[REL] Realistic Sinking Physics - Page 17

adseal · 07-29-07, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimitstexan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhaon

Hitpoints are unrealistic... there was no point when a ship in WWII blew up after enough damage like it does in vanilla SHIV.

The new system of this mod is far better but needs some adjustments... I think the flooding time is a bit slow, but the hitpoints are just fine... you could set a ship with HE shells ablaze or make the cargo blow up, but you could not make the whole ship explode by shooting at deck and below waterline with enough shells.

Ships, particularly small ships and most cargo vessels, would start to break up if you hit them with enough ordanance. Hit a 1500 ton merchant ship with 3 torpedos, and you are blowing apart her keel, among other things; she should go down in a minute or two. It is a situation where the whole of the "parts" (damage) is greater thant he sum of the "parts." Hit points do simulate that.

I see that it is a long investigation process...
I wonder why we do not try to connect it with damages model used in SH3? Wasit more different or ships in Atlantic sunk in other way than in Pacific? Maybe we should use also expirience from SH3 in consideration? What You think? ... (just free tinking maybe could start something good...)

regards
ad

Typhaon · 07-30-07, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nimitstexan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhaon

Hitpoints are unrealistic... there was no point when a ship in WWII blew up after enough damage like it does in vanilla SHIV.

The new system of this mod is far better but needs some adjustments... I think the flooding time is a bit slow, but the hitpoints are just fine... you could set a ship with HE shells ablaze or make the cargo blow up, but you could not make the whole ship explode by shooting at deck and below waterline with enough shells.

Ships, particularly small ships and most cargo vessels, would start to break up if you hit them with enough ordanance. Hit a 1500 ton merchant ship with 3 torpedos, and you are blowing apart her keel, among other things; she should go down in a minute or two. It is a situation where the whole of the "parts" (damage) is greater thant he sum of the "parts." Hit points do simulate that.

Yeah of course, but SHIV does not seem to simulate structural strengh well enough.
The problem with hitpoints is, that it does not matter where you hit the ship... it will explode when all HP are gone... and it will blast the whole deck... no matter if you only hit the rudder with 5 torps... thats the problem.. of course two torps which hit at exactly the same place would break almost any vessel in two parts, but SHIV does not simulate this... and still... even a small vessel hit by 3 torps would not nesseccarily break... it would have 3 gaping holes and go down real quick. Thats what I meant be readjusting the flooding times to improve the sinking times... for the htipoints... if the hitpoints were divided into zones on the ship and not one sum of hps for the whole ship you could simulate structural damage better... you could simulate fatal damage like breaking the keel or other important parts... but still this would not blast the whole ship... a ship can only explode as a whole, when something explosive is hit... like ammo or fuel... and this is in the game already... and in this mod.

tater · 07-30-07, 01:52 PM

Even with the hitpoints done away with (set high), the ships still have critical damage that will break their backs, etc. The more torps you hit with, the more chances for one to do a critical hit.

If this wasn;t true you'd never see NSM ships breaking in two, and you do see this.

I tend to be in the "no hitpoints" camp from that point of view. Or at least I think that hitpoints are way down the list of importance. In the case of warships, for sure though, infinite hitpoints. They have huge crews to do damage control, and you can still hit a magazine or something and blow it to pieces. Flooding or critcals should be the only way to ever sink a warship, IMO.

tater

Frederf · 07-30-07, 02:26 PM

Quote:

if the hitpoints were divided into zones on the ship and not one sum of hps for the whole ship you could simulate structural damage better... you could simulate fatal damage like breaking the keel or other important parts... but still this would not blast the whole ship... a ship can only explode as a whole, when something explosive is hit... like ammo or fuel... and this is in the game already... and in this mod.

Good point. Isn't this already the case?

WernerSobe · 07-31-07, 02:32 PM

its hard to tweak it out so everybody likes it. I realy have no idea which direction i should go next.

The majority seems to want them to sink faster. However ive been reading alot about sub warfare and from what i know i can tell that historicaly sinking times were very different. Some small ships could take hours to sink from many torpedoe hits, another realy big vessels sank from one hit in a matter of seconds.

This behavier is very hard to simulate in sh4. Ill need to get deeper into damage system to explain this.

1. there are overall hull hitpoints defined for every single vessel. Losing overall hull hitpoints means a total destruction of the ship. All compartments start flooding imidiataly, i think thats is to ensure that the wreck realy doesnt stay afloat.

2. Flooding compartments. Compartments are defined in zones.cfg. Not for every single ship, they are grouped to classes. There are sections for Merchants, Escorts, Battleship etc... So it is not possible to tweak compartments for every single ship. I can only tweak compartments for entire class, that what makes it so hard to balance.

3. Compartment hitpoints. Each compartment has its own hitpoints and armor level. This system still appears in this mod. In stock sh4 these hitpoints are less important, in most cases overall hitpoints are consumed before enough compartments are destroyed. In this mod the hull hitpoints has been set to a very high value so compartment hitpoints became much more important. The compartments can be just damaged and only flood to half. Or they can be destroyed and damage compartments nearby so they start flooding too.
Again the compartments hitpoints cannot be defined for every single ship but only for entire class.

leovampire · 07-31-07, 02:46 PM

One that is ultra realistic for the die hard sim guys and one that falls inbetween what the stock game provides and what you did originaly. That is the easiest way to satisfy almost everyone.

Seaman_Hornsby · 07-31-07, 03:19 PM

I've been testing this mod a bit now and think it works pretty well. I like the variety of sinking behaviors caused by flooding from hits in different parts of a ship.

My only gripe is that ships seem to linger at the surface too long after their decks are awash or actually below the surface. If it is possible to reduce this behavior (CaptainHaplo's floatability suggestion?) I think you'd have a real winner on your hands.

chopped50ford · 07-31-07, 05:09 PM

IM for realistic.

If I dont have to wait hours for a "sink" message, that would be great.

I know in real life, ships didnt just fall to the bottom like a rock even though a torpedo just struck its keel.

Even split-up ships bobbed because of trapped air.

I personally would like to see more visual "eye-candy" explosions, holes, etc.

Heh, I sank a Minelayer yesterday with my deck gun, 3 visible holes in the hull below the waterline in different places...10 min later...abondon ship.

I love it.

phloon · 08-01-07, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

3. Compartment hitpoints. Each compartment has its own hitpoints and armor level. This system still appears in this mod. In stock sh4 these hitpoints are less important, in most cases overall hitpoints are consumed before enough compartments are destroyed. In this mod the hull hitpoints has been set to a very high value so compartment hitpoints became much more important. The compartments can be just damaged and only flood to half. Or they can be destroyed and damage compartments nearby so they start flooding too.
Again the compartments hitpoints cannot be defined for every single ship but only for entire class.

I think some tweaks in the compartment hitpoints section will complete this mod. The current rate of sinking (v1.3, no mods besides NSM) feels right-- you get a variety of sinkings depending on hit location, criticals, etc. Adjusting the compartment hitpoints will make multiple hits to the same location more effective than they seem to be now.

switch.dota · 08-01-07, 07:00 AM

I might be missing somethign obvious, but is this compatible with Trigger Maru 1.4? They both affect some Zones file...

WernerSobe · 08-01-07, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by switch.dota

I might be missing somethign obvious, but is this compatible with Trigger Maru 1.4? They both affect some Zones file...

TM has just trippled flooding times from stock zones.cfg. Since all flooding times are reworked by this mod anyway it doesnt bite with TM. Just make sure to install NSM over TM. You wont lose anything from TM.

TM has tweaked some hitpoints and armorlevels in .zon ship files. This mod set all hitpoints to 20000 to make sure the ships sink by boyancy and not by hitpoints. So this will neither bite with TM as long you install NSM over it.

WernerSobe · 08-01-07, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phloon

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

3. Compartment hitpoints. Each compartment has its own hitpoints and armor level. This system still appears in this mod. In stock sh4 these hitpoints are less important, in most cases overall hitpoints are consumed before enough compartments are destroyed. In this mod the hull hitpoints has been set to a very high value so compartment hitpoints became much more important. The compartments can be just damaged and only flood to half. Or they can be destroyed and damage compartments nearby so they start flooding too.
Again the compartments hitpoints cannot be defined for every single ship but only for entire class.

I think some tweaks in the compartment hitpoints section will complete this mod. The current rate of sinking (v1.3, no mods besides NSM) feels right-- you get a variety of sinkings depending on hit location, criticals, etc. Adjusting the compartment hitpoints will make multiple hits to the same location more effective than they seem to be now.

Ive been tweaking there a lot. It doesnt have much impact because the compartment hitpoints and armorlevels in stock were set close to nothing so compartments were always destroyed from a torpedo hit. Ive increased compartment hitpoints for all warships but let the ones for merchants almost untouched. Tweaking there is not easy because it must be balanced with floatability for every compartment.

CCIP · 08-01-07, 11:24 AM

This is an outstanding mod which was one of the biggest things I was missing since NYGM's damage model in SHIII. I've sunk about a dozen merchants with it so far and have not run into any bugs.

Please keep it up and squash whatever problems there were. I can't play without this anymore

Bando · 08-01-07, 11:49 AM

CCIP, haven't seen you for a while.
Hope your PC is up and running and you're doing good.

WernerSobe · 08-01-07, 12:01 PM

BREAKTROUGH

Ive found where the compartment layout is defined for every single ship. That opens up huge possibilities. Till now all ships were using compartment groups and i could only change compartment setup for all warships or all merchants. Now i can design a compartment layout for every ship. It will make possible to tweak a single ship or add effects to a single ship without affecting other ships of same class. This will be a lot of work and take a while so be patient.

Just imagine how often ill need to restart the game when changing and testing every single compartment for every single ship.

07-30-07, 01:52 PM	#243
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Even with the hitpoints done away with (set high), the ships still have critical damage that will break their backs, etc. The more torps you hit with, the more chances for one to do a critical hit. If this wasn;t true you'd never see NSM ships breaking in two, and you do see this. I tend to be in the "no hitpoints" camp from that point of view. Or at least I think that hitpoints are way down the list of importance. In the case of warships, for sure though, infinite hitpoints. They have huge crews to do damage control, and you can still hit a magazine or something and blow it to pieces. Flooding or critcals should be the only way to ever sink a warship, IMO. tater Last edited by tater; 07-30-07 at 07:17 PM.

07-31-07, 02:46 PM	#246
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	just make 2 vs WernerSobe One that is ultra realistic for the die hard sim guys and one that falls inbetween what the stock game provides and what you did originaly. That is the easiest way to satisfy almost everyone. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

07-31-07, 03:19 PM	#247
Seaman_Hornsby Engineer Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 203 Downloads: 71 Uploads: 0	I've been testing this mod a bit now and think it works pretty well. I like the variety of sinking behaviors caused by flooding from hits in different parts of a ship. My only gripe is that ships seem to linger at the surface too long after their decks are awash or actually below the surface. If it is possible to reduce this behavior (CaptainHaplo's floatability suggestion?) I think you'd have a real winner on your hands. __________________ Friends, when once a man is launched on such an adventure as this, he must bid farewell to hopes and fears, otherwise death or deliverance will both come too late to save his honor and his reason.

07-31-07, 05:09 PM	#248
chopped50ford Weps Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bentonville, AR Posts: 367 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	IM for realistic. If I dont have to wait hours for a "sink" message, that would be great. I know in real life, ships didnt just fall to the bottom like a rock even though a torpedo just struck its keel. Even split-up ships bobbed because of trapped air. I personally would like to see more visual "eye-candy" explosions, holes, etc. Heh, I sank a Minelayer yesterday with my deck gun, 3 visible holes in the hull below the waterline in different places...10 min later...abondon ship. I love it. __________________ TM2(SS) USS Asheville - Plankowner, Shellback, "Order of the Ditch" http://ths-i.com/

08-01-07, 11:24 AM	#253
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	This is an outstanding mod which was one of the biggest things I was missing since NYGM's damage model in SHIII. I've sunk about a dozen merchants with it so far and have not run into any bugs. Please keep it up and squash whatever problems there were. I can't play without this anymore __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

07-31-07, 02:32 PM	#245
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	its hard to tweak it out so everybody likes it. I realy have no idea which direction i should go next. The majority seems to want them to sink faster. However ive been reading alot about sub warfare and from what i know i can tell that historicaly sinking times were very different. Some small ships could take hours to sink from many torpedoe hits, another realy big vessels sank from one hit in a matter of seconds. This behavier is very hard to simulate in sh4. Ill need to get deeper into damage system to explain this. 1. there are overall hull hitpoints defined for every single vessel. Losing overall hull hitpoints means a total destruction of the ship. All compartments start flooding imidiataly, i think thats is to ensure that the wreck realy doesnt stay afloat. 2. Flooding compartments. Compartments are defined in zones.cfg. Not for every single ship, they are grouped to classes. There are sections for Merchants, Escorts, Battleship etc... So it is not possible to tweak compartments for every single ship. I can only tweak compartments for entire class, that what makes it so hard to balance. 3. Compartment hitpoints. Each compartment has its own hitpoints and armor level. This system still appears in this mod. In stock sh4 these hitpoints are less important, in most cases overall hitpoints are consumed before enough compartments are destroyed. In this mod the hull hitpoints has been set to a very high value so compartment hitpoints became much more important. The compartments can be just damaged and only flood to half. Or they can be destroyed and damage compartments nearby so they start flooding too. Again the compartments hitpoints cannot be defined for every single ship but only for entire class.

08-01-07, 07:00 AM	#250
switch.dota Captain Join Date: May 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 492 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I might be missing somethign obvious, but is this compatible with Trigger Maru 1.4? They both affect some Zones file...

08-01-07, 11:49 AM	#254
Bando Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Where you don't see me Posts: 607 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	CCIP, haven't seen you for a while. Hope your PC is up and running and you're doing good. __________________ Regards, Bando

08-01-07, 12:01 PM	#255
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	BREAKTROUGH Ive found where the compartment layout is defined for every single ship. That opens up huge possibilities. Till now all ships were using compartment groups and i could only change compartment setup for all warships or all merchants. Now i can design a compartment layout for every ship. It will make possible to tweak a single ship or add effects to a single ship without affecting other ships of same class. This will be a lot of work and take a while so be patient. Just imagine how often ill need to restart the game when changing and testing every single compartment for every single ship.