US Politics Thread 2016-2020 - Page 435

eddie · 02-02-19, 04:40 PM

Well, here we go. Trump pulls us out of the Nuclear treaty and now Russia is pulling out. Yay!! A new arms race!!

Rockstar · 02-02-19, 05:05 PM

It wouldn't have anything to do with China not being a signatory of the treaty nor obliged to participate would it?

Let me guess the reply:. Ya but Trump.

Mr Quatro · 02-02-19, 05:15 PM

I read somewhere that Russia has reserved the right to reload their missile silos , but the USA does not have that ability and on top of that the extra missiles were not counted against Russia.

They say Trump doesn't listen to his military advisors he sure got this inch to increase the military might of America from somewhere.

Does anyone understand what happens next? Do our FBM's in service no longer have to be converted to cruise missiles?

mapuc · 02-02-19, 05:56 PM

A question on Trumps relation to the countries military abilities and the countries abilities when it comes to gather information about other countries military abilities.

Some days ago I could read Trump had "made nonsens" of a report on Iran's military strength.

Does Trump have such a huge knowledge on what Iran can or can't, that he can do so ?

Markus

eddie · 02-02-19, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockstar

It wouldn't have anything to do with China not being a signatory of the treaty nor obliged to participate would it?

Let me guess the reply:. Ya but Trump.

I give up, is that the reply? Or do you think that this is a good thing?

Onkel Neal · 02-02-19, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

It almo$t make$ $en$e that $omeone who think$ a cup of covfefe $hould be $4.00 would want to run "our" government.

Hmm.. actually, someone who can sell the coffee for $4, pretty capable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

Qualified politicians

You should not be so worried whether a politician is qualified to take place in the Oval Office or not.

What you should be worried about is the voters.

Markus

Wow, that's the truth, man.

ikalugin · 02-03-19, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

I read somewhere that Russia has reserved the right to reload their missile silos , but the USA does not have that ability and on top of that the extra missiles were not counted against Russia.

They say Trump doesn't listen to his military advisors he sure got this inch to increase the military might of America from somewhere.

Does anyone understand what happens next? Do our FBM's in service no longer have to be converted to cruise missiles?

The (quick) silo reload is a cold war era myth and is contradicted by evidence, for example proportion of produced ICBMs to launchers.

That said however the new START treaty does have it's own problems, from development of new systems that do not fall under it (ie HGVs) to compliance. You can read the list of some of the compliance issues in the attached PDF.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hbC...ew?usp=sharing

ikalugin · 02-03-19, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie

Well, here we go. Trump pulls us out of the Nuclear treaty and now Russia is pulling out. Yay!! A new arms race!!

In his meeting with Shoigu (MoD) and Lavrov (MfFA) Putin supported Shoigu's suggestion to develop intermediate range land based weapons and ordered both of his ministers to not initiate any further work on arms control.

Catfish · 02-03-19, 05:48 AM

^ "In his meeting with Shoigu (MoD) and Lavrov (MfFA) Putin supported Shoigu's suggestion to develop intermediate range land based weapons and ordered both of his ministers to not initiate any further work on arms control. "

Oh i think Putin will need money for this.. and he has just recently raised the retirement age, a sign that the sanctions against Russia show some result.
"Putin supported.. " are you sure it is this way round ?

Like his (in)famous discussions with Russia's other .. president live on TV.

Fact is that Russia has already undermined this treaty for some time, so cancelling it only means that something obvious is now official, and the weapons industries will have a good time ahead.

ikalugin · 02-03-19, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ "In his meeting with Shoigu (MoD) and Lavrov (MfFA) Putin supported Shoigu's suggestion to develop intermediate range land based weapons and ordered both of his ministers to not initiate any further work on arms control. "

Oh i think Putin will need money for this.. and he has just recently raised the retirement age, a sign that the sanctions against Russia show some result.
"Putin supported.. " are you sure it is this way round ?

Like his (in)famous discussions with Russia's other .. president live on TV.

Fact is that Russia has already undermined this treaty for some time, so cancelling it only means that something obvious is now official, and the weapons industries will have a good time ahead.

The rearmament of Tochkas to Iskanders is nearly over, so the funding stream would be moved towards making new INF non compliant weapons by the same people.
Pension reform has been over a decade in the making, is driven by demographics and if anything is late. Unless US sanctions have some hidden retrospect affect on the Russian demographics I do not see how they are related to the reform.

Yes, it could be theatrics to illustrate the decisions mades.

There is no public evidence of the Russian INF non compliance that I am aware of. There are only US allegations. Note that there are also reasonable Russian allegations of the US INF and new START treaty non compliance, I have linked the document discussing the later above.

Catfish · 02-03-19, 07:00 AM

And i thought Putin was running out of money to support his accomplices and the old, and funding arms build-up

I have to admit your campaigns to sow doubts and support destabilization everywhere from Trump to brexit have been successful, but they have not gone unnoticed.

ikalugin · 02-03-19, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

And i thought Putin was running out of money to support his accomplices and the old, and funding arms build-up

I have to admit your campaigns to sow doubts and support destabilization everywhere from Trump to brexit have been successful, but they have not gone unnoticed.

Ironically what you describe is more of a western campaighn to generate the cult of personality for Putin (the narrative that he is everywhere etc) vs what we are actually doing as a concerted state level effort.

Platapus · 02-03-19, 08:25 AM

I am not in favor of dumping treaties and still am not sure that the President has the authority to unilaterally withdraw from a ratified treaty.

But, that being written, The INF treaty going away is not cause to start building fallout shelters or stocking up on suicide pills.

The INF treaty served a good and well defined purpose, 20-30 years ago. Technology has advanced to the point where both countries were well capable of killing massive amounts of people in the "intermediate" range without using the banned weapon systems.

It is not much of a concern for the US as we are outside of the "Intermediate" range from the people who don't like us. Russia does not have that advantage.

Banning specific types of weapon systems only by two parties made sense when only those two parties were stockpiling and deploying them. These days there are more than the original dance team on the floor. The INF treaty does not apply to them.

Imagine a local situation where you have two neighbors in a rural area who don't like each other.

Neighbor 1 and neighbor 2 agree that while they don't like each other, neither of them will stockpile machine guns.

Then you have a new neighbor who also hates both of you, but does not agree not to stockpile machine guns.

How would you feel about that? Well it might depend on whether you are in machine gun range of this new neighbor.

If we are going to attempt to ban a specific type of weapon, it should be banned by more than just two countries.

As drone and Cruise Missile technology continues to advance, the distinct ranges of missiles becomes more variable unlike the older ballistic missile technology.

Back in the ol days, rockets and missiles had design range bands. It made it easier to characterize and easier to document in a treaty. These days, fixed range bands overlap.

The days of characterizing rockets and missiles based on range bands may be obsolete.

In any case, the withdrawal from the INF treaty, regardless of the wisdom or legality of that withdrawal does not mean that the world is suddenly more likely to turn in to Fallout4.

We still have plenty of non Intermediate range weapon systems to make every in to a Supermutant.

If the INF treaty were to survive, it would have to be redefined to recognize the changes in weapon technology and the number of players. That was probably not going to happen.

I may not like the way the INF treaty is going away, but I am not especially fearful that it is going away.

Rest assured, that all sides still have the capability of killing people, regardless of the range, and after all, that's what's important.

ikalugin · 02-03-19, 09:09 AM

The issue with the way INF died is not the military balance in Europe (though deploying Pershing-III like weapons to Poland and Baltics would see to that) but the way it affects other arms control treaties. For example I do not see new-START staying alive after this.

Dowly · 02-03-19, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

How dare an outsider actually try to fix things that we peons have been told can't be fixed. Prime example: "Those jobs aren't coming back, no siree."

Obama said "Some of those jobs of the past are just not going to come back."

02-02-19, 04:40 PM	#6511
eddie Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,023 Downloads: 99 Uploads: 0	Well, here we go. Trump pulls us out of the Nuclear treaty and now Russia is pulling out. Yay!! A new arms race!! __________________ Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. I'm kind to everyone, but when someone is unkind to me, weak is not what you are going to remember about me. Al Capone

02-02-19, 05:05 PM	#6512
Rockstar Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Zendia Bar & Grill Posts: 11,856 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It wouldn't have anything to do with China not being a signatory of the treaty nor obliged to participate would it? Let me guess the reply:. Ya but Trump. __________________ Guardian of the honey and nuts Let's assume I'm right, it'll save time.

02-02-19, 05:15 PM	#6513
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I read somewhere that Russia has reserved the right to reload their missile silos , but the USA does not have that ability and on top of that the extra missiles were not counted against Russia. They say Trump doesn't listen to his military advisors he sure got this inch to increase the military might of America from somewhere. Does anyone understand what happens next? Do our FBM's in service no longer have to be converted to cruise missiles? __________________ pla•teau noun a relatively stable level, period, or condition a level of attainment or achievement Lord help me get to the next plateau ..

02-03-19, 05:48 AM	#6519
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	^ "In his meeting with Shoigu (MoD) and Lavrov (MfFA) Putin supported Shoigu's suggestion to develop intermediate range land based weapons and ordered both of his ministers to not initiate any further work on arms control. " Oh i think Putin will need money for this.. and he has just recently raised the retirement age, a sign that the sanctions against Russia show some result. "Putin supported.. " are you sure it is this way round ? Like his (in)famous discussions with Russia's other .. president live on TV. Fact is that Russia has already undermined this treaty for some time, so cancelling it only means that something obvious is now official, and the weapons industries will have a good time ahead. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

02-03-19, 07:00 AM	#6521
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,897 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	And i thought Putin was running out of money to support his accomplices and the old, and funding arms build-up I have to admit your campaigns to sow doubts and support destabilization everywhere from Trump to brexit have been successful, but they have not gone unnoticed. __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

02-02-19, 05:56 PM	#6514
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 17,917 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	A question on Trumps relation to the countries military abilities and the countries abilities when it comes to gather information about other countries military abilities. Some days ago I could read Trump had "made nonsens" of a report on Iran's military strength. Does Trump have such a huge knowledge on what Iran can or can't, that he can do so ? Markus

02-03-19, 08:25 AM	#6523
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,963 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I am not in favor of dumping treaties and still am not sure that the President has the authority to unilaterally withdraw from a ratified treaty. But, that being written, The INF treaty going away is not cause to start building fallout shelters or stocking up on suicide pills. The INF treaty served a good and well defined purpose, 20-30 years ago. Technology has advanced to the point where both countries were well capable of killing massive amounts of people in the "intermediate" range without using the banned weapon systems. It is not much of a concern for the US as we are outside of the "Intermediate" range from the people who don't like us. Russia does not have that advantage. Banning specific types of weapon systems only by two parties made sense when only those two parties were stockpiling and deploying them. These days there are more than the original dance team on the floor. The INF treaty does not apply to them. Imagine a local situation where you have two neighbors in a rural area who don't like each other. Neighbor 1 and neighbor 2 agree that while they don't like each other, neither of them will stockpile machine guns. Then you have a new neighbor who also hates both of you, but does not agree not to stockpile machine guns. How would you feel about that? Well it might depend on whether you are in machine gun range of this new neighbor. If we are going to attempt to ban a specific type of weapon, it should be banned by more than just two countries. As drone and Cruise Missile technology continues to advance, the distinct ranges of missiles becomes more variable unlike the older ballistic missile technology. Back in the ol days, rockets and missiles had design range bands. It made it easier to characterize and easier to document in a treaty. These days, fixed range bands overlap. The days of characterizing rockets and missiles based on range bands may be obsolete. In any case, the withdrawal from the INF treaty, regardless of the wisdom or legality of that withdrawal does not mean that the world is suddenly more likely to turn in to Fallout4. We still have plenty of non Intermediate range weapon systems to make every in to a Supermutant. If the INF treaty were to survive, it would have to be redefined to recognize the changes in weapon technology and the number of players. That was probably not going to happen. I may not like the way the INF treaty is going away, but I am not especially fearful that it is going away. Rest assured, that all sides still have the capability of killing people, regardless of the range, and after all, that's what's important. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

02-03-19, 09:09 AM	#6524
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	The issue with the way INF died is not the military balance in Europe (though deploying Pershing-III like weapons to Poland and Baltics would see to that) but the way it affects other arms control treaties. For example I do not see new-START staying alive after this. __________________ Grumpy as always.