Couple of dumb questions... - Page 2

Bothersome · 04-03-14, 07:50 PM

Thanks Sniper297, that's what I was looking for. It looks awefull in text format but if it works that seems to be a working solution.

I had thought that the leading angles would be a bit skewed from that of the actual TDC. How did you come to those solutions? Was it just trial and error or did you mathematically come up with the firing angles?

I need somewhat the same but for 29 knot electric torpedoes. And for different speed convoys.

Here is the thinking that I've been doing... Since an electric can only go 4000 yards, I need every attack attempt to be within the 4000 yard range. So if I were to have a 2 x 2 convoy, 750 yard spacing, at 11 knots, I'd want to be about 1500 yards from the closest merchant's track. Depending on where the escorts are going to be, this may or may not be possible. I would try to hit the far merchant in the front line first, then the closest one in the second line, then finally the closest in the first line. Shooting 2 torpedoes each.

So, I'd preselect my target bearing to 20.5 degrees and wait for the first shot to cross that line. Preferably one ahead of the bridge and one aft. As soon as the torpedoes are away, set TDC to new bearing for second shot. When this happens the AOB stays the same but the path is incorrect. But need an adjustment to compensate. This I still need to figure out. Once the torpedoes are fired on the second ship, then go back to the first bearing and reset the TDC back to 20.5 degrees for firing on the last and closest ship. Only problem is, time from first firing to third firing is only 46 seconds. And I'd need that adjusted angle to make the timing correct for the shooting the second ship.

Sniper297 · 04-03-14, 08:40 PM

Main problem most people have (myself included) is when we ride with training wheels we put our minds in neutral and enjoy the ride while the training wheels do all the work.

The trick is to use the training wheels and make observations, take notes. Autotargeting says it's at 1400 yards going 6 knots with an AOB of 80, the gyro angle needle is at zero, the scope crosshairs locked on the center of the target say the bearing is 348 (or if he's coming from your right instead of left 012). Using different torpedoes or slow speed on the Mark 14, make a note of what the instruments are telling you at the moment the target reaches the zero gyro angle point. Also make mental notes using the periscope crosshairs to estimate range - how many divisions does the average size merchant ship fill in high power at 5000 yards? 2500? 500? If you have a mental picture of how big the target is supposed to look at near and far ranges for the different magnification settings, you'll have a subconscious warning if your calculations are way off when you change to manual targeting.

Use the unrealistic gameplay to study like you were studying to be an actual sub skipper, it will make the realistic game easier to master.

TorpX · 04-04-14, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sniper297

Main problem most people have (myself included) is when we ride with training wheels we put our minds in neutral and enjoy the ride while the training wheels do all the work.

The trick is to use the training wheels and make observations, take notes.
Use the unrealistic gameplay to study like you were studying to be an actual sub skipper, it will make the realistic game easier to master.

That's not a bad idea, actually.

Aktungbby · 04-04-14, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Main problem most people have (myself included) is when we ride with training wheels we put our minds in neutral and enjoy the ride while the training wheels do all the work....Use the unrealistic gameplay to study like you were studying to be an actual sub skipper, it will make the realistic game easier to master.

Now that is profound, well considered

wisdom!

IMHO! Before you can solve a problem, you must identify the problem...correctly! This has actually been done with the old Destroyer Command game, in a classroom setting, to simulate the issues that caused the Andrea Doria's collision; I recollect the post but cannot locate it.

Friscobay · 04-04-14, 11:14 PM

This is great information mates. I knew not of the famous [ at least as far as GOOGLE hits go ] ''O'Kane'' tactic. But what of crummy seas at 2-3' swells? Do these have an impact especially in SH stock versions? Here, especially in SH4, we see torps clear the water [ or going ''porpoise'', a complaint of WWII sub skippers ] and alternately submerging while ''loss lock'' occurs with the scope thus ,even at the 90 degree abeam inside 2000 at a T against a convoy, I must snap shot in order to make a hit in rough waters. Normal weathers bring the usual calculations and the sending of Nippons iron to Davy Jones. Thus if this weather/torp deal is an AI feature, it is most challenging.

bandit484 · 04-06-14, 12:05 AM

Yes the U.S SUBS did operate out of the Atlantic. I'm not sure about the Baltic though, I think that area was more of the Soviet Subs area of responsibility.

Admiral8Q · 04-06-14, 04:36 AM

The torpedo angle is automatically calculated in the TDC unless you have that switched to manual. Either way, it may not always be the best. I find if it's a slow target I can calculate in a bit of time. Though one of my last patrols, I found nothing for well over 2 weeks. Any contact reports I got, were going the wrong direction, or too fast to intercept. I did manage to intercept a destroyer, though he was moving perpendicular and zig-zagging, too far away. I was on the surface at night. Fired my deck gun twice to get his attention, to no avail. So went to AA guns and fired at him. The tracers must have got his attention. Dove below thermal layer until he was at about 2000 yards, came up to periscope depth. He was zigging towards me, no good for a TDC shot. So I opened four forward tubes, and fired a spread visually when he was closing under 900 yards. Experience I guess because I score a hit and sank him.

P.S. Only a boring patrol would make me go after a lone DD like that, heh heh!

He was like 1600 tons or so.

Admiral8Q · 04-06-14, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bandit484

Yes the U.S SUBS did operate out of the Atlantic. I'm not sure about the Baltic though, I think that area was more of the Soviet Subs area of responsibility.

As was previously mentioned, there was little effect, or little reason for US subs to operate in the Atlantic. A sub is a small sneaky attack vessel, the Atlantic belonged to the Allies and the U-boats were the threat. Also sub vs sub was nearly pointless in those days. The US subs were mainly deployed in the Pacific to do to the Japanese what the Germans were doing to the Allies.

Sniper297 · 04-06-14, 11:36 AM

Training wheels 101 will come later, I guess I'll have to do a whole tutorial on that. For now one suggestion - take the wheel off one side and lean toward it. Auto targeting OFF, map contacts update ON, use the map to check your accuracy.

ID the target, if you can't just use 100 feet since that's an average for large merchants, you can change it as you get closer.

I chopped the range/AOB dial and moved it over so it would fit in the image, worst trouble with SH4 stock is the range on the dial says 11000 yards and hitting the SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC button says it's 9843. As the target gets closer and the masts become more than one pixel wide it becomes easier to see where the actual tops are, but for that distance;

Measures at 9300, my clutzy stadimeter work (squinting at the screen through greasy bifocals) said 9843, 500 yards off at that range is actually pretty good. If the target is moving there will be differences anyway, but the errors should get smaller as he gets closer. Play with manual targeting using map contact updates on for a few months, use the map range checks to twique your techneak.

04-06-14, 04:36 AM	#22
Admiral8Q Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada Posts: 1,080 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	The torpedo angle is automatically calculated in the TDC unless you have that switched to manual. Either way, it may not always be the best. I find if it's a slow target I can calculate in a bit of time. Though one of my last patrols, I found nothing for well over 2 weeks. Any contact reports I got, were going the wrong direction, or too fast to intercept. I did manage to intercept a destroyer, though he was moving perpendicular and zig-zagging, too far away. I was on the surface at night. Fired my deck gun twice to get his attention, to no avail. So went to AA guns and fired at him. The tracers must have got his attention. Dove below thermal layer until he was at about 2000 yards, came up to periscope depth. He was zigging towards me, no good for a TDC shot. So I opened four forward tubes, and fired a spread visually when he was closing under 900 yards. Experience I guess because I score a hit and sank him. P.S. Only a boring patrol would make me go after a lone DD like that, heh heh! He was like 1600 tons or so. __________________

04-03-14, 07:50 PM	#16
Bothersome Planesman Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 194 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 0	Thanks Sniper297, that's what I was looking for. It looks awefull in text format but if it works that seems to be a working solution. I had thought that the leading angles would be a bit skewed from that of the actual TDC. How did you come to those solutions? Was it just trial and error or did you mathematically come up with the firing angles? I need somewhat the same but for 29 knot electric torpedoes. And for different speed convoys. Here is the thinking that I've been doing... Since an electric can only go 4000 yards, I need every attack attempt to be within the 4000 yard range. So if I were to have a 2 x 2 convoy, 750 yard spacing, at 11 knots, I'd want to be about 1500 yards from the closest merchant's track. Depending on where the escorts are going to be, this may or may not be possible. I would try to hit the far merchant in the front line first, then the closest one in the second line, then finally the closest in the first line. Shooting 2 torpedoes each. So, I'd preselect my target bearing to 20.5 degrees and wait for the first shot to cross that line. Preferably one ahead of the bridge and one aft. As soon as the torpedoes are away, set TDC to new bearing for second shot. When this happens the AOB stays the same but the path is incorrect. But need an adjustment to compensate. This I still need to figure out. Once the torpedoes are fired on the second ship, then go back to the first bearing and reset the TDC back to 20.5 degrees for firing on the last and closest ship. Only problem is, time from first firing to third firing is only 46 seconds. And I'd need that adjusted angle to make the timing correct for the shooting the second ship.

04-03-14, 08:40 PM	#17
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Main problem most people have (myself included) is when we ride with training wheels we put our minds in neutral and enjoy the ride while the training wheels do all the work. The trick is to use the training wheels and make observations, take notes. Autotargeting says it's at 1400 yards going 6 knots with an AOB of 80, the gyro angle needle is at zero, the scope crosshairs locked on the center of the target say the bearing is 348 (or if he's coming from your right instead of left 012). Using different torpedoes or slow speed on the Mark 14, make a note of what the instruments are telling you at the moment the target reaches the zero gyro angle point. Also make mental notes using the periscope crosshairs to estimate range - how many divisions does the average size merchant ship fill in high power at 5000 yards? 2500? 500? If you have a mental picture of how big the target is supposed to look at near and far ranges for the different magnification settings, you'll have a subconscious warning if your calculations are way off when you change to manual targeting. Use the unrealistic gameplay to study like you were studying to be an actual sub skipper, it will make the realistic game easier to master.

04-04-14, 11:14 PM	#20
Friscobay Mate Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 54 Downloads: 47 Uploads: 0	This is great information mates. I knew not of the famous [ at least as far as GOOGLE hits go ] ''O'Kane'' tactic. But what of crummy seas at 2-3' swells? Do these have an impact especially in SH stock versions? Here, especially in SH4, we see torps clear the water [ or going ''porpoise'', a complaint of WWII sub skippers ] and alternately submerging while ''loss lock'' occurs with the scope thus ,even at the 90 degree abeam inside 2000 at a T against a convoy, I must snap shot in order to make a hit in rough waters. Normal weathers bring the usual calculations and the sending of Nippons iron to Davy Jones. Thus if this weather/torp deal is an AI feature, it is most challenging.

04-06-14, 12:05 AM	#21
bandit484 Medic Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 165 Downloads: 523 Uploads: 0	Yes the U.S SUBS did operate out of the Atlantic. I'm not sure about the Baltic though, I think that area was more of the Soviet Subs area of responsibility.

04-06-14, 11:36 AM	#24
Sniper297 The Old Man Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Philadelphia Shipyard Brig Posts: 1,386 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 19	Training wheels 101 will come later, I guess I'll have to do a whole tutorial on that. For now one suggestion - take the wheel off one side and lean toward it. Auto targeting OFF, map contacts update ON, use the map to check your accuracy. ID the target, if you can't just use 100 feet since that's an average for large merchants, you can change it as you get closer. I chopped the range/AOB dial and moved it over so it would fit in the image, worst trouble with SH4 stock is the range on the dial says 11000 yards and hitting the SEND RANGE AND BEARING TO TDC button says it's 9843. As the target gets closer and the masts become more than one pixel wide it becomes easier to see where the actual tops are, but for that distance; Measures at 9300, my clutzy stadimeter work (squinting at the screen through greasy bifocals) said 9843, 500 yards off at that range is actually pretty good. If the target is moving there will be differences anyway, but the errors should get smaller as he gets closer. Play with manual targeting using map contact updates on for a few months, use the map range checks to twique your techneak.