Strike on North Korea

[Skybird]

The only way it makes sense is to see it like this: that Trump wants to leave the region all to China and wants the US to completely withdraw and pull out: Korea, Japan, Phillippines, everywhere. Isolationism. If you base on the assumption that this might be the goal, the day today was the first preparatory step, and it is quite reasonable and makes sense for supporting that changed strategy indeed.

Whether the whole strategy would make sense, is somethign different. In chess I would call it: throwing the pieces off the table and breaking the board on the referee's head. It does not win you the match and does not keep you in the tournament, but it is a big boost to your impulsive ego.

Excactly what Trump favours.

[Mr Quatro]

Look at all the money the USA will save by not going to war or even planning on going to war in that part of the world?

Plus 28,000 servicemen in NK for 60 + years coming home would save even more dough.

By the way why did they call WWI men doughboys?

[Skybird]

Yes, the money&debt argument was on my mind, too, and is so like long time. The military leviathan of theirs even the US cannot really afford - if debts and affordability would still have a meaning. Unfortunately, that is not the case anymore. This leviathan is financed on tick only. And I wonder whether it really makes a difference for the final outcome anymore whether the US saves a little on its military or not - with that heap of debts they have (and most others as well).

Also, the US economy is closer associated with military and arms production than any other in the industrialised world. After WWII, it never was toned back to pre-war peace-time standard. If the US shrinks its military, sooner or later the call would come up to save on it, and that would have a backslash for the war-goods-driven economy.

If the paper money regiment still soldiers on that long. So far, all earlier paper money regimes collapsed and broke down. All of them.

[Aktungbby]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

By the way why did they call WWI men doughboys?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doughboy

[em2nought]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Yes, the money&debt argument was on my mind, too, and is so like long time. The military leviathan of theirs even the US cannot really afford - if debts and affordability would still have a meaning. Unfortunately, that is not the case anymore. This leviathan is financed on tick only. And I wonder whether it really makes a difference for the final outcome anymore whether the US saves a little on its military or not - with that heap of debts they have (and most others as well).

Also, the US economy is closer associated with military and arms production than any other in the industrialised world. After WWII, it never was toned back to pre-war peace-time standard. If the US shrinks its military, sooner or later the call would come up to save on it, and that would have a backslash for the war-goods-driven economy.

If the paper money regiment still soldiers on that long. So far, all earlier paper money regimes collapsed and broke down. All of them.

No need to cut those troops for now. Trump can do an end run around all the democrats, and just send those troops from the DMZ to the US southern border and build/garrison the wall.

[mapuc]

Small steps my friends. Small steps.

From hearing and reading all the news before and after this meeting.
I get the feeling the political expert and the commentator was awaiting they(Trump and KJU) would fall in love and like in American Western, kiss.. and NK would the day after be a free democratic country.

Of course I could have misunderstood this.

That's why I wrote in the start Small steps my friends.

The meeting itself was a major historical breakthrough.

Hopefully it will be the first of many meetings.

Hopefully it will mean more freedom to the North Korean people
(this is one of my highest hope)

Markus

[Skybird]

There were two US presidentsin the past 25 years who reached signed agreements with NK on nuclear disarmament, with concrete objects and conditions described. NK broke them all.

Now there is another loose agreement - without any substantial conditions and objects described, both sides do not even agree on terminology (what is "denuclearization" specifically now?). And this now should be the beginning of something?

You know the proverb "finders, keepers". I now invent another one: "blenders, smilers". I am certain that the Donald went home beign full of himself and being perfectly satisfied. He probbaly already dreams of getting the peace Nobel prize. Why not, after Obama'S precedence.

Hm. Make it three peace Nobel prizes. I think the Donald does not do it for anything less. With his name of the Oslo list, he then would even have made the Nobel prize winner list great again.

[Bilge_Rat]

oh man, the Trump haters are really going off the deep end now, why am I not surprised...

Kim has committed to giving up ALL of his nuclear weapons while Trump has not agreed to give up anything at all.

This is just a statement of principle, now comes the hard part of working out the details.

If it turns out in 3,6,12 months that NK is just playing for time, then the military exercises and the sanctions will get slapped back on big time.

This is a great deal for our side, all the pressure is on Kim boy to live up to his engagement.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

oh man, the Trump haters are really going off the deep end now, why am I not surprised...

Kim has committed to giving up ALL of his nuclear weapons

When, where? Show me, black on white.

You u-turn the situation completely. Kim got what he wanted, a great PR gig. Trump sells empty hands and empty words as a big success. Lip confessions, and not even an agreement on what "denuclearization" should mean, what it includes, no timetable, no means of control, nothing, rien, nada, nichts.

Kim never ever has said anywhere he is willing to give up nuclear wepaons.

You fall for the pied piper's tune.

North Korea will not give up their nuclear weapons. Live with it. They would be stupid to do so, after the Donald showed repeatedly what he thiunks of treaties and guarantees (=nothing), and after the US dealt with Libya's Gaddafi who was dumb enough to be talked by his son into handing the program's technical components over (they were taken over and moved out of Libya by a special US operation ) for nothing but some words and a warm handshake.

The best securiyt guarantee that the uS will not strike at you is - to have nuclear weapons. And you think Kim agreed to give up his life insurrance up?

Really? Do you...???

You maybe also believe that Iran has given up intentions to aquire the bomb, or not? That Iran that the Donald does sanction, mind you...

[Rockstar]

I don't think anything is going to happen over night because of this summit. Even if something were signed and agreed too there is always that concern of North Korea's long history of repeatedly reneging on its promises and agreements with others.

But it seems right now everything came together here. We have a president that put high stress in the region. Didn't give a ratz arse what his critics thought of it either. And it certainly gave everyone in the region a sense of urgency to come together for a kumbaya moment .

Then there's Slim Kim who unlike his fathers, has been educated in Switzerland and has witnessed first hand the immense prosperity of the west. If I were a betting man that alone will be the deciding factor for the hermit to come out of its shell and move ever so slowly and cautiously forward from the summit.


Then again it may all crumble before it even starts.

[Skybird]

And still, already Kim's grand father proclaimed the long term strategy of Korean military strength AND economic wealth.



I stick to it, the third Kim will not give up the first just for the latter. Its still both he is after.


Flowerkids int he West hear what they want to hear. Like with Iran.


ands because Kim was educate din the West in parts, he also knows that he will lose contorl mover his people at home if he allows too much wleath and Wetsenr influence intot he country - becasue then Northklorean heads in the working class will suddenly perceive that there is a world beyond the great beloved leader's lips commanding them. Look at Kim biography of murder and assassination, tporture and state terror. He will not let that happen.

[mapuc]

I fear Skybird may have some points here.

What if KJU makes a 180 degrees turn when his money chest is once again filled.

I also think KJU will not give up his nuclear weapons.

Hopefully I will be wrong.

Markus

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by Skybird

When, where? Show me, black on white.

google is your friend:

Convinced that the establishment of new US-DPRK relations will contribute to the peace and prosperity of the Korean peninsula and of the world, and recognizing that mutual confidence building can promote the denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:

The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new US-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity

The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula

Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula

The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

[Rockstar]

Reading some defectors thoughts on the matter. Many say the Kim regime has some serious internal problems. There is instability due to famine, infant mortality rates, sanctions, aging population, crashed economy, energy shortages, poor health of its citizens, lack of work force, a younger generation that is not as gullible as their parents, and instant information technology.

Seems to me Slim Kim has no choice. Remain a hermit kingdom and Id say his regime would collapse sooner rather than later. But that collapse might bring about uncontroled instability something China doesn't want and I don't think we do either.

Invite Slim Kim to the world stage shine him on tell him he's the best Kim and roll out the red carpet! He gladly takes center stage only then finds out about the pressure that stage brings with it. Slow changes in North Korea will still bring about regime change. Either way the Kim dynasty is probably on its way out though later rather than sooner. Only problem is that ace up his sleeve, those nukes.

[Skybird]

Bilge Rat, you are aware that it gets reported all the time that the US and NK seem to have two totally different understandings of what "denuclearization" should mean, yes? It could mean all and nothing. It has been critized since weeks that neither side seem to have been able to clearly define what that term should mean. Civilian use. Refining uranium. Missile technology of medium or long range. Nuclear weapons. Anything could be meant, and nothing. If Kim wanted to suggest the removing of his nuclear weapons, why has he not said that: "removing my (our) nuclear weapons"? In not one official Korean transcript of the past negotiations, it was reported, the expclit mentioning of removing nuclear weapons and removing Korean ability to produce them has been mentioned. Nowhere.

Heck, I even have not heard of the term "denuclearization" before... Does that include x-rays at the dentist? Its just shelling with propaganda slogans.

Take me by my word, Bilge Rat. What you read into the term - removing Korean nuclear weapon and the technology to build them - will not happen. And Trump will not even press for it. You allow getting sand strayed in your eyes.



And more chamberlainitis major spreading, it seems. It really turned into a global epidemic recently. Or is it a single case of trumpia victor alucinatio?