UK Politics Thread

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Wash, rinse. repeat. Wash, rinse, repeat.

British politics.

[Jimbuna]

No comment or I'd be forced to infract medel

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

@Ju88: Of course you are right. There are problems and the EU needs a lot of reforming, if it can even be helped anymore. I am just getting sick and tired of people echoing the whole far-right Bannon and Farage claptrap published in media like Breitbart, Fox, The Sun, The Express, the german Bild and those other usual suspects, without individually having any own idea or even the pretense to have informed themselves before they spread their opinonated hate, when the whole internals of the EU can be openly viewed, including all problems and challenges, and successes.
But conspiracies and endless lamenting are so much more fun!

Yes fair enough, but equally that can all easily be flipped in the other direction.
Owen Jones, the Guardian, Independent and Mirror, also espouse very bourgeois lefty clap trap and bad rhetoric. there is no such thing an an unbiased news source - being stuck in either bubble is not too healthy.
But people generally just go with confirmation bias - only reading from the places that tell them what they want to hear for a quick dopamine hit.
Because voluntarily challenging our own views is painful and hard.

Remember that all your top bank executives and politicians (the establishment) and prominently cosmopolitan middle class types were in favor of remaining.
Bear in mind these people are not exactly a bastion of truth, free from self interest either. But they more proficient in projecting the idea that its all because they care about others more than themselves.

lets be sensible about this shall we?

Those who want to remain:
Overall progressive middle class. left leaning and there for in favor of expanding government, more collectivism, co-operation and regulation,
They are concerned about the environment, public services & programs and the wealth divide between the wealthiest and poorest and cultural integration. keen on open borders.
A fringe of them are pro immigration for all the wrong reasons.
(Intersectional BS)
Above all else - they themselves are doing WELL in the current socio/economic conditions.

Those who want to leave
Overall conservative Working class, right leaning and in favor of smaller government. less regulation, concerned with national identity, security and heritage, keen to preserve their industry and culture and not have it dissolved in to something generic.
Have been let down / left behind in the rise of globalism.
keen on controlled immigration
A fringe of them are anti immigration for all the wrong reasons.
(Xenaphobic BS)
Above all else - they themselves are NOT doing so well in the current socio/economic conditions.

everything else I hear about about leavers and remainers can be written off as hysterical nonsense mostly. both leavers and remainers are largely ordinary people, not especially smart or stupid, and with no real ill intent if you actually talk to them properly, instead or riling them up with a stupid smear campaign and 'gotcha' moments.
Neither one is particularly right or wrong for wanting the things they want.
You go anywhere in the world and you will find people with the same kind of values.

But even then there is over lap- Conservative Right wing Remainers (ie.Cameron & Osbourne) and left Wing Brexiteers (ie Jezza & Galloway)
But the idea we should shout down and insult those we disagree with, and call them all 'nazis' or 'marxists' or whatever is plain stupid and hysterical. I'm not playing that game.

Originally Posted by Catfish

Do you think life will be better in a Europe without the EU? Really?

That is impossible to predict. But either way, it will be better for some and worse for others.
It not black and white, yes / no answer, is it?.


Think of who wants to destroy the EU, and why.
Yup i get it, but likewise we must equally:
Think of who wants to Preserve the EU, and why.

If there is one thing I've learned from all this political division, its not to trust people who start foaming at the mouth and ranting when talking about their respective political rivals.
There are some very deranged and unhinged people on the both sides of the spectrum, the insane are of no help to anyone.

[Georg Lassen]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Yeah and it is so much better to live and work there, than in the EU
Once again certain people do not differ between a social democracy and socialism/communism?

Yes the far right is rising again, using "corruption", alleged "unfair treatment" towards them and terrorism as arguments to hide their racism and hate. It is not very well hidden but it seems to work good enough for a lot of people who "inform" themselves via tabloids and petty slogans.
(aww i get tears in my eyes when i think of poor Farage and Bannon, and Trump - they would never lie or just live out their hate)

The right wing uses everything in their urge to destroy the EU. Successes and humanitarion efforts are described as "weak", and China and Russia are the new heralds of a brave new world while indeed going back to isolated, sealed-off states.
Maybe it is only me but no i do not like their political systems at all!

Ok so maybe you can be "lucky" soon and have isolated, sealed off borders again, with nations that prefer war to trade. Have fun, i hope it hits you right between the eyes when it happens. Winter war anyone?

USA has many of the same issues that European countries are dealing with but the main difference is the US constitution that guarantees freedoms that are not guaranteed in Europe.


Social democracy does not represent freedom any more than bolsevism, it has only worked in some sense in countries with a very homogeneous population.
Its implemention has been very close to national socialism, now countries that are trying to expand it even more and at the same time combine it with massive immigration are going broke.


Very typical of the left is that when you find someone you cant convert you get a tempre tantrum, sometimes I feel socialist tendencies are related to persons early childhood in some way.




Finland is a military camp, if Russia wants to come we will destroy them, that is balance of power at this time.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by STEED

Forget Brexit time for a revolution in British politics it's time for the masses to wake up and bin this rotten out of date system for a system that works for us the voter.

STOP VOTING FOR THE SAME OLD WORN OUT WAST OF TIME PARTYS.

If we are still in the EU at the time of the EU elections I will not be wasting my time time bothering to vote, I got better things to do. And that goes for all elections.

Welcome to my club. There are so many more so very solid and reasonable, logical reasons not to vote, it is beyond my horizon why people still believe in this insane muppets operetta. I recommended him before, and now do again: check the books of Jason Brennan. He is one of the leading academics in politics and political history, the WP once called him the leading expert on the theme of elections and political education. He delivers full broadsides against the flawed logic of "democracy". So far I have not heard anyone being able to seriously put the base arguments of his reasoning and conclusions into doubt, which is even more difficult since he bases on a profound empirical basis. Thats why many people have foamy mouths when wanting to confront him, but they cannot. Needless to say, he extremely polarises, since "democracy" today is not only not correctly understood as what it really means, but also is the golden calf everybody dances around - and here comes him laughing about it... I however disagree a bit on his argument for epistocracy, but cannot offer a better alternative expect maybe Hoppe's concept of private rights societies. Like Hoppe, Brennan is better in showing the extreme weakness and corruption of the current paradigm, than in pointing out realistic and fully functional alternatives. This does not make their criticism less valid and less precious, though. Possible that I am not consistent enough in following his view of epoistocracy, its a radical approach that again demands quite alot of trust in man, trust that I have become very hesitent to provide. Political ideas that violate natural base ingredients of human nature, imo must fall and falter sooner or later - always. Meaning it well, is not enough. Appealing to people to be kind and altruistic for the sake of these traits, is meaningless. Wishing that man would not be so, but would just be something different, is a waste of time and energy, and ignores the driving principle behind the model of evolution.



https://www.amazon.co.uk/Against-Dem...=jason+brennan


And I just see there is a new book by him. I will check if it will be published in German as well:


https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-All-El...=jason+brennan

Why you have the right to resist unjust government The economist Albert O. Hirschman famously argued that citizens of democracies have only three possible responses to injustice or wrongdoing by their governments: we may leave, complain, or comply. But in When All Else Fails, Jason Brennan argues that there is a fourth option. When governments violate our rights, we may resist. We may even have a moral duty to do so. For centuries, almost everyone has believed that we must allow the government and its representatives to act without interference, no matter how they behave. We may complain, protest, sue, or vote officials out, but we can't fight back. But Brennan makes the case that we have no duty to allow the state or its agents to commit injustice. We have every right to react with acts of "uncivil disobedience." We may resist arrest for violation of unjust laws. We may disobey orders, sabotage government property, or reveal classified information. We may deceive ignorant, irrational, or malicious voters. We may even use force in self-defense or to defend others. The result is a provocative challenge to long-held beliefs about how citizens may respond when government officials behave unjustly or abuse their power.

Are they certain that Brennan authored this book - and not me...?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by STEED

Forget Brexit time for a revolution in British politics it's time for the masses to wake up and bin this rotten out of date system for a system that works for us the voter.

STOP VOTING FOR THE SAME OLD WORN OUT WAST OF TIME PARTYS.

If we are still in the EU at the time of the EU elections I will not be wasting my time time bothering to vote, I got better things to do. And that goes for all elections.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Welcome to my club.

Seriously?

[Jimbuna]

Big danger of a delay is lots of erstwhile Tory voters defecting to New UKIP, the future breakaway ERG party, the EDF or whoever shouts loudest and longest about a Brexit betrayal, and letting Oh Jeremy Co-o-o-rbyn/Steptoe slip into power.

Presumably the Tory party has already thought of that and put a strategy in place to prevent it.....and just not told us yet.

[mapuc]

(To stay in this EU-discussion)

Sitting here and wonder if all what I have heard through the years when it comes to the Swedish and Danish national Parliament and what the reporters have said in these two countries.

Things like

"Our government can't just make a law or adjust a law without taking EU into consideration, EU have a huge influence on what type of law and how they are made in our country(Sweden/Denmark)"

So this is what I understand not true

What those reporters and journalist have told us viewers are fake

Markus
(End of To stay in this EU-discussion)

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Seriously?

Since when do I label career politicians as antisocial parasites, and since when do I argue that it is irresponsible to legitimise these gangsters time and again, and since when do i tell people they should boycott elections and practice civiol disobedience to their rules designed to serve their ownj interests, not our both mine and yours...? But deeper and deeper into the valley of darkness the journey goes instead.



Since a very long time for sure. Since years and years



So yes: serious I am. "Welcome to my club", Steed.

[Skybird]

Heck, ten years I posted this, terribly flawed with many typos due to extreme speed-typing :


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159065


Many of the mechanisms mentioned there in different conbtexts, are true for career politics as well.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by mapuc

(To stay in this EU-discussion)

Sitting here and wonder if all what I have heard through the years when it comes to the Swedish and Danish national Parliament and what the reporters have said in these two countries.

Things like

"Our government can't just make a law or adjust a law without taking EU into consideration, EU have a huge influence on what type of law and how they are made in our country(Sweden/Denmark)"

So this is what I understand not true

What those reporters and journalist have told us viewers are fake

Markus
(End of To stay in this EU-discussion)

Much like any big institution or nation - The Eu only cracks down /enforces its rules & principles on member states internal laws and policy when it suits them / serves their own interests to do so.
When there is a conflict they will try to push/bully to get what they want. but if not - they just shrug and say 'its not our place to get involved with this nations internal affairs.'
So for the most part they wont care what internal laws Denmark and Sweden make. Spain pretty much flouts their EU obligation on reducing carbon emissions, and puts sky high tax tarrifs on renewable energy. What does Eu do to punish them? Absolutely Nothing.
But they'll come down like a ton of Bricks on Greece when they have referendum on returning to the Drachma and declaring bankruptcy.

if i had pound for every political institution that actually applied its principles consistently, I would have... well no pounds, lol.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by JU_88

[...]
if i had pound for every political institution that actually applied its principles consistently, I would have... well no pounds, lol.

Soon..

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Soon..

one thats run by AI or aliens maybe, human cant seem to do it?

[mapuc]

Have hope my English friend....it seems like you will have a second chance to make it right this time..(said with an irony)

Markus

[STEED]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Welcome to my club. There are so many more so very solid and reasonable, logical reasons not to vote

I started too be a part time voter in the 1990's and since then all I have witness is lies deflections and put it on the back burner. Today's lot at Westminster have to be the bloody worst sham to date. I want to vote but how can I when all that is on offer from the big to small party's offer nothing but BS.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Seriously?

I see old jim is green with envy.

Originally Posted by Skybird

"Welcome to my club", Steed.

Many thanks Sky.






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PM May is about to rule out no deal and extend talks for another month.