Elder Scrolls V in the works - direct sequel to Oblivion

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Michael Kirkbride posting in-character as dragons:

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/135...ar-documented/

Elder Scrolls lore!

Okay that is actually pretty cool.

LET THE NERDERY COMMENCE!

Riiiiiiight. Because up til now it hasn't been nerdy at all.

[frau kaleun]

Okay - question stemming from one of the first set of contracts I filled for the DB. I had no problem with the first two hits, IIRC I've been back to both areas since with no repercussions. Both were done when the targets were out in the open, albeit in less than high-traffic areas.

However the third one was done within the "city limits" of a smaller hold capital (open city, not walled), since the target apparently never leaves there. I located and trailed the target, then left the city proper and circled back in my full DB gear and one-shot her with an arrow from a good distance away. Went back the way I had come. Crosshairs showed me as hidden for the *entire* exercise, in other words from the time I started back towards the target until I returned to my waiting follower, not a living creature that mattered detected my presence until I got back to where he was waiting for me. IIRC I also used Invisibility potions getting to and from the target.

However, when I tried to go back into the city, I was immediately attacked and pursued by the guards. I had to reload and waited that time until the target went inside her house and then I picked the lock and killed her inside her home. Haven't been back there since to see how that plays out.

So - I'm assuming that as far as the AI is concerned, it's enough that someone sees the victim attacked and/or killed. If so, I'm immediately IDed as the killer, even when no one saw me enter or leave the area, much less pull the metaphorical trigger. Which... um... is really stupid. They should only know that a murder was committed, not who did it unless they actually witnessed that end of the fatal equation. Which they did not, if the HUD is to be trusted at all. They witnessed someone being killed but they did not see me doing the killing, and apparently the game narcs on me anyway.

Also, I thought that even if you got a bounty for murder you could just talk to the guard and pay it off. Maybe that doesn't work right *after* the killing, because they never gave me that opportunity.

[Task Force]

Odd, as I just did the first three contracts for the DB killing all three with a bow & arrow, and everything was fine.

[Krauter]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

Okay - question stemming from one of the first set of contracts I filled for the DB. I had no problem with the first two hits, IIRC I've been back to both areas since with no repercussions. Both were done when the targets were out in the open, albeit in less than high-traffic areas.

However the third one was done within the "city limits" of a smaller hold capital (open city, not walled), since the target apparently never leaves there. I located and trailed the target, then left the city proper and circled back in my full DB gear and one-shot her with an arrow from a good distance away. Went back the way I had come. Crosshairs showed me as hidden for the *entire* exercise, in other words from the time I started back towards the target until I returned to my waiting follower, not a living creature that mattered detected my presence until I got back to where he was waiting for me. IIRC I also used Invisibility potions getting to and from the target.

However, when I tried to go back into the city, I was immediately attacked and pursued by the guards. I had to reload and waited that time until the target went inside her house and then I picked the lock and killed her inside her home. Haven't been back there since to see how that plays out.

So - I'm assuming that as far as the AI is concerned, it's enough that someone sees the victim attacked and/or killed. If so, I'm immediately IDed as the killer, even when no one saw me enter or leave the area, much less pull the metaphorical trigger. Which... um... is really stupid. They should only know that a murder was committed, not who did it unless they actually witnessed that end of the fatal equation. Which they did not, if the HUD is to be trusted at all. They witnessed someone being killed but they did not see me doing the killing, and apparently the game narcs on me anyway.

Also, I thought that even if you got a bounty for murder you could just talk to the guard and pay it off. Maybe that doesn't work right *after* the killing, because they never gave me that opportunity.

I assume you're talking about the one in Morthal? Maybe it's simply a bug. Never had that issue before.

[Drewcifer]

Does invisibility even work? I remember in past Elder Scroll games if you cast invisibility the AI wouldn't instantly start in on the "must have been nothing" routine, but in Skyrim if I cast invisibility I get ruthless beaten... the towns people if i'm walking thru still all talk and acknowledge me.

To the best of my own experience it doesn't work or only gives you a small sneak bonus.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Task Force

Odd, as I just did the first three contracts for the DB killing all three with a bow & arrow, and everything was fine.

I did them all with bow and arrow, the first two that went off (so far) without a hitch were the targets outside Ivarstead and Windhelm respectively. I have been back through the Rift and in Riften and no trouble there from the guards, pretty sure I've been in and around Windhelm as well and no problems there either.

The one I got in trouble on was the miner chick in Dawnstar. I waited and waited and waited and she simply would not go in her house or leave the city proper. Finally in the wee hours she went back to the mine and was hanging around outside the entrance. I had circled back behind the town and was hidden behind the last building in that outer row and the rocks of the ridge behind it.

I can only assume there was a guard near enough to see her take the shot, but I went all the way back behind the row of buildings just below the ridge and back to where I'd left Golldir waiting on the road out of town and was never detected the whole time. Then walked back into town to test the waters and *boom* the entire local constabulary is out for my blood.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Drewcifer

Does invisibility even work? I remember in past Elder Scroll games if you cast invisibility the AI wouldn't instantly start in on the "must have been nothing" routine, but in Skyrim if I cast invisibility I get ruthless beaten... the towns people if i'm walking thru still all talk and acknowledge me.

To the best of my own experience it doesn't work or only gives you a small sneak bonus.

I have only used potions for Invisibility, they work fine *if* you were not already detected before taking the potion. So I go to a place where I am already hidden, take the potion, and then come back out and no one can see me. If I'm in sneak mode they generally can't hear me either, altho level of Sneak skill and perks/gear probably factor into that.

However if I have already been seen, taking the potion doesn't seem to help that much since my presence was already known. It's not like I disappear and everyone goes "huh? I guess I just imagined that person standing over there, because now I don't see anyone." Again, Sneak skill/perks and gear may factor into that if you disappear but still try to move, if you can be heard then that could give it away I suppose since they already know you're there somewhere.

With casting the spell, I don't know, but unless you have silent casting as a perk (IIRC there is such a thing) maybe they know that a spell's been cast and that gives your general position away.

I can say that the graphics at least reflect Invisibility with the potions, because I've gone into third person and I'm definitely invisible altho I can see a sort of shimmer to indicate where I am, this apparently is just a way of the game allowing you to see yourself and I don't think NPCs can see it, but maybe they can if they know you were there and are looking for it.

[frau kaleun]

Anybody using this

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=6580

or something similar/better to deal with the "friendly fire" problem when you are fighting/traveling alongside more than one ally at a time?

I can't tell from the description and comments whether the mod at that URL only works for dedicated personal followers, or also applies to temporary allies like your masses of friendlies in the Civil War battles and miscellaneous temporary hangers-on that you get on some quests. I love Marcurio, and if I go Imperial I'd love to give him a chance to participate, but never can risk it when any other ally is around because he loves the Chain Lightning just a leeeeeeeetle too much.

[Krauter]

In my experience, using invisibility (the spell) lets me disappear even if I've been spotted.). I can attack someone, get noticed, cast invisibility, attack, rinse and repeat.

Also, there is silent casting, you need level 50 in Illusion to get it.

[Drewcifer]

Yes, Yes, I have a level 81 uber mage. So silent casting I have. Again in my game invisibility doesn't work.

Flat out if I cast it people still talk to me, enemies still attack and me and always know where I am no matter where I run and hide.

So I don't use stealth with mage build its best to just frenzy, let my dead thrall necromancers and their minions attack and read a book.

[Fincuan]

As far as DB jobs go I've found that ballsier works better. The first job I got was to kill the orphanage owner. I executed that by walking into her home, closing the door when just the two of us were in a room and hacking her to pieces. The kids at the orphanage were all yelling and cheering when they noticed her death, so I guess that's a job well done

No problems with guards or anyone else after leaving the house.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

As far as DB jobs go I've found that ballsier works better. The first job I got was to kill the orphanage owner. I executed that by walking into her home, closing the door when just the two of us were in a room and hacking her to pieces. The kids at the orphanage were all yelling and cheering when they noticed her death, so I guess that's a job well done

No problems with guards or anyone else after leaving the house.

That's an anomaly, killing Grelod isn't a job you get from the DB - you get it from the runaway orphan who mistakes you for one of them and won't believe you if you try to tell him you're not. Killing Grelod is, as far as the DB is concerned, stealing one of their contracts and that's what prompts them to contact you and give you the choice of joining them or paying with your own life for interfering with their business.

Once Astrid kidnaps you, you can either join them by killing one of the three captives presented to you, or fight her instead and either kill her or be killed. If you kill one of the captives, you're in the DB. If you fight Astrid and kill her, you can then get the Destroy The Dark Brotherhood quest (which is now your only option as far as the DB stuff is concerned) by reporting it to the Penitatus Oculatus commander at Dragonbridge.

In other words the "hit" on Grelod is not, for the PC, a DB contract - it's a quest that only exists to force contact between the PC and the DB and make the PC choose either to join them or destroy them (or presumably be pursued and attacked by their agents until you do wipe them out - I noticed I was being attacked by a lot of NPCs that were IDed only as "Assassin" with the last character, until I finally got around to to finishing the Destroy quest). The Grelod killing is a plot device designed to jumpstart the DB storyline and the game does not penalize you for making use of it by giving you a bounty for the killing or IDing you to local guards as the killer.

I've killed Grelod three times now, no variation on the scenario makes any difference. Apparently she never leaves the orphanage, but I've killed her "in private" in her room with the door shut, killed her out in the open (not in sneak mode) in full view of the children and the other younger lady who works there, and one-shot her with a bow from the front rooms of the orphanage after entering in sneak mode and remaining undetected throughout. Twice I entered and left the orphanage in broad daylight in full view of guards and townspeople, once I snuck in way after midnight and snuck right back out... it all works out the same. The children are overjoyed, the assistant (if she is present) runs around screaming, and after you walk out the door - nothing. People will comment on the killing, some clearly think the old lady had it coming, some may hint that you know something about it, but as far as being treated like a punishable offense - nope.

As far as I can tell it's scripted that way no matter how you handle it - the only consequence is that it puts you in touch with the DB whether you wanted it or not. As such, the Grelod killing can't be used as a benchmark for how real DB contract killings will work or be treated by guards and other NPCs.

[Task Force]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I did them all with bow and arrow, the first two that went off (so far) without a hitch were the targets outside Ivarstead and Windhelm respectively. I have been back through the Rift and in Riften and no trouble there from the guards, pretty sure I've been in and around Windhelm as well and no problems there either.

The one I got in trouble on was the miner chick in Dawnstar. I waited and waited and waited and she simply would not go in her house or leave the city proper. Finally in the wee hours she went back to the mine and was hanging around outside the entrance. I had circled back behind the town and was hidden behind the last building in that outer row and the rocks of the ridge behind it.

I can only assume there was a guard near enough to see her take the shot, but I went all the way back behind the row of buildings just below the ridge and back to where I'd left Golldir waiting on the road out of town and was never detected the whole time. Then walked back into town to test the waters and *boom* the entire local constabulary is out for my blood.

I did it by hiding behind a house at the east end of dawnstar behind a house, poping out, shot her (PEW!) and GTFO. never had the issue.

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

As far as I can tell it's scripted that way no matter how you handle it - the only consequence is that it puts you in touch with the DB whether you wanted it or not. As such, the Grelod killing can't be used as a benchmark for how real DB contract killings will work or be treated by guards and other NPCs.

Rgr that, but at least it shows up as a quest of the DB questline when completed. At least I haven't completed any other DB quests that I know of, and I haven't been contacted by them.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

Rgr that, but at least it shows up as a quest of the DB questline when completed. At least I haven't completed any other DB quests that I know of, and I haven't been contacted by them.

Have you received an anonymous note from a courier that says "We know"? Don't worry, you will. Then it's just a matter of how long you can go without taking a nap.

Anyway, point is, killing Grelod doesn't mean you're in the DB and it doesn't count as a DB hit; nor does the game handle it the same way it handles other unprovoked attacks, which will get you a bounty and/or aggro from law enforcement if there are witnesses. It's like a "free kill" with no consequences other than that it sets you up for contact with the DB, which is necessary in order to pursue that questline either with them or against them.