[WIP] Historical Guns Specs

[keysersoze]

Thanks for the citations Skwiot also indicates that the re-siting of the 20cm occurred in early 1940:

The first alterations were made in early 1940 aboard Type VIIC U-boats. The rear part of the bridge was widened and a 2 cm MG C/30 installed there, but this soon proved inadequate (p. 368).

I think we can safely discard Stern's statement.

As for the MG151, it's not really imperative that we model it, as I have only ever found reference to its installation aboard U553, and then only for trials. Skwiot also mentions that there was some experimentation as early as 1936 with a twin C/30 mount for destroyers, but that these tests were unsatisfactory and were discontinued. Maybe BdU thought of reviving a Dopp. C/30 mount in June 1942, but then gave up on the idea when the C/38s became available.

All of our sources seem to be in relative harmony about the dates and composition of the turm upgrades, so I don't think it will be too difficult to set renown cost and availability for them. But on the same subject, do you know how the game handles replacing the tower in relation to replacing the flak guns? It seems that upgrading the tower and the flak guns happened simultaneously. For example, upgrading to Turm II should not just change the tower arrangement, but it should also add a second C/38 mount on the wintergarden. Will the game automatically add a second gun, or will we need to purchase it with renown? I don't think a boat would have been upgraded to Turm II unless a second C/38 was available and ready to be installed.

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

Another piece of the puzzle: according to Möller and Brack (The encyclopedia of U-Boats, p. 69), Type VIIA's armament included:



so it seems that even VIIA boats had their conning tower upgraded, but indeed by the reported date, no one of them was a front boat anymore.

Yes, Blair notes that the Type VIIA boats were hampered by poor range (they lack the saddle tanks of the later Type VIIs) and problems with their diesels. Of the ten Type VIIs built, I think only about three or four of them survived to 1940, and these quickly became training boats in the Baltic.

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Thanks for the citations Skwiot also indicates that the re-siting of the 20cm occurred in early 1940:

I think we can safely discard Stern's statement.

I agree

Originally Posted by keysersoze

As for the MG151, it's not really imperative that we model it, as I have only ever found reference to its installation aboard U553, and then only for trials. Skwiot also mentions that there was some experimentation as early as 1936 with a twin C/30 mount for destroyers, but that these tests were unsatisfactory and were discontinued. Maybe BdU thought of reviving a Dopp. C/30 mount in June 1942, but then gave up on the idea when the C/38s became available.

I also agree. In any case, since the MG151 is currently not modelled in game, reasoning on it is a bit premature, though I don't exclude the addition of new guns when we will discover how GR2 animations do work. Whe are relying on TDW and our talented 3D modellers on it.

Originally Posted by keysersoze

All of our sources seem to be in relative harmony about the dates and composition of the turm upgrades, so I don't think it will be too difficult to set renown cost and availability for them. But on the same subject, do you know how the game handles replacing the tower in relation to replacing the flak guns? It seems that upgrading the tower and the flak guns happened simultaneously. For example, upgrading to Turm II should not just change the tower arrangement, but it should also add a second C/38 mount on the wintergarden. Will the game automatically add a second gun, or will we need to purchase it with renown? I don't think a boat would have been upgraded to Turm II unless a second C/38 was available and ready to be installed.

Good question. I haven't gone that far in the game. I think turm upgrades are selectable as other upgrades from the upgrades selection interface. Nonetheless, they are not listed among other upgrades in UpgradePacks.upc. Any ideas?

Even so, the available conning towers are visible in the Submarine Parts folder of each playable U-boat type: type VIIA got only one of them, VIIB got three, two for VIIC and again two for the VIIC/41. Subtracting the standard towers which each U-boat is issued with, it means respectively 0, 2, 1 and 1 upgrades. Each configuration got a number of "slots". I didn't look in depth into the way these slots are set yet, but I think each of them can accept only some guns. UnitParts*.upc files might play a role in assigning the standard gun mounted on each slot of each conning tower, and in setting the ones which can be accepted as upgrades.

I am currently dealing with other stuff, but investigating the aforementioned settings before dealing with dates and renown costs might be opportune, if you get time for it.

[gap]

Little request: can someone send me an unmodded copy of UpgradePacks.upc, found in data\UPCDataGE\UPCUnitsData?

Seems that I have overwritted it with by mistake...

[volodya61]

Originally Posted by gap

Little request: can someone send me an unmodded copy of UpgradePacks.upc, found in data\UPCDataGE\UPCUnitsData?

Seems that I have overwritted it with by mistake...

whatever you want - http://rghost.ru/44669804

[gap]

Originally Posted by volodya61

whatever you want - http://rghost.ru/44669804

Thank you mate

[gap]

more discrepancies LOL

uboatarchive lists some typical specifications pertaining to U-boat armaments. Practical rates of fire reported for deck guns and 2 cm FlaKs are in line with our settings, but not the ones relative to 3.7cm guns:

SK C/30U: 12 rpm (slower than the 10.5cm deck gun!) vs. 30-40 rpm reported by other sources;
M42 U: 40 rpm vs. 150

Moreover, it is specified an M42 clip size of 8 rounds which, even considering the trick of loading one or two loose shells in advance, doesn't add up with the 5 rounds reported by most other sources

Changing of argument, the U Bootskunde für U Boote Bauart VII C reports in the ammunition section (p. 56):

Total amount of ammunition that can be carried:
8.8 cm munitions: 205 rounds HE shell C/35
MG C/30 munitions: 1500 rounds

I had previously set 220 rounds for the 8.8 cm gun, and 1,100 rounds per muzzle for 2cm FlaK's; I will revise our settings accordingly. However it is to note that the above document is relative the early armament layout, with a single 20mm C/30-C/38 FlaK gun. Other sources report a maximum total loadout of 4,380 2cm rounds per boat. It means a proportionally reduced outfit for later 2cm FlaK models due to the use of multiple mountings/guns on the same boat.

[gap]

first trials with menu editor successful



I tried to keep the screen as clean as possible, grouping most of the FlaK camera items toward the right edge of the screen (notice the scaled down ammo loading progress bar).

Round selection icons represent the Long Solothurn cartridges, really used by C/30 and C/39 FlaK's:



The remaining guns will get as well their own ammo selection icons, representing as closely as possible their real counterparts. Moreover, tooltips for each round were customized, so to have different designations for each caliber; I used the British/American designation followed, for immersion, by the German one:



On a slightly unrelated note, I have tried playing with 'AmmunitionIntervalOptions' and 'AmmunitionIntervalOptionCurrent' settings (Ammunition.upc), for having different ammo outfits at different stages of the war (see below):

[Ammunition 1]
ID= 20mmAPGer
NameDisplayable= 2cm APHE-T ammo
Type= AmmoShell
Subtype=20mmAPUS
AmmunitionIntervalOptionCurrent= 1943-06-16, NULL, 0
AmmunitionIntervalOptions1= 1943-06-16, NULL, 0
Volume= 1
PackSize=40

[Ammunition 2]
ID= 20mmHEGer
NameDisplayable= 2cm HEI ammo
Type= AmmoShell
Subtype=20mmAPUS
AmmunitionIntervalOptionCurrent= 1943-06-16, NULL, 0
AmmunitionIntervalOptions1= 1943-06-16, NULL, 0
Volume= 1
PackSize=40

[Ammunition 3]
ID= 20mmAAGer
NameDisplayable= 2cm HEI-T ammo
Type= AmmoShell
Subtype=20mmAPUS
AmmunitionIntervalOptionCurrent= NULL, 1943-06-16, 0
AmmunitionIntervalOptions1= NULL, 1943-06-16, 0
Volume= 1
PackSize=40

Unfortunately, it didn't work: all the round types assigned to each gun in its sim file are loaded onboard, both in campaign and in single mission, no matter the availability dates I had set. I wonder if the Ammunition setting are applied at all, when it comes to shell ammo

EDIT:

I have just accomplished another test: I have created some new shell definitions in a custom dat file (I have called it 'Shells_1.dat'), and assigned the new shells to the C/30 FlaK and... guess what? I was able to fire the new shells in game flawlessy. It means that we can have as many shell dat files as we want, as far as they are located in te correct folder. Good finding for compatibility with other mods affecting the stock file.

I am going to do the same test with Baza_FX and particles.dat now

[Trevally.]

Good work there Gap

[gap]

Originally Posted by Trevally.

Good work there Gap

Thank you Trevally

Originally Posted by gap

...we can have as many shell dat files as we want, as far as they are located in te correct folder. Good finding for compatibility with other mods affecting the stock file.

I am going to do the same test with Baza_FX and particles.dat now

It works!
I have created a custom dat file, where I have placed a trace particle generator with tweaked color settings; I then assigned the new tracer effect to one of the new shell definitions. This is the result:



Now I want to try making tracers trails longer and adding some white smoke to them. Any suggestion on how they would have actually looked, guys?

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

more discrepancies LOL

uboatarchive lists some typical specifications pertaining to U-boat armaments. Practical rates of fire reported for deck guns and 2 cm FlaKs are in line with our settings, but not the ones relative to 3.7cm guns:

SK C/30U: 12 rpm (slower than the 10.5cm deck gun!) vs. 30-40 rpm reported by other sources;
M42 U: 40 rpm vs. 150

Moreover, it is specified an M42 clip size of 8 rounds which, even considering the trick of loading one or two loose shells in advance, doesn't add up with the 5 rounds reported by most other sources

I'm not sure what to make of the numbers reported for the SK C/30U and M42. John Campbell (Naval Weapons of World War II) also reports 30 rpm for the C/30U and 160-180 rpm for the M42, though he does set the magazine size of the M42 at six instead of five rounds. I think we can probably discount the magazine size given in the uboatarchive.net source. Although I have trouble believing the SK C/30U could fire slower than the deck gun, I will admit that 30-40 rpm seems very fast for a manually loaded gun.

Originally Posted by gap

first trials with menu editor successful



I tried to keep the screen as clean as possible, grouping most of the FlaK camera items toward the right edge of the screen (notice the scaled down ammo loading progress bar).
...

Looks beautiful gap. Great work!

Originally Posted by gap

I have just accomplished another test: I have created some new shell definitions in a custom dat file (I have called it 'Shells_1.dat'), and assigned the new shells to the C/30 FlaK and... guess what? I was able to fire the new shells in game flawlessy. It means that we can have as many shell dat files as we want, as far as they are located in te correct folder. Good finding for compatibility with other mods affecting the stock file.

I am going to do the same test with Baza_FX and particles.dat now

Is there any chance of simulating the Minengeschoss 20mm by adding a new shell type for June 1943? I suppose we would still run into the problem of not being able to control ammunition loadout by date

Originally Posted by gap

It works!
I have created a custom dat file, where I have placed a trace particle generator with tweaked color settings; I then assigned the new tracer effect to one of the new shell definitions. This is the result:



Now I want to try making tracers trails longer and adding some white smoke to them. Any suggestion on how they would have actually looked, guys?

Very cool. I don't know much about tracer appearance, but you might be interested in this link as a reference for tracer color and the frequency with which tracers were loaded:

http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/...ourtizsen.html

One suggestion, which might be impossible given pixel limitations, would be to make the tracers "thinner." They always seemed a little bit too thick to me. At around 0:50 of this video, you can see an example of Flakvierlings firing at night. The tracer pattern seems a bit sleeker than what we have in stock SH5:

[gap]

Thank you for your feed-back keysersoze

Originally Posted by keysersoze

I'm not sure what to make of the numbers reported for the SK C/30U and M42. John Campbell (Naval Weapons of World War II) also reports 30 rpm for the C/30U and 160-180 rpm for the M42, though he does set the magazine size of the M42 at six instead of five rounds. I think we can probably discount the magazine size given in the uboatarchive.net source. Although I have trouble believing the SK C/30U could fire slower than the deck gun, I will admit that 30-40 rpm seems very fast for a manually loaded gun.

Okay, I will keep M42's magazine size unchanged and, as for for M42 and SK C/30 practical RoF's, I will try devising some compromise settings. I would happily discard uboatarchive.net's data at all but I suspect that, applying directly to Uboats, their information is lesser generic than the average figures provided by other sources.

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Is there any chance of simulating the Minengeschoss 20mm by adding a new shell type for June 1943? I suppose we would still run into the problem of not being able to control ammunition loadout by date

yes, I have currently set 3 types of 2cm shells: HEI-T, HEI (the famous Minengeschoss) and APHE-T. My original plan was making HEI / APHE-T (1:1 proportion) to replace HEI-T ammunition after mid June '43. Unfortunately all my tests with gun ammo availability dates failed miserably; however, we can differentiate ammo loadouts for each gun and, as a compromise, we can give later guns late ammo outfit. This is not the best option indeed, but still better than nothing.

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Very cool. I don't know much about tracer appearance, but you might be interested in this link as a reference for tracer color and the frequency with which tracers were loaded:

http://www.missing-lynx.com/library/...ourtizsen.html

Cool web page, thanks. As you can see from 20mm ammo selection icons, I had actually planned to use red tracers for APHE-T ammo, and green ones for HEI-T, but maybe I should switch colors, as red tracers were reportedly the most common type, and HEI-T ammunition is going to be the only one used by 2cm Flaks for the longer part of the campaign. As for Minengeschoss, ideed I won't give tracer to it.

Originally Posted by keysersoze

One suggestion, which might be impossible given pixel limitations, would be to make the tracers "thinner." They always seemed a little bit to thick to me. At around 0:50 of this video, you can see an example of Flakvierlings firing at night. The tracer pattern seems a bit sleeker than what we have in stock SH5:

Good video. I like especially the smoking muzzles, I didn't think that small caliber guns could have produced that mutch smoke lol. I will make 2cm tracer's trails much longer and narrower, and I will try mimicing that smoke.

By the way, here's another good video (original color footage!), showing U-boat's armamaments in action: torpedoes, deck gun, and what I think is a single Flak C/30. Just skip to 2:16

[keysersoze]

Originally Posted by gap

I would happily discard uboatarchive.net's data at all but I suspect that, applying directly to Uboats, their information is lesser generic than the average figures provided by other sources.

You are probably right that their data can be applied much more specifically to u-boats than information found in most of our other sources. I wish there were sources listed for their figures.

Originally Posted by gap

yes, I have currently set 3 types of 2cm shells: HEI-T, HEI (the famous Minengeschoss) and APHE-T. My original plan was making HEI / APHE-T (1:1 proportion) to replace HEI-T ammunition after mid June '43. Unfortunately all my tests with gun ammo availability dates failed miserably; however, we can differentiate ammo loadouts for each gun and, as a compromise, we can give later guns late ammo outfit. This is not the best option indeed, but still better than nothing.

While not a perfect solution, I think this is quite acceptable. AA armament changed very little for the first three years of the war, but then evolved rapidly in 1943, just when many of the new shells were also entering operational service.

Originally Posted by gap

Good video. I like especially the smoking muzzles, I didn't think that small caliber guns could have produced that mutch smoke lol. I will make 2cm tracer's trails much longer and narrower, and I will try mimicing that smoke.

Originally Posted by gap

By the way, here's another good video (original color footage!), showing U-boat's armamaments in action: torpedoes, deck gun, and what I think is a single Flak C/30. Just skip to 2:16

Wow, thanks for that video. I am tempted to say it was "cool," but that's not quite the right word for it. "Intense" is maybe better. There must be lots of great U-boat footage hidden away in archives around the world. It would be really interesting to know which boats were depicted in those film clips and whether they were shot spontaneously or for propaganda purposes.

[THE_MASK]

What about getting rid of tracers altogether like i did with my latest gun mod . Reasons for this were . Increase the suspense by a massive amount during game play by the player not knowing which ship is firing at you unless you can see the muzzle flash . The player is more likely to not attack a convoy surfaced unless early in the war , which is more realistic i think . Its harder to use the deck gun yourself which is more realistic , thats the crews job . No gun tracers combined with the smoke screen mod bring the suspense to a whole new level (no external cameras) .

[gap]

Originally Posted by keysersoze

You are probably right that their data can be applied much more specifically to u-boats than information found in most of our other sources. I wish there were sources listed for their figures.

So do I.

In general, information reported by uboatarchive is directly derived from first hand sources; they even publish their sources, when possible.

The best first hand documents I was able to access from their website so far, are the Cumulative Edition - CB 04051(103) of British Interrogation Reports and, even better, the U-boat Information for U-boat Type VII C, directly issued by Kriegsmarine. They are respectively dated June '44 and July '40, which is also good, because they account for both early and late war specifications, thus complementing each other.

Unfortunately, the German U-boat manual doesn't make reference to any rate of fire, but it provides precious information on early ammo outfits (p. 56):

Ammunition.
Total amount of ammunition that can be carried:
8.8 cm munitions: 205 rounds HE shell C/35
MG C/30 munitions: 1500 rounds
Of these in munitions magazine in officers room between Frames 50 ½ – 53:
177 rounds 8,8 cm HE shell C/35
1200 rounds MG C/30

Ready-use ammunition for the S.K. C/35 is stored in pressure-proof canisters [one shell to a canister placed in a rack] in the upper deck just aft of and outside the operating circle to both sides of the conning tower:

28 rounds 8.8 cm HE shell C/35
3 ammo clips with 20 rounds each are stored in the conning tower.
The munitions magazine in officers room is connected to the flooding and drainage installation.

As for the British document, it is more explicit. On 42M, it states a rate of fire of 40-50 rpm in a table at p. 16, and it further details the above figure in another table at p. 18, by stating: "40 approx. (semiautomatic) 60 (fully automatic)". This is in partial accordance with the practical RoF of 40 rpm, stated elsewhere in the same website.

Moreover, in the table at p. 18, under the 'Ready use rounds carried' column, it is said "21 containers on deck each holding 25 clips of 5" and, in a note the first table:

(a) This 37 mm. is fully automatic; the 37 mm. which was fitted to some U-Boats earlier in the war was breech loading and had a much slower rate of fire. The new 37 mm. has since late 1943 been replacing the quadruple 20 mm. as a standard fitting (fact) but there are indications that it may itself now be removed because of frequent jamming under marine conditions. (B2)
(b) Ammunition is in clips of five.

This should dispel any doubt about the size of M42's magazines

Summing up, in our settings I would reduce M42's practical RoF to 60 rpm (maximum) by altering reload times, and I would keep the 5-round clip size. As for the SK C/30, I am tempted to use the same RoF as the 88mm deck gun: 18-20 rpm.

Lastly, please note that nowhere it is said that the new 40-round magazines entered service in Ubootwaffe. 20 rounds is the figure stated by most sources relative to U-boat armaments; I start wondering if we shoudn't revise our settings accordigly though it would suck indeed

Originally Posted by keysersoze

While not a perfect solution, I think this is quite acceptable. AA armament changed very little for the first three years of the war, but then evolved rapidly in 1943, just when many of the new shells were also entering operational service.

Unfortunately, this is the only option left, unless TDW can devise a patch for making the game to use ammo shells availability settings.

Originally Posted by keysersoze

Wow, thanks for that video. I am tempted to say it was "cool," but that's not quite the right word for it. "Intense" is maybe better.

Yes, "intense" is probably a more appropriated definition.

Sad as they are, let's share this sort of visual documents, whenever we can. Talking about it, this is another video I had previously shared in another thread:



Despite the silly background music, quite making it to resemble an ILS-2 video capture (I usually don't disdain trance music, but in other contexts), it is actual wwii footage showing some P-47 Thunderbolt as they are shooting their tracer ammo on enemy targets

Originally Posted by keysersoze

There must be lots of great U-boat footage hidden away in archives around the world. It would be really interesting to know which boats were depicted in those film clips and whether they were shot spontaneously or for propaganda purposes.

I bend toward the propaganda. Right then, film recording cameras had to be a rare item, and I doubt that a "free lance" documentarist could have got so close to Nazi weaponry

Originally Posted by sober

What about getting rid of tracers altogether like i did with my latest gun mod . Reasons for this were . Increase the suspense by a massive amount during game play by the player not knowing which ship is firing at you unless you can see the muzzle flash . The player is more likely to not attack a convoy surfaced unless early in the war , which is more realistic i think . Its harder to use the deck gun yourself which is more realistic , thats the crews job . No gun tracers combined with the smoke screen mod bring the suspense to a whole new level (no external cameras) .

I see your point sober.

This mod will feature tracer ammunition in limited stocks. Where possible, the tracer/no tracer proportion will reflect historical usage.
Currently I am more concerned about giving tracers a lesser gamey look, but I don't exclude the development of an optional patch removing tracers at all, as per your suggestion