[REL] Realistic Sinking Physics

[chopped50ford]

can you lay this on top of the Tmaru 1.3a mod?

Cant wait to try it.

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by chopped50ford

can you lay this on top of the Tmaru 1.3a mod?

Cant wait to try it.

yes as long you install it over TM.

the only file that will be overwritten is zones.cfg. This is an essential file for this mod but not that important for triger maru.

[kv29]

Though I really like this mod, I still feel we need some ships to sink a little faster. I read a couple of stories somewhere in Submarine! from E. Beach about some ships going down incredibly fast. I presume we can´t have it both ways (slow & fast)?

[WernerSobe]

well ive seen ships sinking in seconds with this mod. And then ive seen ships taking hours. So yes sinking times vary alot. It depends where you hit them.

[nimitstexan]

With the exception of those that blow up iin a fireball (magazine hit aI presume), I have not seen anything sink in under 20 minutes. I have also seen several merchants float indefinately with decks awash. In one case, a 2/3 of a 10000 ton tanker were submerged, and it had a 15-20 degree list, but it still remained afloat for hours. Granted, emtpy tankers could be the hardest to sink, but any ship with most of its superstructure underwater is going to go down. If the watertight compartments do not burst under the extra pressure, the water is simply going to go over or around them and start flooing other parts of the ship. And in the case of most merachants of the period, the compartmentalization was not that great. According to the first hand accounts of guys like Beach or O'Kane freighters did go down in a few minutes or even a few seconds, not from exploding cargo or magazines, but simply from flooding.

I would submit that the speed of the flooding needs to be increased (if that is possible), and some more work down to ensure that ships do no remain afloat indefiantely with the deck or superstructure awash because one compartment is unflooded.

[panthercules]

Really looking forward to trying this out, now that I've decided to actually play some 1.3 rather than keep waiting for Beery to update RFB

Just one question (tried to find this in all these pages but couldn't - may be 'cause it's late and I could have looked right past it) - does the latest version of this mod include the fix to eliminate the CTDs caused by the "NKSCS_Taihosan.zon", or do we need to install the fix for that on top of this mod?

[chopped50ford]

WernerSobe

First...awesome MOd. Thanks.

I just had a chance to use your mod and I have to agree, you have to place your torps in strategic places to get a good/fast sinking. You have to think and place your shots...making manual targeting more detailed.

I came up on a convoy and I put (2) torps into 4 different cargo ships (2 large, 2 med split cargos) and neither of them went under. They kept moving with 4-6 knots each and listed and leaned forward but that is it.

I will also add that my torps hit in the same spots relative so from reading the whole post...I know why they never ate the sand below.

One Med split cargo that floated with 1/4 of her stern awash; (2) torps up the rear (from same convoy)...or rather same place; I later came up, hit her in the bow and she sank like a rock w/ an quick explosion thereafter.

A question on the deck gun, I was being chased by a destoyer, I nailed her hull probably about 10 times or more and saw no effect...should there have been or is the armor that thick that it had little to NO effect at all, no holes were made.

Also, in places where (2) torps hit the cargo ships in the same spots...no holes appeared, even on the one that sat 1/4 underwater...the screws kept turning as well while she got 2 knots and kept underway. Is this normal?

also, is the download on the first page of this thread the most current?

Thanks again.

[WernerSobe]

when there is no visual damage then the torpedoe did not penetrate the armor. You have just been unlucky because armor penetration seem to be random from none to a certain value.

Destroyers will also sink from being attacked by the deckgun. But that will take a while, they will rather kill you first with their deckguns.

[Redwine]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

when there is no visual damage then the torpedoe did not penetrate the armor. You have just been unlucky because armor penetration seem to be random from none to a certain value.

At bottom of the Zones.cfg file... you have Penetration Threshold, it is the amount of the explosion bubble radius wich must to penetrate inside the ship's hull to cause damage.

;************************************************* ******
[Global Params]
Penetration Threshold=0.2
Armor Level Factor=4
;************************************************* ******

In example, default is 0.2, if you have adjusted a radius of 5m into a torps, it must to explode nearest than 4m to penetrate the hull and make the hole.

If you adjust 0.5 intead 0.2, then a 5m radois torp must to explode nearest than 2.5m to penetrate the hull...

I am using 0.4, almost right now... it solved the dying/sinking DDs bug when ramming my scope.

This value has a lot of influence over the amount of torps needed and the quantity and size of the holes.

Hope this can help...

[adseal]

Hello!

First at all: Great Mod WernerSobe!!! One of my favourites...

Have question: today Ducimus relesed his TMaru ver.1.4. Could You give us any info (check the Zones.cfg) that Your mod is still compatibile with existing NSM version 2.6?

Thans in advance

Regards!
Ad

[chopped50ford]

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

when there is no visual damage then the torpedoe did not penetrate the armor. You have just been unlucky because armor penetration seem to be random from none to a certain value.

Destroyers will also sink from being attacked by the deckgun. But that will take a while, they will rather kill you first with their deckguns.

@WernerSobe

I see what your saying, but the ships that did not show any visible damage at all, and were listing considerably...some at most 25 - 30 degrees fwd or aft from centerline...including the one I hit in the rear w/ 1/4 of the stern awash. Nothing was visible. When I sit idle, I like to go underwater w/ the camera to see the damage, and none had appeared.

Any other thoghts to this?

What program are people using to look at the zone.cfg files and such for minor tweaking?

Thanks again for a great mod, I cant wait to get back on the boat to fight again.

[Canonicus]

"What program are people using to look at the zone.cfg files and such for minor tweaking?"


It can be opened using Windows Notepad.

Cheers!

[WernerSobe]

Originally Posted by chopped50ford

@WernerSobe

I see what your saying, but the ships that did not show any visible damage at all, and were listing considerably...some at most 25 - 30 degrees fwd or aft from centerline...including the one I hit in the rear w/ 1/4 of the stern awash. Nothing was visible. When I sit idle, I like to go underwater w/ the camera to see the damage, and none had appeared.

Any other thoghts to this?

What program are people using to look at the zone.cfg files and such for minor tweaking?

Thanks again for a great mod, I cant wait to get back on the boat to fight again.

That comes with stock sh4. I havent changed hull armor or armor pearcing of the torpedoes.

[Fearless]

I have no problems with visual damage models. But then I have maxed out the visual damage in the options settings.

[nimitstexan]

I have the same thing (holes not showing up) with damage levels on max. I believe the "bug" is there whether you use the mod or not.

Just some more thoughts for WernerSobe (similar to what I posted in the RFB thread), and mostly in reference to the merchant ships (the big warships seem to about right. . .) :

I certainly like the idea of flooding being the primary means of sinking a ship; that is exacrly how it should be. However, I think GWX hit it on the head when they designed it so at least some of the smaller ships could still subcumb to hitpoint damage if hit with enough torpedoes. In the real war, single torpedo hits often crippled a cruiser or light carrier, and a torpedo could blow the bow or stern off of a destroyer or break a small merchant in half. While there are always exceptions, a DD or small merchant would be fortunate to stay afloat after a single torpedo, and two torpedoes generally than not doomed anything smaller than a cruiser or large troopship or tanker. From my limited reading (and based on the more careful research of other's posted in this forum and elsewhere), most smaller and medium sized ships seemed to go down very quickly, often under 10 minutes, and certainly under 20 minutes. Again, there were exceptions, but cargo ships had poor structural integrity and minimal damage control ability. With the mod, I have been seeing ships under 5000 tons hit with 2-3 torpedo consistently take 20-40 minutes to sink (if they sink at all) and have yet to see a ship (sans the ammunition ships that explode) sink in under 10 minutes, which is indicating that ships are staying afloat too long.

And while it is good warship crews are staying with their ship, historically merchant crews would often abandon a heavily damaged or mortally wounded ship quickly rather than try and save the ship up until the last minute. They did not have the necessary training or manpower to fight and repair severe damage and quite frankly, whether for good reasons or not, many civilian crews panicked when faced with submarine attack, nor were their ships built strongly enough to withstand a torpedo attack. Cargo ships were built to maximize hold space, and the compartmentalization necessary to survive a torpedo hit or two costs both space and money any peacetime (and even most wartime) civilian ship operators found extravegand. If nothing else, the shock from an exploding torpedo could shake open enough seams to cause serious or even mortal flooding quite apart from the direct damage from the torpedo impact (more than one light cruiser, light carrier, or destroyer suffered severe flooding, and in a few cases sank outright, solely from the effects of near misses by bombs or torpedoes exploding nearby, without ever taking a direct hit, and those were much more strongly designed than the average merchantman). Even on a major warship with a crew well trained in damage control (something of rarity in the IJN) by the time the decks or superstructure is awash, the crew is going to be abonding ship; certainly the crew of any cargo or tanker vessel is going to be long gone by the time water starts lapping at its bridge.

I guess I would first suggest that the hitpoints be reevaluated down from 20000 point standard (maybe suggesting GWX as a starting point if nothing else comes to mind) so that there is at least the chance sinking ships through a loss of structural integrity with enough hits or of literally blowing apart some of the smaller ships apart from hits to magazines or ammo stores. Secondly I would recommend tweaking the other parameters as necessary so that ships sink a little faster (I would honestly suggest, if possible, halving the times listed in the readme to about 5-10 minutes for the small merchants, 15-20 minutes for the mediums, and something less than the several hours it takes for the big ones), and crews are almost always willing to abandon ship when the decks are awash if not sooner.

Do not misunderstand me. I believe NSM is better than the default "sink or 30 seconds or not at all." But is I understand it your goal is to make tihngs more historical, and these are my humble suggestions towards that end.