[REL] Air Torpedos/Torpedo Bombers revisited and working!

[VONHARRIS]

Thank you for your reply , Rubini.
I will do so when I return (if I return) from my current patrol.

Edit: I tried to do that in another installation but I seem to miss something.
I have opened the sensors.dat file in the Library folder but as you can see there is no Visual sensor


What am I missing here?

EDIT : Never mind , I found it. Thank you again.

So I understand correctly, there is no underwater 3d torpedo model for the "Air Torpedo", but there is one for the FIDO?

I haven't seen any of the torpedoes yet, using both loadouts and I keep my eyes on the target ship underwater even up through the explosion.

[Rubini]

Originally Posted by machiavelli

So I understand correctly, there is no underwater 3d torpedo model for the "Air Torpedo", but there is one for the FIDO?

I haven't seen any of the torpedoes yet, using both loadouts and I keep my eyes on the target ship underwater even up through the explosion.

Yes, exactly! The normal AI torpedo is just a fake one and fido is a real 3d one. this is not this mod fault, but a sh3 limitation. All AI torpedos that you have in any mod, like wolfpack, ptbolts, etc, in this game are fake ones. They are in truth invisible cannons with invisible shells that give us a impression that they are real. Only the fidos are real then.

Hi Rubini,

Does your torpedo aircrafts are somehow linked to neutral Irish merchant (tramp steamer) ?

Everytime i dive on spotting torpedo aircraft I get a contact very soon of neutral merchant going by ?

[Rubini]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Hi Rubini,

Does your torpedo aircrafts are somehow linked to neutral Irish merchant (tramp steamer) ?

Everytime i dive on spotting torpedo aircraft I get a contact very soon of neutral merchant going by ?

Hi sailor_X,

Thanks by the interest on this mod!
Yes, the Torpedos aircrafts in the campaign game are linked to a random group (that is in truth only one ship - the irish neutral merchant or in later war an allied destroyer IIRC). This is necessary to make the airtorpedos bombers to appears randomically into the campaign (on the Campaign_RND.mis file). I have a later version (not released) that they are linked to wales and dolphins that are only detecable visually and then you will "not" have anything that could tell you the presence of the torpedos bombers.
To resume we have 3 things to think about on this matter:
1. To have randon torpedos bombers into the campaign is necessary to add them to random ship groups
2. these ship groups could or not be detectable by the player. (It´s also possible to make all torpedo bombers attached to new task force groups - but them the task force will force you to submerge and then you will be never attacked by torpedo bombers) !!
3. the torpedos bombers will not behave well if attached directly to air bases (sh3 limitation - no real torpedo bombers approach)

That is!
What you think about? Any suggestion?

Hi Rubini and thank you for reply.

IMO I think torpedo bombers would look more realistically if they could be linked with task forces which includes aircraft carriers, rather then flying around some inocent neutrals lol.

Basicly the scene is as follows: I spot the torpedo bomber, I dive and pick up a contact on hydrophones like: Merchant closing fast etc - 99% I'm sure it's going to be an Irish tramp steamer so I do not bother investigating it to double check anymore..

So basicly if you could attach the torpedo bombers to task forces and increase the patrol radius of a torp bomber around it, it would be great IMO. One thing that could warn player about torp bombers availabilty is GOD EYE contacts on the map of task forces, so linking torpedo bombers to whales and dolphins would as well bring more randomness and confussion to the game.

What about the unreleased version ? Are you planing to release it ?

Thank you

[Wreford-Brown]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Hi Rubini and thank you for reply.

IMO I think torpedo bombers would look more realistically if they could be linked with task forces which includes aircraft carriers, rather then flying around some inocent neutrals lol.

Basicly the scene is as follows: I spot the torpedo bomber, I dive and pick up a contact on hydrophones like: Merchant closing fast etc - 99% I'm sure it's going to be an Irish tramp steamer so I do not bother investigating it to double check anymore..

So basicly if you could attach the torpedo bombers to task forces and increase the patrol radius of a torp bomber around it, it would be great IMO. One thing that could warn player about torp bombers availabilty is GOD EYE contacts on the map of task forces, so linking torpedo bombers to whales and dolphins would as well bring more randomness and confussion to the game.

I received Rubini's permission a couple of months back to implement this in a mod I'm working on. The mod will contain 11 aircraft carriers types with Rubini's torpedo bombers forming part of their air groups. Research was a bugger because various carriers changed their air groups during the war so making it accurate was tricky. There are also 61 aircraft in the mod, so it'll be more tricky to work out whether it's an Allied or Axis aircraft (plenty of long-range Axis or neutral patrol planes).

If in doubt, always crash dive but it's been fun fighting it out on the surface during testing - I can generally take on four aircraft before I'm leaking like a sieve and have to return to base.

Originally Posted by Wreford-Brown

I received Rubini's permission a couple of months back to implement this in a mod I'm working on. The mod will contain 11 aircraft carriers types with Rubini's torpedo bombers forming part of their air groups. Research was a bugger because various carriers changed their air groups during the war so making it accurate was tricky. There are also 61 aircraft in the mod, so it'll be more tricky to work out whether it's an Allied or Axis aircraft (plenty of long-range Axis or neutral patrol planes).

If in doubt, always crash dive but it's been fun fighting it out on the surface during testing - I can generally take on four aircraft before I'm leaking like a sieve and have to return to base.

Good luck with your mod Let's not forget that Britsh admiralty withdrew all aircraft cariers in the North Atlantic after HMS Courageous disaster. So there should little or no threat to u-boats in mid atlantic from air untl 1942.

[Rubini]

@sailor_X:
Yes, i also agree that put them on task forces will be the most realistic and desirable way. But sh3 have it´s limits and when I was making the torpedo bombers mod some of these limitations becames very clear:

1. Like I said the sh3 don´t have a torpedo bomber approach in it´s engine, so to make them behave 90% time like real torpedo bombers (100% is just impossible) a serie of tricks is necessary and in the correct order. this means that just adding them to airbases or into the already existent task forces will bring one very odd effect: torpedos being dropped from very, very high altitude (totally irrealistic).

2. Sh3 have a totally irrealistic aircraft and ship detection (at least in late war) where RWR works 500% and without uncertaint. This means that you will always detect the task force kilometers away because the ships have radar (and also the standard planes). Detecting the task force early will "force" the player to always (or 99% of times) dive/crash dive too early too. The result is that you will "never" see or will "never" be attacked by torpedo bombers. So, at minimum, a workaround is needed here to we have a good, realistic and also fun mod to play.

3. This is why i put them on new groups. New groups because this way I can adjust their waypoints highs, velocities and others necessary tricks without mess with all task forces already on the RND (also this way anyone can have the torpedo bombers into the campaign for any sh3 mod soup). Obviously is possible to add them to (new) task forces (not attached to carriers planes itself), but the task forces frequency will be very high - the groups are spawed frequently but the torpedos bombers will find you just a very tiny fraction of times).

4. If we find a way to make the torpedo bombers approach behaviour works well also to airbases (carriers are exactly the same) i will be the first to becomes very happy and a more perfect campaign mod can be made.

5. What is "easy" to do is put a more variable ships as torpedo bombers group heads, dectablables or not, taks forces without radar, etc. I liked very much my approach to make groups with dolphins and wales - as these three things- wales, dolphins and even the torpedo bombers itself - are hard to find into the campaign game, so for me, this was a very good balance of things at end. I saw a bit of dolphins and wales (very realistic to say about) and the torpedo bombers attack continues to be rare (one per 2 months of sailing average) and without mess with anything more at the campaign balance.

@Wreford-Brown:
- Do you have different experience than mine about the torpedo bombers pattern approach when attaching them to carriers/airbases?
Because if so we can really have a better campaign integration of the torpedo bombers! Let me know yours finds.

[Wreford-Brown]

Rubini,

You are, of course, correct. When I tried a few single missions the torpedo bombers came in too high, but I started thinking...

Other aircraft will climb in order to attack, so if we adjust the existing aircraft carriers so all of their aircraft spawn height is the same as your torpedo bombers attached to the Irish neutral merchant then we should see torpedo bombers appearing at an accurate height and other aircraft climbing to engage.

I've got a couple days vacation so can spend some time testing if you can point me towards the right variable.

Thoughts?

[Rubini]

Originally Posted by Wreford-Brown

Rubini,

You are, of course, correct. When I tried a few single missions the torpedo bombers came in too high, but I started thinking...

Other aircraft will climb in order to attack, so if we adjust the existing aircraft carriers so all of their aircraft spawn height is the same as your torpedo bombers attached to the Irish neutral merchant then we should see torpedo bombers appearing at an accurate height and other aircraft climbing to engage.

I've got a couple days vacation so can spend some time testing if you can point me towards the right variable.

Thoughts?

Hi mate, thanks to reply!

IIRC, after a lot of tests, I can say that it´s "impossible" to have a correct torpedo bomber approach just attaching them to airbases(carriers is the same). Unless some hardcore fix comes in the way (read here hsie or stiebler). Perhaps some more deep tests yet could be made as the ones that I made was in a certain rush to finish the mod. But like i said i have few hopes that without hardfix we can have good results.

You know that bombers in sh3 have two types of approach: dive bomber and level bomber.

The dive bomber pattern will always climb to more or less 500m and them dive to the target just releasing the bomb almost over the target. This is good for rockets and bombs attacks.

The level bomber attack is made at least 500m high in a direct pass over the target. This pattern can be override with waypoints with declared high. This is the one that i used for torpedo bombers. Notice that if you leave this level bomber pattern to the engine (airbases/carriers) they will be always spawed more or less 500m high.

We just can´t forget that sh3 a lot of times proves that the "impossible" was just vanished under some clevers moders work. Who knows...

Any idea?

[Wreford-Brown]

So, I need to take your torpedo bombers out of the carrier air groups (and air bases) in order to prevent them appearing unrealistically at 500m.

If I want to add your fido torpedo bombers realistically then I should be able to add them as an extra unit to the new _SCR carrier task forces at a height of 70m and they'll accompany the carriers and have the correct profile.

It's a trade off between detection distances and realistic attacks, but if the carrier has mixed air groups then there's no reason why you couldn't be attacked by bomb carrying Swordfish at the edge of the AirGroup detection range with your torpedo Swordfish following up after the initial attacks.

I see some testing is required.

[Wreford-Brown]

Originally Posted by terryn

How are air groups called to the scene? i realize they come from airbases, but do you have to be within the range of the airbase in order for them to be called in? Or can you be in the middle of the Atlantic?

You have to be in range of the air base, but some of the air bases have large ranges and others are not placed with historic accuracy but in order to reflect, for example, the closing of the Atlantic air gap.

[LGN1]

Hi Rubini,

is the spawning from an airbase just a 'cosmetic' issue (unrealistic drop height) or does it have an impact on the functioning of the mod?

Regards, LGN1

[Rubini]

Originally Posted by LGN1

Hi Rubini,

is the spawning from an airbase just a 'cosmetic' issue (unrealistic drop height) or does it have an impact on the functioning of the mod?

Regards, LGN1

Hi mate!
Yes, IIRC, if added to airbases, the torpedo bombers from this mod will be spawed like any other plane on the game and will drop the torpedos on you anyway. But it will be with a very unrealistic way. Also I guess that the hit probability will be very tiny if droped from high altitude. I guess that needs to be test to assure that it will work as intend (hit percent).