The missle defense issue...

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

One, we didn't ask you set up a missile defence shield for us.

Two, Apart from a few paranoid poles there is no threat from Russia, Russian government though not democratic in the sense of the world is hardly what I call tyrannical and quite frankly can't give a damn about eastern europe. Why do some people insist on thinking that Russia wants to storm back into to Eastern Europe?

The missile shield didn't work, it was a waste of money.

This.

The threat of Russian tanks rolling into Europe right now is slim to none, the threat of Russia starting a nuclear war is a lot less than that and in such a case the missile shield would be about as much use as an umbrella during any city bombing raid in WW 2. Though there is some bad blood between Russia and Estonia, no sense in denying that, I dont really see Russia as a credible threat, thoug the propaganda war must go on.

[Hakahura]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"A German"? Most Germans in autumn 1939 did not even know that the Nazis were about to stage something, they did not know that something was coming.

And Germany back then and Germany today - are two VERY different Germanies.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." (Hamlet Act 3, scene 2)

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"A German"? Most Germans in autumn 1939 did not even know that the Nazis were about to stage something, they did not know that something was coming.

And Germany back then and Germany today - are two VERY different Germanies.

Wow Deja Vue

[Kloef]

So Nato decided to build a shield together with Russia,finally something will be done to protect us from terrorist countries like Iran..thats one way of getting around a problem.

A shield has 2 functions,one is to protect the piece of earth its assigned to.
The other is detterence,you throw one at us,then we know where it came from and bomb you back in the stoneage,that is the true power of a shield.

The question at hand is,is it still usefull to keep Nato together,or should the E.U get out and do something on their own,truth is the U.S and Europe are like conjoined twins as far as Nato is concerned..

Maybe we should try to get Russia in Nato?

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Kloef

Maybe we should try to get Russia in Nato?

They are pressing for that very thing as we speak.

I dont see it happening I dont see Russia wanting to be involved with a bunch of limp wristed spineless do gooders ... so to speak.

Dont overlook one of the main motivations for changing the original plan. This ones easy, the original plan was a Bush program ergo inherantly flawed at least in their eyes.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Kloef

So Nato decided to build a shield together with Russia,finally something will be done to protect us from terrorist countries like Iran..thats one way of getting around a problem.

Will they build a shield together? And is the greatest threat from Iran ICBMs? I say it is proliferation, and dirty suitcase bombs.

A shield has 2 functions,one is to protect the piece of earth its assigned to.
The other is detterence,you throw one at us,then we know where it came from and bomb you back in the stoneage,that is the true power of a shield.

Could already be done right now, without that "shield".

The question at hand is,is it still usefull to keep Nato together,or should the E.U get out and do something on their own,truth is the U.S and Europe are like conjoined twins as far as Nato is concerned..

Question is if NATO still has a chance to manage to reinvent itself. that if fails so miseraly in Afghanistan showsd that it is less an alliance anmyore, but more a big split, a misunderstanding. It has not a nature and goal all memebers do agree upon anymore. and if one member, let'S say turkey, get enaged in a war with a regional threat outside NATO, let'S say Syria, I would not bet my moiney that everybody, for exaple the Greek, would come to their support. And the US wants a totally different, global, offensive role for the regional defnsive alliance that NAOT has been, anyway, and with that is pretty much against everybody in europe except maybe the British (or maybe even without them).

Maybe we should try to get Russia in Nato?

Better don'T even think of that. They will never accept that anyway. Russia is a power of itself. And European NATO members do not want to take responsibility for wars at Russia's border to the pacific.

[XabbaRus]

I like the way how some also like to spout that Britain and France declared war on Germany after she invaded Poland in the name of democracy.

Well 1930's Poland was hardly a democratic or tolerant place.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Poland's Jews weren't exactly well treated by their countrymen even before Hitler came along, pretty much how Jews weren't exactly well treated anywhere they were in eastern europe.

[Oberon]

I'd say the nation who is most at threat from Irans 'superduperuberweapons' is Israel.

[Kloef]

Quote:
Maybe we should try to get Russia in Nato?
Better don'T even think of that. They will never accept that anyway. Russia is a power of itself. And European NATO members do not want to take responsibility for wars at Russia's border to the pacific.

I was being sarcastic

Quote:
A shield has 2 functions,one is to protect the piece of earth its assigned to.
The other is detterence,you throw one at us,then we know where it came from and bomb you back in the stoneage,that is the true power of a shield.
Could already be done right now, without that "shield".

Thats not what i mean,if the Iranian terrorists know they will lose their precious bomb on a shield they will think twice before firing it.Not only will they lose their nuclear capability,they will be caught with their pance down..

As for suitcase bombs,that will have to be handled another way,for instance bombing of a suspected vehicle etc.,or kipnapping and eliminating key fugures..keeping knowledge private and not sharing it with 1000s of students from Arab countries as happened in the E.U and U.S and is still happening..its not bad being free and all,but we dont have to be stupid about it.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Correct me if I'm wrong but Poland's Jews weren't exactly well treated by their countrymen even before Hitler came along, pretty much how Jews weren't exactly well treated anywhere they were in eastern europe.

You mean they were isoloated, segrigated, tortured, and killed wholesale before that ?

[Hunter]

You mean they were isoloated, segrigated, tortured, and killed wholesale before that ?

Actually they were:

An ever increasing proportion of Jews in interwar Poland lived separate lives from the Polish majority. In 1921, 74.2 percent of Polish Jews listed Yiddish or Hebrew as their native language, but the number has risen to 87 percent by 1931 already, resulting in growing tensions between Jews and Poles.[49] Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals; a problem caused not only by the reversal of assimilation shown in national censuses between 1921 and 1931, but also, by the influx of Russian Jews escaping persecution especially in Ukraine where up to 2,000 pogroms took place in which an estimated 150,000 Jews were massacred.[50][51] A large number of Russian Jews emigrated to Poland, as they were entitled by the Peace treaty of Riga to choose the country they preferred; and so, several hundred thousand joined the already numerous Jewish minority of the Polish Second Republic. Resulting anti-Jewish sentiment in some of the media, discrimination, exclusion and violence at the universities and the appearance of "anti-Jewish squads" associated with some of the right wing political parties contributed to a greater support among the Jewish community for the radical Zionist and socialist ideas.[52][53] Increase in anti-semitic activity in pre-war Poland was nevertheless typical of anti-semitism found in other parts of Europe at that time. As such it was part of a broader, continent wide pattern with counterparts in every other european country.[54]
The matters improved for a time under the rule of Józef Piłsudski (1926–1935), who opposed anti-Semitism. Piłsudski countered Endecja's 'ethnic assimilation' with the 'state assimilation' policy: citizens were judged by their loyalty to the state, not by their nationality.[55] The years 1926–1935 were favourably viewed by many Polish Jews, whose situation improved especially under the cabinet of Pilsudski’s appointee Kazimierz Bartel.[56] However a combination of various reasons, including the Great Depression,[55] meant that the situation of Jewish Poles was never too satisfactory, and it deteriorated again after Piłsudski's death in May 1935, which many Jews regarded as a tragedy.[57]
With Endecja party influence growing antisemitism gathered new momentum in Poland and was most felt in smaller towns and spheres in which Jews came into direct contact with Poles, such as in Polish schools or on the sports field. Further academic harassment, such as the introduction of ghetto benches, which forced Jewish students to sit in section of the lecture halls reserved exclusively for them, anti-Jewish riots, and semi-official or unofficial quotas (Numerus clausus) introduced in 1937 in some universities halved the number of Jews in Polish universities between independence and the late 1930s. The restrictions were so inclusive that while in 1928 Jews made up 20.4% of the student population, by 1937 their share was down to only 7.5%.[58]
Although many Jews were educated, they were excluded from most of the relevant occupations, including the government bureaucracy. A good number therefore turned to the liberal professions, particularly medicine and law. In 1937 the Catholic trade unions of Polish doctors and lawyers restricted their new members to Christian Poles (in a similar manner the Jewish trade unions excluded non-Jewish professionals from their ranks after 1918). A series of professional and trade unions, including those for lawyers and physicians, enacted "Aryan clauses" expelling Polish Jews from their ranks.[59] The bulk of Jewish workers were organized in Jewish trade unions under the influence of the Jewish Labor Bund, which recognized the special cultural needs of the Jewish population, as well as special conditions arising from official descrimination against Jews in certain professions.[60] Jews were virtually excluded from Polish government jobs during this period.[61]
Between 1935 and 1937 seventy-nine Jews were killed and 500 injured in anti-Jewish incidents, there were also victims among the attackers.[63] National policy was such that jobless Jews, who largely worked at home or in small shops due to discrimination in employment, were excluded from welfare benefits.[64]
The national boycott of Jewish businesses and advocacy for their confiscation was promoted buy the Endecja party which introduced the term "Christian shop". A national movement to prevent the Jews from kosher slaughter of animals, with animal rights as the supposed motivation, was also organized. [65] Violence was also frequently aimed at Jewish stores and many of them were looted. At the same time, persistent economic boycotts and harassment including property-destroying riots, combined with the effects of the Great Depression that had been very severe on agricultural countries like Poland, reduced the standard of living of Poles and Polish Jews alike to the extent that by the end of the 1930s, a substantial portion of Polish Jews lived in grinding poverty.[66] The result was that at the eve of the Second World War, the Jewish community in Poland was large and vibrant internally, yet (with the exception of a few professionals) also substantially poorer and less integrated than the Jews in most of Western Europe.[citation needed]
The main strain of anti-semitism in Poland during this time was motivated by Catholic religious beliefs and centuries-old myths such as the blood libel. This religious based anti-semitism was sometimes joined with an ultra-nationalistic stereotype of Jews as disloyal to the Polish nation. On the Edge of Destruction: Jews of Poland Between the Two World Wars. Wayne State University Press, 1993.</ref> On the eve of World War II, many typical Polish Christians believed that there were far too many Jews in the country and the Polish government became increasingly concerned with the "Jewish Question". Some politicians were in favor of mass Jewish emigration from Poland. By the time of the German invasion in 1939, antisemitism was escalating, and hostility towards Jews was a mainstay of the right-wing political forces post-Piłsudski regime and even the Catholic Church. Discrimination and violence against Jews had rendered the Polish Jewish population increasingly destitute, as was the case throughout much of Central and Eastern Europe. Despite the impending threat to the Polish Republic from Nazi Germany, there was little effort seen in the way of reconciliation with Poland's Jewish population. In July 1939 the pro-government Gazeta Polska wrote "The fact that our relations with the Reich are worsening does not in the least deactivate our program in the Jewish question-there is not and cannot be any common ground between our internal Jewish problem and Poland's relations with the Hitlerite Reich."[67][68] Escalating hostility towards Polish Jews and an official Polish government desire of removing Jews from Poland continued right up until the German invasion of Poland.[69]

http://wiki.modis.su/en.wikipedia.or...in_Poland.html

Actually saying on pre-war Europe only a few countries can be described as democratic including non of East European except Czechoslovakia, which was sacrified to Hitler by the other two democracies though.

BTW continiuing off-topic. Kazimierz Bartel (Polish ex-prime minister) has interesting biography "After the invasion of Poland by the Soviet and subsequent occupation he was allowed to continue giving lectures at the Lviv Polytechnical Institute. In 1940 he was appointed to Moscow and offered a seat in the Soviet parliament. He refused and returned to Lviv." I thought former polish officilas were not allowed to occupy public roles with Soviets though some Poles made military carrier in Soviet army and secret services in 1941-45 after serving in Polish army in 1939.