Thermal Layer

captainprid · 03-20-10, 10:06 AM

In SHIV the boat passed through a thermal layer along with salination levels this distorted the position of the boat. Was this information available to the Germans during the war as it would appear it was to the Yanks??? If it was, is it possible to mod this into the game??

SteamWake · 03-20-10, 10:15 AM

They knew about it however there were no reliable instruments in that era that would magically tell you when you were passing through it.

The call of 'passing thermal layer' is strictly hollywood I'm afraid.

jhelix70 · 03-20-10, 07:33 PM

The Americans had an instrument that did this by measuring the water temp outside the hull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathythermograph

It was included in SH1, but I forget if it was in SH4 or not. No word in the article if German subs had a similar instrument, but I doubt it.

Onkel Neal · 03-20-10, 07:48 PM

In SH4 it was represented by the sound file "Passing thermal layer", I believe.

In one of my SH5 videos, the beta still had that sound file in the game. Since U-boats were unable to know when and if they were passing a TL, I removed the sound file before making the video. Thankfully, the dev team also removed it before the game was released.

Cavell · 03-21-10, 01:28 AM

Are you sure they didn't remove thermal layers entirely? They hardly sound arcadey.

wamphyri · 03-21-10, 05:49 AM

thermal layers are in the game. I just don't think there's any way to know if you pass though one.

reaper7 · 03-21-10, 06:48 AM

I remember reading somewhere, that there included. Its just that in the altantic there to deep to make use of. There below 200 meteres

Don't know what the case is for the pacific waters.
if you look at this mod sensors are effected by the thermal layer.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165675

Coldcall · 03-21-10, 06:57 AM

well if they are modelled in SH5 then there must be some sort of parametres in the code somehwhere. I dont understand how Thermal layers can be programmed in the game but cannot be defined.

LeNe · 03-21-10, 08:54 AM

In one of my last games I had at least the feeling of passing a thermal layer. Because I'm relatively new to subsims I kept the map informations on to get a feeling of distances, enemy behavior and such. So I was on the run. The destroyer came closer and closer and I tryed to get deeper and when I was diving at about 135 meters the sonar markings of the destroyers on the map became very small. I was just wonderig if that has been the effects of thermal layer or if I overlooked something in game mechanics such as deeps range of the sonar. I also forgot to try out if theres any difference with my own sonar. 135 meters isn't very deep :/
so I don't know if it's physically possible of having a thermal layer there. The ony thing I know is that there's beside other thermal layers a so called convergence zone at 3000 feet (about 900 meters) where the temperture is steady below, but since you are not able to go so deep during WWII we can just neglect that.

SteamWake · 03-21-10, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeNe

In one of my last games I had at least the feeling of passing a thermal layer. Because I'm relatively new to subsims I kept the map informations on to get a feeling of distances, enemy behavior and such. So I was on the run. The destroyer came closer and closer and I tryed to get deeper and when I was diving at about 135 meters the sonar markings of the destroyers on the map became very small. I was just wonderig if that has been the effects of thermal layer or if I overlooked something in game mechanics such as deeps range of the sonar. I also forgot to try out if theres any difference with my own sonar. 135 meters isn't very deep :/
so I don't know if it's physically possible of having a thermal layer there. The ony thing I know is that there's beside other thermal layers a so called convergence zone at 3000 feet (about 900 meters) where the temperture is steady below, but since you are not able to go so deep during WWII we can just neglect that.

It could be possible or it could be as simple as the sonar contact slowing down creating less noise.

In sh4 the dd's would do a little trick of one driving around near flank banging away with the asdic while the other sits motionless and listens. Neat trick that was

LeNe · 03-21-10, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by SteamWake

It could be possible or it could be as simple as the sonar contact slowing down creating less noise.

Oh yes that's probably the explantation. Well I'm still a bloody newbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by SteamWake

In sh4 the dd's would do a little trick of one driving around near flank banging away with the asdic while the other sits motionless and listens. Neat trick that was

hehe nice. I never would have guessed that they are using tactics together. I always thought they'll all try to rush to your location like hungry hyenas trying to get a piece of the easy prey. hm apperently I must be more careful on further cruises

SteamWake · 03-21-10, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeNe

Oh yes that's probably the explantation. Well I'm still a bloody newbe

hehe nice. I never would have guessed that they are using tactics together. I always thought they'll all try to rush to your location like hungry hyenas trying to get a piece of the easy prey. hm apperently I must be more careful on further cruises

I said it 'might' be an explination your assumption may be very well correct but requires a little testing to confirm.

I only saw the tag team tactic in SH4 I have yet to see in in SH5 unfortunatly.

03-21-10, 10:11 AM

Thermal layering (or salinity) is dealt with in the U.Kdt.Hdb. (U-boat Commanders Handbook) that were written by a collection of U-boot commanders during the first year of WWII.

Its located under item 57)

citation:

Quote:

As regards the conditions of ASDIC in relation to the trasmitting capacity of the water, it has been ascertained that the efficiancy of the submarine-detecting gear is considerably reduced in sea areas with numerous layers of water.

examples are mentioned as:

Quote:

North Sea, in the Skagerrak and Kattegat, Straits of Gibraltar, Gulf Stream, near mouth of rivers (ref. Atlas of water Densities of the oceans).

Further citation:

Quote:

Continual observation and measuring of water densities and temperatures are therefore important and indispensable for establishing the presence of "stratification" when submerging to considerable depth as a means of evading pursuit by position finding.

In addition, position finding is very difficult, and almost impossible, in shallow water of varying depths (sand banks), where there are many wrecks, as well as in narrow bays (Norwegian fjords), as it is usually not an echo that is produced, but numerous echoes, which make it difficult to keep, but more especially to locate, the target.

Gilbou · 03-21-10, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhelix70

The Americans had an instrument that did this by measuring the water temp outside the hull.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathythermograph

It was included in SH1, but I forget if it was in SH4 or not. No word in the article if German subs had a similar instrument, but I doubt it.

It is in SH4. It is listed in the equipement for all subs, can be damaged, and is used to detect thermal layers.

Ducimus · 03-21-10, 11:52 AM

-Thermal layers exist in the game. At least in the files that control AI detection.

- The effect Thermal layers can be turned off.

- The germans knew thermal layers existed, but had no way of detecting them.

- Thermal layers were too deep and unreachable in the atlantic, so the topic is kinda moot where the battle of the atlantic is concerned.

03-20-10, 10:06 AM	#1
captainprid Watch Officer Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Blackpool, England Posts: 347 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Thermal Layer In SHIV the boat passed through a thermal layer along with salination levels this distorted the position of the boat. Was this information available to the Germans during the war as it would appear it was to the Yanks??? If it was, is it possible to mod this into the game??

03-20-10, 10:15 AM	#2
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	They knew about it however there were no reliable instruments in that era that would magically tell you when you were passing through it. The call of 'passing thermal layer' is strictly hollywood I'm afraid. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

03-20-10, 07:48 PM	#4
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,289 Downloads: 534 Uploads: 224	In SH4 it was represented by the sound file "Passing thermal layer", I believe. In one of my SH5 videos, the beta still had that sound file in the game. Since U-boats were unable to know when and if they were passing a TL, I removed the sound file before making the video. Thankfully, the dev team also removed it before the game was released. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

03-20-10, 07:33 PM	#3
jhelix70 Sparky Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 152 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	The Americans had an instrument that did this by measuring the water temp outside the hull. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathythermograph It was included in SH1, but I forget if it was in SH4 or not. No word in the article if German subs had a similar instrument, but I doubt it.

03-21-10, 01:28 AM	#5
Cavell Sailor man Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 43 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Are you sure they didn't remove thermal layers entirely? They hardly sound arcadey.

03-21-10, 05:49 AM	#6
wamphyri Lieutenant Join Date: May 2004 Location: Lethbridge, Alberta Posts: 260 Downloads: 40 Uploads: 0	thermal layers are in the game. I just don't think there's any way to know if you pass though one.

03-21-10, 06:48 AM	#7
reaper7 sim2reality Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: AM 82 Posts: 2,280 Downloads: 258 Uploads: 30	I remember reading somewhere, that there included. Its just that in the altantic there to deep to make use of. There below 200 meteres Don't know what the case is for the pacific waters. if you look at this mod sensors are effected by the thermal layer. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=165675

03-21-10, 06:57 AM	#8
Coldcall Chief Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 325 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	well if they are modelled in SH5 then there must be some sort of parametres in the code somehwhere. I dont understand how Thermal layers can be programmed in the game but cannot be defined.

03-21-10, 08:54 AM	#9
LeNe Nub Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Germany Posts: 4 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	In one of my last games I had at least the feeling of passing a thermal layer. Because I'm relatively new to subsims I kept the map informations on to get a feeling of distances, enemy behavior and such. So I was on the run. The destroyer came closer and closer and I tryed to get deeper and when I was diving at about 135 meters the sonar markings of the destroyers on the map became very small. I was just wonderig if that has been the effects of thermal layer or if I overlooked something in game mechanics such as deeps range of the sonar. I also forgot to try out if theres any difference with my own sonar. 135 meters isn't very deep :/ so I don't know if it's physically possible of having a thermal layer there. The ony thing I know is that there's beside other thermal layers a so called convergence zone at 3000 feet (about 900 meters) where the temperture is steady below, but since you are not able to go so deep during WWII we can just neglect that.

03-21-10, 11:52 AM	#15
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	-Thermal layers exist in the game. At least in the files that control AI detection. - The effect Thermal layers can be turned off. - The germans knew thermal layers existed, but had no way of detecting them. - Thermal layers were too deep and unreachable in the atlantic, so the topic is kinda moot where the battle of the atlantic is concerned.