way too hard!

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

There is nothing you can simulate about being in a uboat with paper, pencils, and dice, unless you are actually using a paper, pencils, and dice inside a uboat.

First of all, if you are going to quote me and then challenge my statement, at least please challenge the statement I actually made. That was, as you quoted:

On the contrary, it is perfectly possible to simulate some aspects of submarine warfare quite accurately using paper, pencils, and dice. It all depends on which aspects you wish to simulate, and to what level of accuracy.

(Emphasis added.)

Professionally, I have simulated some aspects of submarine warfare (ASW detection, submarine evasive measures) well enough, using pencil, paper, and a hand-held calculator for random-number generation, to answer questions raised by US Navy personnel regarding very basic tactical situations, in a meeting in real-time. It certainly can be done.

As for simulating "...being in a uboat," of course that can be done. Issues such as oxygen depletion during different activities, crew fatigue, communications accuracy, order response time, etc, etc, can all be simulated quite effectively and easily with simple pencil-and-paper models. These are certainly all aspects of "...being in a uboat."

Can we simulate the physical environment of being in a submarine with pencil and paper? Of course not. Can we simulate the threat of immiment death that is present in a combat situation? Not in any game I want to play.

Old and weak joke: "Reality! The ultimate simulation!"

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

Can we simulate the threat of immiment death that is present in a combat situation? Not in any game I want to play.

Way back in the late '70s when I first started playing the miniatures airwar game I still play today, we were playing a North Africa scenario in a rented room at the local Multipurpose Center. A couple of small, white-haired gents with thick accents came in and were fascinated. They started asking if the game represented the failings of different aircraft types. When we said yes, they started advising the players on the German side, and before we knew it British planes were dropping like flies. They said they were former Dutch pilots, but when we showed them one of our Dutch models they didn't recognize the markings. On the other hand they could identify the Bf-109s right down to the tropicalized air filters. It took a bit of cajoling, but they were indeed former Luftwaffe pilots.

How this all relates is the comment made by one of them before they left us: "This is wonderful! You get all the excitement of air battles, but no one has to die."

[Max Montana]

Hello guys,

Just a note that this is GWX 3.0

So it is July 1940, I am intercepting enemy convoy just 500km from the Channel, heading to North Africa most likely.

In the process of continious hydrophone checking I have run into this convoy steaming right into me, and even though I wanted to sneak in night time, I decided to use a chance and infiltrate head on.

Having found that head escort is rarely patrolling but rather going straight, I took upon a parallel course a hundred meters to the frigate's starboard.

Depth is 80m, silent running on 1kn. I am able to pass through it, but when I am at her ~90 degrees she suddenly turns the sonar on and starts to depth charge the area.

Although her attack was far from accurate, it has frightened the convoy making it harder for me to strike when I am in the middle of it, few dozens of minutes later.
I should also add that the weather was quite stormy (You couldn't use a deck gun for comparison)


The question: Is it normal? I mean, I would understand this kind of marvelous hearing at later years, maybe even in 1941. This is way too unrealistic though, and even as I am still conducting successful attacks I am thinking to abandon the idea of conducting any type of surface attack (that I am yet to try) if escorts are this overbuffed in GWX.

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Max Montana

Hello guys,

Just a note that this is GWX 3.0

So it is July 1940, I am intercepting enemy convoy just 500km from the Channel, heading to North Africa most likely.

In the process of continious hydrophone checking I have run into this convoy steaming right into me, and even though I wanted to sneak in night time, I decided to use a chance and infiltrate head on.

Having found that head escort is rarely patrolling but rather going straight, I took upon a parallel course a hundred meters to the frigate's starboard.

Depth is 80m, silent running on 1kn. I am able to pass through it, but when I am at her ~90 degrees she suddenly turns the sonar on and starts to depth charge the area.

Although her attack was far from accurate, it has frightened the convoy making it harder for me to strike when I am in the middle of it, few dozens of minutes later.
I should also add that the weather was quite stormy (You couldn't use a deck gun for comparison)


The question: Is it normal? I mean, I would understand this kind of marvelous hearing at later years, maybe even in 1941. This is way too unrealistic though, and even as I am still conducting successful attacks I am thinking to abandon the idea of conducting any type of surface attack (that I am yet to try) if escorts are this overbuffed in GWX.

First of all, welcome to SubSim!

“Silent Running” does not mean what it says. Silent running is not silent. It is quiet, as quiet as a 200-foot-long, steel sewer pipe full of 40 men and lots of equipment can make itself. But it is never silent. The planes have to move, the rudder has to move, the electric motors run, the shafts turn in their bearings. Water drips, a man farts, the cook drops a spoon. All small, quiet noises, but sound travels remarkably well through water. If the boat is close to a sensitive listening device, someone may pick up a small sound, and the escort captain may “light up” the sonar and even drop a few depth charges just in the chance that they will frighten off a possible intruder. It’s only a possible detection, but it can be enough to spoil an attack.

Think of a hybrid car pulling up to a stop sign. It is quiet, very quiet compared to a diesel garbage truck. But it’s not silent, especially if you are standing close to it. You will know that a 15-foot-long, 3500 lb vehicle just went by.

In game terms, hydrophone contact is simulated by a detection probability. This probability is checked against a random number at regular intervals, probably once every second or so. Running “silent” at 1 kt, the probability of detection should be pretty low. But it is finite, and so detection (in the game) is possible. Remember, your chances of winning the lottery are very small, but somebody wins all the time. And the probability of detection at 100 m is four times as great as at 200 m.

I’ve played GWX a fair amount. I didn’t find the escorts to be overrated, especially early in the war. I’d suggest you not draw too strong a lesson from one event. Play a little more to get a better feel for what works and what doesn’t.

Good luck and good hunting!

[Sailor Steve]

Welcome aboard, Max!

BigWalleye just gave an excellent summation, so I only have one thing further to add:

Originally Posted by BigWalleye

...a man farts...

STOP TALKING ABOUT ME!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Welcome Max :-)

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Welcome aboard, Max!

BigWalleye just gave an excellent summation, so I only have one thing further to add:


STOP TALKING ABOUT ME!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist.

It was a dirty job, but somebody had to do it.

[Max Montana]

Thank you all for your responces and kind words,

I guess than, what is the reliable distance from the enemy escort that has a low chance of detection? I know it is variable, of course.

Also, if it is possible to hear me in such dire circumstances, maybe it is better to go directly under the escort then? Or are they regularly conducting sonar checks?

While I am still relatively new to the game, I can tell that even Happy times are far from easy, never I was able to sneak in undetected, even though I still wind up in the middle of a convoy formation blasting torpedoes left&right. I found that diving to subcritical depth and just waiting is usually enough since all escorts assume that I am moving to the side, and are not anticipating me to remain in the very same spot I have done the attack.

[Aktungbby]

Max Montana!

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to SubSim Max

[Zosimus]

I can't say what others do, but for me, I target the largest ship I can in the convoy and hit it with a two-torpedo salvo. As soon as I click fire I call for a dive. I don't change course at all because I find that changing course and diving at the same time causes boat speed to drop and increases the amount of time necessary to reach a good depth. I can usually hit 40 meters under before the torpedoes hit. I usually try to go to 160+ meters under. If I hit 140 meters under and still no pinging, I level off and resume my course to take me out and around the convoy again.

[Simdude]

There's nothing wrong with using time compression, you just have to be choosy with when you use it. I'll use TC very often: whether i'm setting up an attack on a lone merchant, or trying to escape some escorts after attacking a convoy...i'm constantly switching to anywhere from 1x to 32x. Of course i'm at 1x when say a destroyer is right above me dropping charges...but once he's 500 plus meters away i'll bump up the TC a notch or two for a few moments, maybe bump it back down to 1x and up periscope for a moment to make sure he's not still heading in my immediate direction, then up to 32x until i'm far enough away to secure from silent running. Quite frankly, it's a bit boring and time consuming to just sit there waiting to see if the escort is still detecting me, and TC will quickly make it obvious whether he still detects me or is just searching my old position and dropping charges on nothing. Plus i do use 1048x while simply sailing or when there's no detectable ships nearby...i want a patrol to be a fun and interesting afternoon or evening, not a slow week of 20-30 hours simming SH3, with moments of excitement here and there.

[UKönig]

Originally Posted by Simdude

There's nothing wrong with using time compression, you just have to be choosy with when you use it. I'll use TC very often: whether i'm setting up an attack on a lone merchant, or trying to escape some escorts after attacking a convoy...i'm constantly switching to anywhere from 1x to 32x. Of course i'm at 1x when say a destroyer is right above me dropping charges...but once he's 500 plus meters away i'll bump up the TC a notch or two for a few moments, maybe bump it back down to 1x and up periscope for a moment to make sure he's not still heading in my immediate direction, then up to 32x until i'm far enough away to secure from silent running. Quite frankly, it's a bit boring and time consuming to just sit there waiting to see if the escort is still detecting me, and TC will quickly make it obvious whether he still detects me or is just searching my old position and dropping charges on nothing. Plus i do use 1048x while simply sailing or when there's no detectable ships nearby...i want a patrol to be a fun and interesting afternoon or evening, not a slow week of 20-30 hours simming SH3, with moments of excitement here and there.

Agreed!

[20000 Leagues]

Originally Posted by Simdude

There's nothing wrong with using time compression, you just have to be choosy with when you use it. I'll use TC very often: whether i'm setting up an attack on a lone merchant, or trying to escape some escorts after attacking a convoy...i'm constantly switching to anywhere from 1x to 32x. Of course i'm at 1x when say a destroyer is right above me dropping charges...but once he's 500 plus meters away i'll bump up the TC a notch or two for a few moments, maybe bump it back down to 1x and up periscope for a moment to make sure he's not still heading in my immediate direction, then up to 32x until i'm far enough away to secure from silent running. Quite frankly, it's a bit boring and time consuming to just sit there waiting to see if the escort is still detecting me, and TC will quickly make it obvious whether he still detects me or is just searching my old position and dropping charges on nothing. Plus i do use 1048x while simply sailing or when there's no detectable ships nearby...i want a patrol to be a fun and interesting afternoon or evening, not a slow week of 20-30 hours simming SH3, with moments of excitement here and there.

I'm with you! It took me some practice (and lots of getting sunk) to learn the right balance of TC and 1:1. Swimming in DC's isn't the time for TC. I've found once you dart away from the DC's, slow the motors, watch your phones and you can usually TC away from the escort.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Originally Posted by 20000 Leagues

I'm with you! It took me some practice (and lots of getting sunk) to learn the right balance of TC and 1:1. Swimming in DC's isn't the time for TC. I've found once you dart away from the DC's, slow the motors, watch your phones and you can usually TC away from the escort.

It's the same with me. I use TC only after I'm sure the destroyers have lost contact with me. If they start depth charging an area that I'm not in, that's usually a good indication. I'll then use 4x TC to get some distance.