[REL] Natural Sinking Mechanics

Originally Posted by Demon777

Hi Werner and everybody,

First of all thanks for the mod! It is a real 'must have' one.

But I'd be glad if you answer a question... while testing NSM in tutorial campaign, I was a bit surprised by the power of torpedoes. A large freighter (Victory-class) had been sunk within 5 minutes after only ONE impact by Mk14, I should note that this impact was at the bow of the ship. T3 tanker also couldn't stand one impact (right in the center). I've read about the basis of flooding-level and 'cargo factor', but still I don't know why such a large ships cannot stand one torpedo...
Their overall displacement is more than 17000 tons, so this looks quite strange :hmm:

keep in mind these were single hull ships that were nothing like ships are built today so have a look at how many liberty ships, before they were even attacked, simply broke in half due to design flaws and rough seas and you can understand how a single torpedo can easily sink a ship. they also didnt have the best flood controls or firefighting equipt.

also there are limits to what you can do with this game because the damage models are screwed up for so many ships and some you just cant do anything to fix.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Demon777

But I'd be glad if you answer a question... while testing NSM in tutorial campaign, I was a bit surprised by the power of torpedoes. A large freighter (Victory-class) had been sunk within 5 minutes after only ONE impact by Mk14, I should note that this impact was at the bow of the ship. T3 tanker also couldn't stand one impact (right in the center). I've read about the basis of flooding-level and 'cargo factor', but still I don't know why such a large ships cannot stand one torpedo...
Their overall displacement is more than 17000 tons, so this looks quite strange :hmm:

Allied merchants are not covered by NSM.

[Demon777]

OK. Thanks guys!

[Doolittle81]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

07-01-2008
Luke, master guru and co-conspirator of the RFB modding crew has taken it upon himself to remake NSM for SH1.5. He has been joined by observer, who has previous experience in this area. Others could be involved by now. If I weren't sleeping at the switch, I'd be testing for them. Together, they will produce an updated and better version of NSM. I personally hope they'll change the name to avoid confusion.

This will take some time. They are not reengineering NSM, but recreating it. The job requires rezoning each and every ship in the game, testing, tweaking, swearing, retweaking, drinking adult beverages, retesting, swearing.... So it will get here but have patience. There are SO MANY things that could go tragically wrong if they hurry.

I'm just curious....How's the NSM for 1.5 coming along?

Meanwhile, I'm on the 5th or 6th patrol in the OpsMonsun Sept1939-May1945 campaign. On my 4th (?) patrol I sailed into Scap Flow in my IIB U-Boot with its measly Five total torpedoes...put three into HMS Repulse Battle cruiser (48K tons) which showed some limited/lingering fires for the next 24+ hours but barely listed. I stayed in the area and, after reloading, subsequently put my remaining two torpedoes into HMS Illustrious carrier (23k tons) which quickly listed, then rolled 90 degrees, and sunk...rested sideways on the shallow bottom with about one-third above the surface. As it happens, I have "NSM4 light" and "ROW PE3 Special effects for NSM4 Light #2c" enabled...not sure if I should have these enabled (!?!)

According to actual historical results, on 14 October 1939, U-47, under the command of Günther Prien, penetrated Scapa Flow and sank the old battleship HMS Royal Oak anchored in Scapa Bay. Her second torpedo attack blew a 30-foot (9 m) hole in the Royal Oak and as a result she flooded and quickly capsized. Of the 1,400-man crew, 833 were lost.

So, I guess I can more or less accept my results as being more or less 'accurate/realistic" ?? Right???

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Doolittle81

I'm just curious....How's the NSM for 1.5 coming along?

Well, it's not really NSM, since the ideas and principles behind the mod are mainly those of Observer and Teddy Bar, which you might remember from NYGM. The working name of the mod right now is "Ship Damage Model."

Okay, semantics out of the way... The mod is coming along very well. We hope to have the merchants completed soon and implemented in the next release of RFB.

Meanwhile, I'm on the 5th or 6th patrol in the OpsMonsun Sept1939-May1945 campaign....

...So, I guess I can more or less accept my results as being more or less 'accurate/realistic" ?? Right???

Just realize those ships you targeted are non-stock ships (I believe they're from SH3), so they're likely to exhibit some bizarre behavior, especially since Werner didn't cover them in NSM.

[Doolittle81]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

...
... The mod is coming along very well. We hope to have the merchants completed soon and implemented in the next release of RFB.
...

Thanks for the quick and informative reply.

Now, the kicker...Will this SDM Mod be released separately so that it can be enabled over 'Stock 1.5 + OM' and 'Stock 1.5 + RSRDC'?

I personally don't use RFB or TMO, though I know that they are outstanding Mods.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Doolittle81

Now, the kicker...Will this SDM Mod be released separately so that it can be enabled over 'Stock 1.5 + OM' and 'Stock 1.5 + RSRDC'?

I personally don't use RFB or TMO, though I know that they are outstanding Mods.

That's ultimately up to Observer, since it's his mod.

[Demon777]

Recently I sank giant European liner (18700 tons). I must say it took about TEN Mk23s
This is notwithstanding more or less equal impacts distribution...
It seems that only Titanic-like ships would require so many torps lol

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Doolittle81

...I sailed into Scap Flow in my IIB U-Boot with its measly Five total torpedoes...So, I guess I can more or less accept my results as being more or less 'accurate/realistic" ?? Right???

Results, yes; action, probably not. Prien didn't just sail into Scapa Flow. Dönitz himself carefully planned the mission using the latest aerial photographs, and he hand-picked Prien for the job. It was the only successful German harbor raid of the war.

[Demon777]

I noticed that in NSM4 Fubuki-class destroyer cannot be sunk by one torp if aiming at the center of the hull (not keel). The ship lists, but doesn't sink or capsize

[linerkiller]

Is this project still alive?:hmm:

[doulos05]

I LOVE this mod! Awesome. Ships may take longer to sink, but I don't care. I like knowing that if I hit one Large Modern Tanker just behind the funnel at 10 feet below the waterline and it floods quickly and capsizes, then the next one will happen just the same way if I hit the same spot. Less random, more skill.

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by doulos05

I like knowing that if I hit one Large Modern Tanker just behind the funnel at 10 feet below the waterline and it floods quickly and capsizes, then the next one will happen just the same way if I hit the same spot. Less random, more skill.

That's not the hallmark of a good sinking mechanics mod. With the new sinking mechanics model coming with RFB, a hit in a particular spot may or may not cause a ship to capsize/explode/stop dead in the water, etc. Unpredictability becomes the name of the game: a bulkhead may or may not collpase. A fuel bunker may or may not ignite. The deeper a torpedo hits, the greater damage it will do to the ship. Though I respect the work Werner did with NSM, those types of "unpredictability factors" just aren't present with NSM.

[doulos05]

Perhaps, but there is still more skill involved than a rote "Reduce targets HP to zero". Ships flood in a predictable manner. Flooding a given compartment on a given ship with a given load should produce a relatively predictable result. Now, I will freely admit that the mechanics of torpedoes and hull failures <b>aren't</b> predictable. But the mechanics of sinking are, and if I can manage to inflict similar damage on two ships of the same class, I can expect similar results. I guess that's what I was trying to say. Now if I can just get the influence detonators on my Mk.14s to work....

BTW, my most recent sinking was quite entertaining to watch. I hit it 1/2 way between the stern and the composite superstructure. It took almost 2 hours to settle by her stern (as well as a second torpedo to speed the process as it was getting towards dawn and I didn't want to be stuck watching her sink while waiting for the Betties). When she did finally up-end, she bobbed vertically in the water for about 10 minutes. She would rise up on a wave and then, in a burst of bubbles, settle even deeper into the sea. It was quite fun. One quick question, I know that in the basic version of the game, visible damage is only for show. Is that also true in NSM and in the new version for RFB?

Also, I've never done any modding before for a game, but I'm an amateur programmer and if you guys need any code monkeys or lab rats, I'd be glad to help. I wasn't sure if I was going to try one of the "supermods" anytime soon, but if RFB includes the newest iteration of NSM... well, I'll have to fork out the $10 for the 1.5 patch a lot sooner than anticipated.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by linerkiller

Is this project still alive?:hmm:

Play taps. Werner has left on eternal patrol. His mod no longer works with all our ships and has no application to U-Boats at all. It has unresolved side effects that make its use a big problem. It has been eliminated from TMO for just that reason. One common problem is a column of thick smoke hanging over the water that will follow you everywhere. (Hey look! Here comes a submarine over the horizon!)

The RFB rework (actually a completely new mod from the ground up) will be much better! It will most likely be released as a stand-alone mod for everyone else too.