UK Politics Thread

[Catfish]

What exactly is the "terrible brexit deal"?
"Terrible brexit" will probably be more exact.



England will not have much say in European matters after any brexit, i guess this should be understood?

So May wants to keep England /the UK (probably to soothe Ireland and Scotland, and keep England competitive) in the single market.

The latter is obvioulsly being seen as "treacherous" by the Brits?

It is also not seen as possible by the EU, since the initial and only reason for the existence of the EU is access to the single market by its members without currency and customs problems, and a free ware and scientific exchange.

So you want to leave, but keep all advantages. Apart of a smell of cherry-picking this is most probably not possible. If the brexiters demand this they are delusional. If they say that May "wrecks" their brexit by trying to keep the UK having access to the single market they are just dumb.
I have some good advice for those big mouth brexiters: Do it yourself!

[Jimbuna]

Personally, I believe the main dislikes of said deal (during the transition period) is the ECJ will continue to have the final say, it will be nigh on impossible to conduct trade deals with other countries and the real big one is the Backstop arrangement for NI.

[Catfish]

Thanks Will have to read through this 'backstop' thiss evening, i admit i don't quite understand it, or its implications.
Whatever, Ireland was the #1 problem from day one of a "brexit". How do the brexiters want to solve this?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Thanks Will have to read through this 'backstop' thiss evening, i admit i don't quite understand it, or its implications.
Whatever, Ireland was the #1 problem from day one of a "brexit". How do the brexiters want to solve this?

That is the million dollar question....there are a great many differing views/opinions out there.

My own is that I don't want the UK to simply crash out with no deal at all because we are allies and friends of Europe and its individual countries.

I'd far rather a compromise was reached otherwise great damage will be done to the economies of each others countries.

What that compromise should be? I couldn't honestly say but hopefully the politicians will work something out that is mutually beneficial to us all.

Irish backstop explained:https://www.ft.com/content/f18fda2e-...2-17176fbf93f5

[Skybird]

Just worth to say: the leave of the UKs economic power from the bloc equals a situation as if the 18 smallest economies of the bloc would leave alltogether.


Maybe this illustrates how insane the whole conception of the EU today indeed is. I do not know one historic example where a union of so tremendously diverse economic weights has ever worked over a noteworthy ammount of time. And if Germany after three decades still cannot equalise the situation and dysbalance regarding East and West German federal states after reunification, how realistic is it to asume one could acchieve that with many more actors involved and on a continnetal level, and with much great space for national egoisms playing intrigues and abuses?


Damn. Planned. Economies.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Catfish

What exactly is the "terrible brexit deal"?
"Terrible brexit" will probably be more exact.



England will not have much say in European matters after any brexit, i guess this should be understood?

With May deal the UK indeed has not much to say - but must stay obedient to EU legislations and regulations, and cannot negotiate new bilateral trade agreements with anyone outside the EU block, I seem to recall. It looses all rights, but keeps all duties, and for this even needs to pay many billlions of Euros as a farewell bill.



Without a deal it still has nothing to say,of course (its no member then anyomore) but must not keep EU laws and regulations, can internationally negotiate as it wants (which it cannot do under May's deal), and it most likely will not pay any divorce bill at all.



The status of the UK being a submissive, paying vasall without any say on any matters could be extended as long as the EU wants, if the backstop option gets pulled by the EU. This will be decided on by the EU court, and England shall have no say on that as well.



From an English position, this deal is suicidal and insane. Its a total and complete surrender and puts England completely at the mercy of Brussel.


Insane and suicidal, are the words to keep on mind here. I must meet the UK in the future with great contempt if it agrees to such a desaster, I'm sorry to say. I would find it most disappointing, or better: desillusionising if the UK agrees to this.


Honestly said, as the UK I would pull the intel and security card and threaten to coimnpletely switch off any intel exchange programs. The UK intel sevrice is a major player surpassing kost European powers in thsi regard, and the rest of Europe benefits muich more from the capaicty mof thegnopsib services than theEnglish benefit from feedback from the continent. In times of cyberwarfare, Ialamic trerrorism, Russian new ways of atypöicvla warfare an dChinese econo9mic spiu9onage, this isa a very tough card to play that cannot be iognored. I would also threaten to leave the NATO block.



Its now high time tos tart playing real hard and brutal - like th eEu did form all beginning on. All that soft sweety whispers and hopes paid off for nothing. Lets get top the facts, and the fact is that the EU has used its power to all extenct, has not made any seriosu concession and now threatens to pull the UK completely over thr table. And May, this carricature of a thinking mind, even bends over and lets everythign happen, calling this the best option of all. By history, i have a very different image and impression of the English mentlaity and poride, but maybe I live as somebody who has fallen out of time.


Let the Germans pay for all this, they are dump enough to do so and it makes them happy and allows them to feel that they are collecting heavenly scoring points for the afterlife. The more self-sacrificing they can be, the better they feel.

[Catfish]

In the referendum neither side said that Leave meant leaving the customs union or the single market - quite to the contrary.
Boris Johnson said he had mentioned it via twitter, but he lied.

[Skybird]

[Catfish]

Government accused of scaremongering over migrant NHS fraud

Comments are best, as always..

"Donald Trump could not have done better. Of course politicians who tell the truth do not last long but there is a difference between £712.56. and 19 million that even a Tory should be able to notice. Perhaps they need a new Maths teacher at Eton."

I wonder how the real card-abuse stats are here. But as said, facts don't matter anyway in our post-factual times.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

With May deal the UK indeed has not much to say - but must stay obedient to EU legislations and regulations, and cannot negotiate new bilateral trade agreements with anyone outside the EU block, I seem to recall. It looses all rights, but keeps all duties, and for this even needs to pay many billlions of Euros as a farewell bill.



Without a deal it still has nothing to say,of course (its no member then anyomore) but must not keep EU laws and regulations, can internationally negotiate as it wants (which it cannot do under May's deal), and it most likely will not pay any divorce bill at all.



The status of the UK being a submissive, paying vasall without any say on any matters could be extended as long as the EU wants, if the backstop option gets pulled by the EU. This will be decided on by the EU court, and England shall have no say on that as well.



From an English position, this deal is suicidal and insane. Its a total and complete surrender and puts England completely at the mercy of Brussel.


Insane and suicidal, are the words to keep on mind here. I must meet the UK in the future with great contempt if it agrees to such a desaster, I'm sorry to say. I would find it most disappointing, or better: desillusionising if the UK agrees to this.


Honestly said, as the UK I would pull the intel and security card and threaten to coimnpletely switch off any intel exchange programs. The UK intel sevrice is a major player surpassing kost European powers in thsi regard, and the rest of Europe benefits muich more from the capaicty mof thegnopsib services than theEnglish benefit from feedback from the continent. In times of cyberwarfare, Ialamic trerrorism, Russian new ways of atypöicvla warfare an dChinese econo9mic spiu9onage, this isa a very tough card to play that cannot be iognored. I would also threaten to leave the NATO block.



Its now high time tos tart playing real hard and brutal - like th eEu did form all beginning on. All that soft sweety whispers and hopes paid off for nothing. Lets get top the facts, and the fact is that the EU has used its power to all extenct, has not made any seriosu concession and now threatens to pull the UK completely over thr table. And May, this carricature of a thinking mind, even bends over and lets everythign happen, calling this the best option of all. By history, i have a very different image and impression of the English mentlaity and poride, but maybe I live as somebody who has fallen out of time.


Let the Germans pay for all this, they are dump enough to do so and it makes them happy and allows them to feel that they are collecting heavenly scoring points for the afterlife. The more self-sacrificing they can be, the better they feel.

Spoken like a true Brit

[STEED]

If this gets passed then Maybot will be unstoppable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46384207

I'm on a tablet and the sod will not highlight the news bit.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Spoken like a true Brit

Ok I have listed all those words Skybird uses to discredit, which often enough are based on Farage's, Trump's and Bannon's (false) claims and rhetorics:

".. not much to say.. stay obedient.. loses all rights.. keeps all duties.. needs to pay billions, submissive.. paying vasall [Johnson/Farage speak b.t.w.].. England shall have no say.. suicidal and insane.. total and complete surrender..puts England completely at the mercy of Brussel.. contempt.. a disaster.. most disappointing.. desillusionising.. hopes paid off for nothing..EU has used its power.. threatens to pull the UK completely over thr table.."

Hate speech? Delusional? "Patriotic"? Not one word about how absurd the whole brexit idea was, how the populistic right betrayed the people to get their agenda through. "Spoken like a true Brit" indeed. You can have him lol

With May deal the UK indeed has not much to say - but must stay obedient to EU legislations and regulations, and cannot negotiate new bilateral trade agreements with anyone outside the EU block, I seem to recall. It looses all rights, but keeps all duties, and for this even needs to pay many billlions of Euros as a farewell bill.

The UK will not have much to say with or without May. Brexit means clearly no say in European matters after this. If the EU is wise enough it may still listen to England's opinions and advice, but it is not longer mandatory. The smaller not-quite-in-the-EU-states will have to look for other factions.
Again, the EU was formed to have trade agreements within or outside of the EU. England can do this, but it will have to be more competitive then.

"It loses all rights", this is so idiotic. Of course it does. No club member, no say in the club.
And England will still have to accept international law and duties (not the EU's fault), something the EU has softened within its range of power. Life outside is harder, of course. This is why the EU was created.

Someone leaving the EU costs the EU money, and it has to make up for the evaluated loss, yes. A contract that was voluntarily signed by the UK and which is binding. If Johnson or Farage forgot to mention that, along with losing access to the single market with their brexit, again: It. Is. Not. The. EU.'s fault.

Without a deal it still has nothing to say,of course (its no member then anyomore) but must not keep EU laws and regulations, can internationally negotiate as it wants (which it cannot do under May's deal), and it most likely will not pay any divorce bill at all.

England can negotiate internationally, of course. But regarding trade with the EU it has to keep to certain conditions and regulations, and also to customs reintroduced by their own willing. This also means no selling of chloride chicken (like in the US), and it means a lot of certain safety regulations, which have been in existence long before the EU or England's joining. This is completely self-evident, or do you think Europe will buy an electric device that is unsafe, and cannot be given back due to a missing product guarantee (or vice versa)? Again what the hell do you expect?

If England gets out without deal and without paying, i guess this will leave a mark. If they do not respect treaties, why should anyone have trade with them? Of course, there's the second financial Empire which will always stay afloat. Unfortunately this does not incorporate the wellbeing of the common citizens.

The status of the UK being a submissive, paying vasall without any say on any matters could be extended as long as the EU wants, if the backstop option gets pulled by the EU. This will be decided on by the EU court, and England shall have no say on that as well.

The UK will have to pay for the amount that the EU would get for a year, if the UK stayed. Treaty. This is neither unfair nor unrealistic. Because all those EU projects (like e.g. rebuilding Manchester with EU money) has to be planned in advance, speaking of months and years. Such projects involving long-term planning and money cannot simply be stopped, or cut dead.

From an English position, this deal is suicidal and insane. Its a total and complete surrender and puts England completely at the mercy of Brussel.

If it is "suicidal and insane", (which I doubt, as I explained above; also the sky will not fall) it would have been a good idea to think about it before believing Farage, Bannon or Trump.

Insane and suicidal, are the words to keep on mind here. I must meet the UK in the future with great contempt if it agrees to such a desaster, I'm sorry to say. I would find it most disappointing, or better: desillusionising if the UK agrees to this.

Oh, you are so "sorry". So what is your proposal, without breaking treaties? Break them?

Honestly said, as the UK I would pull the intel and security card and threaten to coimnpletely switch off any intel exchange programs. The UK intel sevrice is a major player surpassing kost European powers in thsi regard, and the rest of Europe benefits muich more from the capaicty mof thegnopsib services than theEnglish benefit from feedback from the continent. In times of cyberwarfare, Ialamic trerrorism, Russian new ways of atypöicvla warfare an dChinese econo9mic spiu9onage, this isa a very tough card to play that cannot be iognored. I would also threaten to leave the NATO block.

The BND or the French services, along with "a few" others are not as bad as you think. If certain services do not make it into the headlines all the time it is probably not a bad idea. Do you believe in James Bond movies? If or how MI6 acts is of course important, but why should brexit severe those ties? Such information interchange among western nations is above all petty trivia, and in international interest.

Leave the NATO and also have no say there anymore? Bad idea like brexit.

Maybe Europe will come to grips now and create an own army that is capable of something. Like the EVP project back then, which was undermined by France, and.. England.

Its now high time tos tart playing real hard and brutal - like th eEu did form all beginning on. All that soft sweety whispers and hopes paid off for nothing. Lets get top the facts, and the fact is that the EU has used its power to all extenct, has not made any seriosu concession and now threatens to pull the UK completely over thr table. And May, this carricature of a thinking mind, even bends over and lets everythign happen, calling this the best option of all. By history, i have a very different image and impression of the English mentlaity and poride, but maybe I live as somebody who has fallen out of time.

The EU has a standfast negotiating position since day one of brexit. All of the EU leaders have made perfectly clear what brexit means. If some people in England were delusional of what happens and what brexit means for England, it is high time to be confronted with reality.

Let the Germans pay for all this, they are dump enough to do so and it makes them happy and allows them to feel that they are collecting heavenly scoring points for the afterlife. The more self-sacrificing they can be, the better they feel.

Oh please, speak for yourself.

[Skybird]

Corbyn's ideas on what there can be for an altenative Brexit in core points already has been ruled out by the EU, and it is this kind of attempted cherry picking where already May went rock bottom. Has he already been in winter hibernation in the past 18 months that he did not note it and repeats this old stuff?

[Jimbuna]

Corbyns 'achilles heel' on the subject of Brexit is the fact he has always been anti-EU and has voted against his own whip/alongside the Tories on this and similar matters on over 200+ (I forget the exact figure) occasions during his time in Parliament.

[skidman]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Someone leaving the EU costs the EU money, and it has to make up for the evaluated loss, yes. A contract that was voluntarily signed by the UK and which is binding. If Johnson or Farage forgot to mention that, along with losing access to the single market with their brexit, again: It. Is. Not. The. EU.'s fault.

A simple truth which the former rulers of the waves usually fail to consider. All in all the most elaborate post in this thread for a long time. Congrats.