80 degrees be better? 90?

To give a better scenario to this let me use actual data. Convoy coming in going south to 180, 11 knots. 750 yard spacing fore and aft and beam. Basically a big 5 x 5 positional layout. I get on the east side facing 300 degrees (60 degrees to the convoy). I set up my target line 15 degrees starboard because I'm using 29 knot electrics. This makes it about 0 degree torpedo angle. The plan worked nice except that once that first ship takes a hit. The whole convoy slows way down and start evading. Firing 6 as 6 different ships pass my line, 3 miss and 3 hit (3 different ships). The intent was to cripple as many ships as possible to "clean-up" later. One ship, an old tanker 7100 tons goes down after about 20 minutes. Of course I didn't get to see it, cause was about 530 feet under water trying to evade some ash cans myself.

But, here I am asking for some other skipper's experienced advice on best chances of creating maximum kaos for the Japanese merchant fleet.

Love to hear your opinions and suggestions for this.

mobucks · 04-01-14, 06:01 AM

I do one ship at a time and then do an end around. For alerted enemies, if you can figure out their base course, you can find their speed and AOB along that base course and plug those figures into the TDC and turn on the position keeper. Right as they are about to present the broadest aspect during their wormturn, let your fish fly.

You can also use the O'kane 90 degree to track setup against a column to shoot as the far ship crosses your reticle, then shoot as the next closest ship crosses ect. This is best used with wakeless torpedoes as the first fish will cross the bow of the closer ships in the column.

Of course, there a a bunch of even better tutorials/tips in the skipper's bag of tricks and other sticky threads located at the top of the forum page.

Good luck!

eers75 · 04-01-14, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bothersome

I'm looking for answers for.

2. What is the best way to attack a 5 x 5 merchant convoy using manual targeting on a fleet boat? I tried the "shoot 60 degrees into the convoy" as the juicy parts pass on a closer ship. Just in case a miss the fish might find another ship in the way somewhere down the line. Only sank one tanker doing this. So this didn't work too well. Would 80 degrees be better? 90?

But, here I am asking for some other skipper's experienced advice on best chances of creating maximum kaos for the Japanese merchant fleet.

Love to hear your opinions and suggestions for this.

Depends on what sub im in but I almost exclusively use the Okane shooting method. I generally wait until I have 2 juicy targets lined up at 345-15. When those 2 targets are within those in the periscope depending on range I fire 2-3 at the first and 2-3 at the second depending on sub configuration. If its a carrier or battleship I will blow the whole load either 4-6 on just the one target.

Another good little tactic I use is lets say you have a target in a convoy you want that's a bit further away than your second target. I utilize the slow speed on the fish quite a bit to try my best to get the fish to impact 2 targets at relatively close to the same time. With practice you can get impacts on targets spaced quite a distance apart within just a second or 2 of each other.

Im a bit cautious and depending on my position If I feel good about my shots and think I will get good success with my first salvo's then I will sometimes call it good and slip away. I will sometimes do another end around after my first salvos but it just depends on if its "safe" to do so. I personally play "dead is dead" so I typically try to stay alive to fight another day when in doubt.

Im sure more experienced skippers will have more advice but this is how I play and what works for me, good luck.

Dread Knot · 04-01-14, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bothersome

I'm looking for answers for.

1. Did the USA have any sub operations in the Atlantic or Baltic? I don't seem to find much information on this. I'd especially like to see some videos or movies on such.

SubRon 50 was briefly stationed in Roseneath, Scotland in 1942. It consisted of six Gato class boats. The Barb, Blackfish, Herring, Shad, Gurnard, and Gunnel. They conducted 27 war patrols in Europe, especially near Bay of Biscay. However, the results were disappointing. Two encounters with U-boats, and a few tangles with blockade runners, but there is no record of any sinkings. The boats did participate in "Operation Torch" in North Africa. By mid 1943, all were transferred to the Pacific theater were it was thought they would be more profitably deployed.

There were no US sub operations in the Baltic that I know of.

Bothersome · 04-01-14, 01:29 PM

Thanks Dread Knot that's good to know.

Thanks guys for your info and input on the attack.

One question eers75,
Do you have a general procedure for attacking the two ships simultaneously that is using manual targeting? For instance, if you knew the speed and the distance apart, do you have certain setups that you fire at per-determined angles or do you have to re-calculate and set up the TDC for the other target? Taking the time to set up the TDC is what I'm trying to avoid because by the time the set up is done, the firing is late.

Here is my MAIN beef with SH4 fleet boat targeting... When you send a new bearing to the TDC, it changes the direction of the ship. In real life, when the captain give you a bearing to set the TDC to, you don't change the ships course setting too. But in the game, that setting is being changed, so I have to constantly go back and reset the AOB/ship course setting to fix it back to the ships heading.

When playing the German side, this is done automatically. So you can shoot multiple targets pretty easy. If I shoot a ship at 45 degrees AOB, when I move the bearing to 10, the AOB changes to 80, keeping the ship on the same course. US side, the ship course would change to 35 degrees port which then has to be reset. Very annoying.

This is why I was thinking there might be a better way. To have per-determined angles to best fire at for multiple targets that have known properties.

eers75 · 04-01-14, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bothersome

Thanks Dread Knot that's good to know.

Thanks guys for your info and input on the attack.

One question eers75,
Do you have a general procedure for attacking the two ships simultaneously that is using manual targeting? For instance, if you knew the speed and the distance apart, do you have certain setups that you fire at per-determined angles or do you have to re-calculate and set up the TDC for the other target? Taking the time to set up the TDC is what I'm trying to avoid because by the time the set up is done, the firing is late.

Actually to me this is the beautiful thing using the Okane shooting method. Its almost so easy that it feels like cheating almost. Ive actually been reading bits and pieces of his war patrols and I really see why he was one (the top I believe) of the most successful skippers in WW2.

So using the Okane method there are only a few things to keep in mind. Also there are a ton of better tutorials out there then what I can explain so im just going to give the highpoints here as im no expert.

1. Speed of convoy/ship (remember here that generally speaking convoys travel at the same speed just don't grab the speed of the escorts) so if you grab the speed of any merchant that will tell you the speed of all merchants and non-escort warships.

2. AOB = using Okane method is always a 90 degree angle from you so either 90 from your left or 90 from your right. Setting this up as the aob is as simple as taking your heading once you are in the correct position using Okane method of positioning yourself in a 90 degree intercept of either subtracting or adding 90 to your bow.

3. Range = Doesn't matter! Yes that's right you heard / read that correctly. Using Okane method you will set up a firing solution and when the ship crosses it, it doesn't matter if the ship is at 1000 or 6000 as the torpedo will intercept every point on the plot as the lead angle is built in to your range when you set it up.

So im not the best at teaching this as im still learning myself so I will let you know the steps I go through when attacking a convoy.

After spotting/detecting the convoy I plot the course of any merchant, then I grab the speed of any merchant. I draw out on the map a line of the course of the convoy that goes well ahead of the convoy. Then I speed ahead of the convoy far enough so I can position myself in position to be at a 90 degree intercept point. Once there im going to take my periscope up just enough so I can see the ticks on it. (doesn't even have to be above the waterline)

Then depending on if the convoy is coming from left-right or right-left I put the periscope at either 345 or 15 degrees. I put in the speed, aob, and maximum range which im using OTC 1.5 and its 6200.

Now im set up and its a waiting game of having my sound man tell me the bearing of either the closest merchant I want or what I typically do is use the sonar myself when ive got a very specific target in mind.

When the target crosses across 345 or 15 I fire, often I don't even raise the periscope if im in the middle of a convoy but I like to verify what im shooting so I do almost always raise it but just wanted you to know that using this method the periscope doesn't even have to be raised.

On multiple targets I accomplish this one of two ways which are both very quick and easy. The easiest is if the 2 targets I have are in line with each other I just fire when both go in front of either 345 or 15.

If they are separated a bit I will fire on the furthest target first when it crosses 345 or 15 with the slow speed torpedo and then I will quickly go to 5 degrees in front of my second and closer target and put the range in again for that bearing and use the fast speed on these torpedos for the second/closer target. I use 5 degrees ahead as by the time I position the periscope 5 degrees in front and click the range its usually crossing in front of my firing line. Remember here that when I do this that both targets will be fired on somewhere between 345 and 15 on the periscope. Example is the bow of my second target is at 005 so I will go to 010 and input the range of 6200 and when the part of the ship I want to hit crosses 010 I will fire on it.

Ive even used this method to fire on 3 targets at the same time with 2 fish each (when I get a sub that has 6 forward that is) and its that quick once you get the hang of this method. Using the Okane method to me the most important thing to me is getting the speed very accurate as your aob will always be 90 from left or right.

My longest kill using the Okane method is probably about 6000 out or so. Im sorry for the long post but wanted to explain myself clearly as I could. There are a ton of good tutorials in the stickies to get you better acquainted with this and other methods but I can tell you this method is so reliable that Im more surprised when I miss vs when I hit and before I used Okane method it was the exact opposite.

Hope this long post helps.

Bothersome · 04-01-14, 04:26 PM

Yes thanks, it helps quite a bit. Allowed me to re-think the attack method and offer a vote in my mind as to how best to take on the convoy.

There is one thing I don't really like about a column attack. Shooting the first target first is going to alert the second target that the convoy is under attack. So his speed and course is no longer constant. This will most likely cause a miss. This is what I was trying to find a way to avoid.

Shooting a line (where the second ship is further away on the other side of the first) the O'Kane method works well. For an electric 29 knot torpedo and a ship spacing of 750 yards would make the firing solution fire the torpedoes 46 seconds apart. This is very doable.

Anyone have any optimizations on shooting a column and make simultaneous hits? After all, a small convoy will have a column before a line and there are more small convoys than large ones and are more likely to meet one.

Thanks again for the insight.

TorpX · 04-01-14, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eers75

Actually to me this is the beautiful thing using the Okane shooting method. Its almost so easy that it feels like cheating almost. Ive actually been reading bits and pieces of his war patrols and I really see why he was one (the top I believe) of the most successful skippers in WW2.

This is a misconception about the 'Okane' method. O'Kane did not use the 'Okane' method. This method was developed by Rockin' Robbins, who named it in honor of Dick O'Kane. Same goes for the 'Cromwell' method.

eers75 · 04-01-14, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorpX

This is a misconception about the 'Okane' method. O'Kane did not use the 'Okane' method. This method was developed by Rockin' Robbins, who named it in honor of Dick O'Kane. Same goes for the 'Cromwell' method.

WOW, definitely a misconception. Im shocked to be honest. I ordered "Clear the Bridge" the other day but its not here yet so ive been stuck trying to find snippets of war patrol reports from the web until it gets here. Ive become fascinated with Okane since returning to subsim as I never really tried to learn anything in depth years ago when I was here.

So I will look this up but why is it called the "Okane" method? Was it just something that Rockin Robbins really just made up? Im asking because I really thought that this method was one of the reasons that Okane was so successful.

Im not too proud to admit this is what I thought and im glad you pointed this out because that would have been my story

Sniper297 · 04-02-14, 09:01 PM

29 knots works out to about 979 yards per minute, 16 yards per second. Round it off since precision doesn't matter that much, 1000 yards per minute. Got three targets, ranges 1500 yards, 2000 yards, 2500 yards, you fire at the farthest first then wait - how long? 500 yards is 30 seconds, so fire two at the farthest, wait 30, fire two at the midrange, wait 30 more, fire at the closest. Not gonna be exact since the targets are moving so the range is opening or closing, if they're closing (which they should be or you're in a bad attack position) shave 5 seconds off and shift targets every 25 seconds. Fire at 12:00:00, 12:00:25, and 12:00:50, then at 12:02:00 the first fish has traveled 2000 yards, second 1600 (ABOUT!) yards, third 1200 yards. They should all impact at about the same time. Within 10 seconds of each other is good timing, but within 20 works fine too, even 30 gives little time to react.

TorpX · 04-03-14, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eers75

WOW, definitely a misconception. Im shocked to be honest. I ordered "Clear the Bridge" the other day but its not here yet so ive been stuck trying to find snippets of war patrol reports from the web until it gets here. Ive become fascinated with Okane since returning to subsim as I never really tried to learn anything in depth years ago when I was here.

So I will look this up but why is it called the "Okane" method? Was it just something that Rockin Robbins really just made up? Im asking because I really thought that this method was one of the reasons that Okane was so successful.

Im not too proud to admit this is what I thought and im glad you pointed this out because that would have been my story

Don't feel bad. I'm sure many had thought the same thing.

RR developed his method and wanted a better name than XYZ method. I don't think he picked O'Kane for any particular reason.

O'Kane is my favorite, too. If you like Clear the Bridge, you should also get Wahoo.

O'Kane mainly used the TDC in the way it was meant to be used. That is, to it's full scope of functionality. By this, I mean he didn't rely on 'canned' approaches, where one must approach, or fire at certain angles. He had a little trick where he spread the torpedoes by putting the scope reticle on another part of the ship, so the crew would recompute with the new bearing. (As opposed to using a specific angle spread.) I don't know if he was the only one to do this or not.

Something else O'Kane did. He used model ships on a turn table to practice calling out Aob angles, and honing his skill in this regard.
[I believe he describes this in Wahoo.]

Pisces · 04-03-14, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bothersome

...
To give a better scenario to this let me use actual data. Convoy coming in going south to 180, 11 knots. 750 yard spacing fore and aft and beam. Basically a big 5 x 5 positional layout. I get on the east side facing 300 degrees (60 degrees to the convoy). I set up my target line 15 degrees starboard because I'm using 29 knot electrics. This makes it about 0 degree torpedo angle. The plan worked nice except that once that first ship takes a hit. The whole convoy slows way down and start evading. Firing 6 as 6 different ships pass my line, 3 miss and 3 hit (3 different ships). The intent was to cripple as many ships as possible to "clean-up" later. One ship, an old tanker 7100 tons goes down after about 20 minutes. Of course I didn't get to see it, cause was about 530 feet under water trying to evade some ash cans myself.

I am curious where the torpedo hits the first ship. And if it in fact was the first torpedo launched that hit.

As I can't help but think (calculate) that looking 15 degrees starboard at the time of firing is NOT going to get the torpedo in the right spot based on 11 knots target speed, 60 degrees AOB and 29 knots torpedo speed. If one does the numbers correctly then the periscope would need to be set at 19 degrees and a bit.

lead angle= arcsine ( 11 * sin(60) /29 ) = 19.2 degrees

Now, if you are close enough the target size might still be enough to get hit towards the aft section. But likely not where you intended it. Are you sure of your speeds? Or used an offset angle in the process?

Once the other vessels notice the first one being hit then they do manoeuvre and get out of the way. So you need to try to get the hits almost simultaneously. For this you would need to fire on the most distant first, and in the same row (next to one another). With the intended setup this would happen automatically, the most distant target should be in your cross-hairs first. Then wait for the closer ones in the same row to be on your crosshair. This won't happen with targets in the same column (behind each other). Equally not likely to work for targets that are positioned diagonally in the convoy, as it is a combination of the two. Keep those for your next attack run when attacking a different row.

[EDIT]And 60 degrees might be a bit too much of a stretch for this to work. The target in the closest column might not get on the periscope line before the first torpedo already hits the furthest one. It works much better when shooting perpendicular to the target course.

[EDIT 2] The more I think about it, simultaneous hits work ONLY when the torpedoes are moving perpendicular to the target course and to one row only. I'm sorry, but the geometry dictates it.

Bothersome · 04-03-14, 10:31 AM

Pisces,
You are correct that a 90 degree perpendicular angle (torpedo travel) attack is best. At the time I was trying to find an angle that if a torpedo attack was slightly miscalculated (speed of target being a little off) that the torpedo would have a better chance at hitting different ship.

Turned out 60 degrees was about the worse angle one could have for a 750 yard spaced convoy.

The numbers I quoted came from the calculations done on the TDC. Observing the torpedo angle and gyro angle. The target bearing had to be about 15 degrees starboard to get the torpedo to fire at 0. The speed was calculated using radar over a 15 minute period of travel. I used the calculation of Distance (yards) / Time (seconds) * 1.8.

The problem is, that as the convoy moves, some ships tend to slow down and speed up a little to adjust their position a bit in the convoy. This can cause a miss when using such slow torpedoes.

Also, a good angle to fire "into" the convoy while staying out of the direct path of a destroyer is also a must. If any one destroyer passes too close to you, they can detect you just sitting there and then the gig is up and you are suddenly the hunted.

As I said in above posts, the best torpedo angle is 90 degrees to the convoy, but that still only works for shooting ships in a line. I have yet to see any solution to shooting a column where the torpedoes hit simultaneously. I haven't come up with an adequate solution either.

Eventually, I could come up with a few per-determined angles to set the TDC to for each given speed (one for 9 knots, one for 11, etc) and convoy configuration. Basically, come up with one angle for the second ship in the column and fire when it crosses the target bearing. Then change the target bearing for where the first ship will cross at its timing mark. Shoot the next torpedoes when it crosses its per-determined angle. I was just hoping someone had already had a better solution for the whole shooting a large convoy thing. One that gave an easy targeting solution and have the best chances for a margin of error.

Snarf · 04-03-14, 12:11 PM

There were some S-boats and some older boats in the Atlantic patrolling against U-boats. There may have been a couple sinkings, but not much more.

To get the best results firing on multiple ships, always shoot at the farthest targets first, working to the nearest targets, that way you have as close to simultaneous impacts on all the targets as possible. Hitting ships in the next rows with any misses is quite wishful at best. Your best bet for accuracy is to get in really close, firing at less than 1000 yards, as this significantly increases your odds of hitting something. My preferred method is to sneak between the DD's under the layer, using hydrophones to track, then pop up inside the ring of DD's

Sniper297 · 04-03-14, 05:53 PM

"This won't happen with targets in the same column (behind each other)."

" I have yet to see any solution to shooting a column where the torpedoes hit simultaneously. I haven't come up with an adequate solution either."

Depends on how many there are, what kind and how many fish you have. Real world SOP was to fire 1 MOT, 1 aimed to deliberately miss just ahead, 1 aimed to deliberately miss just behind. Usually wastes two fish, sometimes only one, but guarantees at least one hit with a good chance of two.

I use between 10 and 15 degrees angle-off with Mark 14s at high speed, AOB and target speed set to zero - the "Kentucky windage" method kinda like leading a duck with a shotgun, but a little more precise.

Three ships in column, me 1000 yards off the track at a right angle, wait for the first target to arrive at 5 degrees before the zero gyro angle shot, shift to the third target and note the bearing, move the scope 8 degrees in front of him, hit the stadimeter send bearing to TDC, and fire. High gyro angle and about a 30 to 40 AOB impact, but at close range that's not too big a problem. Shift to second target and note the bearing, shift 10 degrees ahead of that, click send bearing to TDC and shoot - less gyro angle, closer range, more like a 60 to 70 AOB impact. Then shift back to the lead target, repeat same send bearing 12 degrees ahead of him, shoot. If the timing is right you have the first fish going 2000 yards, second 1500, third 1000. At 46 knots the fish goes 1000 yards in 38 seconds, 500 yards in 19 seconds, so count about 15 between each shot and they should all hit around the same time. Why 15 rather than 19, while you're doing all this all three targets are getting closer so the run will be shorter than the actual range - particularly for the furthest target, the range is changing faster than the bearing, as opposed to the closest target which the bearing is changing faster than the range.

In summary it's difficult but not impossible to get three hits on three targets in column within a few seconds of each other, you just have to accept higher gyro angles and less than perfect angle impacts for the further two targets. Obviously the bigger and slower the easier it is.

04-01-14, 02:56 AM	#1
Bothersome Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 194 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Couple of dumb questions... I'm looking for answers for. 1. Did the USA have any sub operations in the Atlantic or Baltic? I don't seem to find much information on this. I'd especially like to see some videos or movies on such. 2. What is the best way to attack a 5 x 5 merchant convoy using manual targeting on a fleet boat? I tried the "shoot 60 degrees into the convoy" as the juicy parts pass on a closer ship. Just in case a miss the fish might find another ship in the way somewhere down the line. Only sank one tanker doing this. So this didn't work too well. Would 80 degrees be better? 90? To give a better scenario to this let me use actual data. Convoy coming in going south to 180, 11 knots. 750 yard spacing fore and aft and beam. Basically a big 5 x 5 positional layout. I get on the east side facing 300 degrees (60 degrees to the convoy). I set up my target line 15 degrees starboard because I'm using 29 knot electrics. This makes it about 0 degree torpedo angle. The plan worked nice except that once that first ship takes a hit. The whole convoy slows way down and start evading. Firing 6 as 6 different ships pass my line, 3 miss and 3 hit (3 different ships). The intent was to cripple as many ships as possible to "clean-up" later. One ship, an old tanker 7100 tons goes down after about 20 minutes. Of course I didn't get to see it, cause was about 530 feet under water trying to evade some ash cans myself. But, here I am asking for some other skipper's experienced advice on best chances of creating maximum kaos for the Japanese merchant fleet. Love to hear your opinions and suggestions for this.

04-03-14, 12:11 PM	#14
Snarf Officer Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: USS Tuna out of Pearl Harbor Posts: 243 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 10	There were some S-boats and some older boats in the Atlantic patrolling against U-boats. There may have been a couple sinkings, but not much more. To get the best results firing on multiple ships, always shoot at the farthest targets first, working to the nearest targets, that way you have as close to simultaneous impacts on all the targets as possible. Hitting ships in the next rows with any misses is quite wishful at best. Your best bet for accuracy is to get in really close, firing at less than 1000 yards, as this significantly increases your odds of hitting something. My preferred method is to sneak between the DD's under the layer, using hydrophones to track, then pop up inside the ring of DD's __________________ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" -David Farragut (probably repeated by many WWII sub skippers)

04-01-14, 06:01 AM	#2
mobucks Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 713 Downloads: 209 Uploads: 0	I do one ship at a time and then do an end around. For alerted enemies, if you can figure out their base course, you can find their speed and AOB along that base course and plug those figures into the TDC and turn on the position keeper. Right as they are about to present the broadest aspect during their wormturn, let your fish fly. You can also use the O'kane 90 degree to track setup against a column to shoot as the far ship crosses your reticle, then shoot as the next closest ship crosses ect. This is best used with wakeless torpedoes as the first fish will cross the bow of the closer ships in the column. Of course, there a a bunch of even better tutorials/tips in the skipper's bag of tricks and other sticky threads located at the top of the forum page. Good luck!

04-01-14, 01:29 PM	#5
Bothersome Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 194 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Thanks Dread Knot that's good to know. Thanks guys for your info and input on the attack. One question eers75, Do you have a general procedure for attacking the two ships simultaneously that is using manual targeting? For instance, if you knew the speed and the distance apart, do you have certain setups that you fire at per-determined angles or do you have to re-calculate and set up the TDC for the other target? Taking the time to set up the TDC is what I'm trying to avoid because by the time the set up is done, the firing is late. Here is my MAIN beef with SH4 fleet boat targeting... When you send a new bearing to the TDC, it changes the direction of the ship. In real life, when the captain give you a bearing to set the TDC to, you don't change the ships course setting too. But in the game, that setting is being changed, so I have to constantly go back and reset the AOB/ship course setting to fix it back to the ships heading. When playing the German side, this is done automatically. So you can shoot multiple targets pretty easy. If I shoot a ship at 45 degrees AOB, when I move the bearing to 10, the AOB changes to 80, keeping the ship on the same course. US side, the ship course would change to 35 degrees port which then has to be reset. Very annoying. This is why I was thinking there might be a better way. To have per-determined angles to best fire at for multiple targets that have known properties.

04-01-14, 04:26 PM	#7
Bothersome Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 194 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Yes thanks, it helps quite a bit. Allowed me to re-think the attack method and offer a vote in my mind as to how best to take on the convoy. There is one thing I don't really like about a column attack. Shooting the first target first is going to alert the second target that the convoy is under attack. So his speed and course is no longer constant. This will most likely cause a miss. This is what I was trying to find a way to avoid. Shooting a line (where the second ship is further away on the other side of the first) the O'Kane method works well. For an electric 29 knot torpedo and a ship spacing of 750 yards would make the firing solution fire the torpedoes 46 seconds apart. This is very doable. Anyone have any optimizations on shooting a column and make simultaneous hits? After all, a small convoy will have a column before a line and there are more small convoys than large ones and are more likely to meet one. Thanks again for the insight.

04-02-14, 09:01 PM	#10
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	29 knots works out to about 979 yards per minute, 16 yards per second. Round it off since precision doesn't matter that much, 1000 yards per minute. Got three targets, ranges 1500 yards, 2000 yards, 2500 yards, you fire at the farthest first then wait - how long? 500 yards is 30 seconds, so fire two at the farthest, wait 30, fire two at the midrange, wait 30 more, fire at the closest. Not gonna be exact since the targets are moving so the range is opening or closing, if they're closing (which they should be or you're in a bad attack position) shave 5 seconds off and shift targets every 25 seconds. Fire at 12:00:00, 12:00:25, and 12:00:50, then at 12:02:00 the first fish has traveled 2000 yards, second 1600 (ABOUT!) yards, third 1200 yards. They should all impact at about the same time. Within 10 seconds of each other is good timing, but within 20 works fine too, even 30 gives little time to react.

04-03-14, 10:31 AM	#13
Bothersome Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 194 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Pisces, You are correct that a 90 degree perpendicular angle (torpedo travel) attack is best. At the time I was trying to find an angle that if a torpedo attack was slightly miscalculated (speed of target being a little off) that the torpedo would have a better chance at hitting different ship. Turned out 60 degrees was about the worse angle one could have for a 750 yard spaced convoy. The numbers I quoted came from the calculations done on the TDC. Observing the torpedo angle and gyro angle. The target bearing had to be about 15 degrees starboard to get the torpedo to fire at 0. The speed was calculated using radar over a 15 minute period of travel. I used the calculation of Distance (yards) / Time (seconds) * 1.8. The problem is, that as the convoy moves, some ships tend to slow down and speed up a little to adjust their position a bit in the convoy. This can cause a miss when using such slow torpedoes. Also, a good angle to fire "into" the convoy while staying out of the direct path of a destroyer is also a must. If any one destroyer passes too close to you, they can detect you just sitting there and then the gig is up and you are suddenly the hunted. As I said in above posts, the best torpedo angle is 90 degrees to the convoy, but that still only works for shooting ships in a line. I have yet to see any solution to shooting a column where the torpedoes hit simultaneously. I haven't come up with an adequate solution either. Eventually, I could come up with a few per-determined angles to set the TDC to for each given speed (one for 9 knots, one for 11, etc) and convoy configuration. Basically, come up with one angle for the second ship in the column and fire when it crosses the target bearing. Then change the target bearing for where the first ship will cross at its timing mark. Shoot the next torpedoes when it crosses its per-determined angle. I was just hoping someone had already had a better solution for the whole shooting a large convoy thing. One that gave an easy targeting solution and have the best chances for a margin of error.

04-03-14, 05:53 PM	#15
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	"This won't happen with targets in the same column (behind each other)." " I have yet to see any solution to shooting a column where the torpedoes hit simultaneously. I haven't come up with an adequate solution either." Depends on how many there are, what kind and how many fish you have. Real world SOP was to fire 1 MOT, 1 aimed to deliberately miss just ahead, 1 aimed to deliberately miss just behind. Usually wastes two fish, sometimes only one, but guarantees at least one hit with a good chance of two. I use between 10 and 15 degrees angle-off with Mark 14s at high speed, AOB and target speed set to zero - the "Kentucky windage" method kinda like leading a duck with a shotgun, but a little more precise. Three ships in column, me 1000 yards off the track at a right angle, wait for the first target to arrive at 5 degrees before the zero gyro angle shot, shift to the third target and note the bearing, move the scope 8 degrees in front of him, hit the stadimeter send bearing to TDC, and fire. High gyro angle and about a 30 to 40 AOB impact, but at close range that's not too big a problem. Shift to second target and note the bearing, shift 10 degrees ahead of that, click send bearing to TDC and shoot - less gyro angle, closer range, more like a 60 to 70 AOB impact. Then shift back to the lead target, repeat same send bearing 12 degrees ahead of him, shoot. If the timing is right you have the first fish going 2000 yards, second 1500, third 1000. At 46 knots the fish goes 1000 yards in 38 seconds, 500 yards in 19 seconds, so count about 15 between each shot and they should all hit around the same time. Why 15 rather than 19, while you're doing all this all three targets are getting closer so the run will be shorter than the actual range - particularly for the furthest target, the range is changing faster than the bearing, as opposed to the closest target which the bearing is changing faster than the range. In summary it's difficult but not impossible to get three hits on three targets in column within a few seconds of each other, you just have to accept higher gyro angles and less than perfect angle impacts for the further two targets. Obviously the bigger and slower the easier it is.