Malaysian Airlines MH317

[Jimbuna]

Reports of 196 bodies having been recovered and ex riot police forming a cordon around the site, bringing back a little stability and discipline.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28389991

[TarJak]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-0...owning/5613214

The resolution has passed. Now watch it get ignored by the rebels until Putin steps in to put pressure on them.

[Skybird]

The Ukrainian secret service claims that a Russian Buk launcher with one missing missile has brought to Russia and passed the border.

And the Russian secret service or military claims that an Ukrainian Su-25 had approached the Boeing up to 3 km distance and even climbed to get to its altitude.

(The Su-25 is a ground attack-specialised combat aircraft, but it can carry AAMs, too.)

Wowh, I miss the UFO hysteria of the 80s and 90s! Things were so clear and well-sorted back then! You just had to chose what you wanted to believe, and then you did believe it and were happy. But today, all these many facts, it makes it difficult, doesn't it.

So good to see so qualified, trustworthy sources contributing their expertise to the final examination report!

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The Ukrainian secret service claims that a Russian Buk launcher with one missing missile has brought to Russia and passed the border.

And the Russian secret service or military claims that an Ukrainian Su-25 had approached the Boeing up to 3 km distance and even climbed to get to its altitude.

Highly possible that both are correct.

A Ukrainian Frogfoot could well have been in the area near the Boeing and was subsequently targeted by the Buk, which due to inept operators promptly shot down the Boeing.

[TarJak]

Just heard that the flight recorders have been handed over to Malaysian authorities and a cease fire declared around the crash site. Putin?

[CCIP]

Why must it be Putin?

On that subject - I'm not exactly in the Ron Paul fan club, but you know, I have to mostly agree with his commentary here:

http://www.fitsnews.com/2014/07/20/r...irline-attack/

Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the U.S. media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft. The real point is, it’s very difficult to get accurate information so everybody engages in propaganda. At this point it would be unwise to say the Russians did it, the Ukrainian government did it, or the rebels did it.

Is it so hard to simply demand a real investigation?

Spot on about the media coverage and political exploitation of this still-very-unclear situation, IMO.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Why must it be Putin?

Because to some people it seems he is the saviour and bringer of good news in a crysis.

Detached from reality i'd say. Or read the news from crappy sources and miss-interpret what is reported.

Who ordered ceasefire?

Seems the Rebels (pro-russian, yes) did, considering they hold the ground where the Jet went down.
They also handed over the black boxes.

Oh Putin our great saviour, where art thou?

2+2=4.

They also announced a ceasefire within a 10 kilometre (six mile) radius around the crash site to allow international investigators to safely access the vast area where the Malaysia Airlines flight was downed Thursday

SOURCE

Mind you, it took 2 days for the permission to be granted for investigators to gain access to crash site.

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by Skybird

And the Russian secret service or military claims that an Ukrainian Su-25 had approached the Boeing up to 3 km distance and even climbed to get to its altitude.

(The Su-25 is a ground attack-specialised combat aircraft, but it can carry AAMs, too.)

SU-25 only has a service ceiling of about 7000m, while the Boeing was travelling faster at 10000m. So those statements smell of something.

[TarJak]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Why must it be Putin?

The question is open hence my punctuation. Putin may have had no influence or he may have told the rebels what to do.


I certainly don't see him as a saviour. Just someone with significant influence over the actions of the separatist movement. They want to be part of Russia and so will pamper to his desires.

[Feuer Frei!]

Political, economic and financial options would be presented if access hadn't been gained.

Russia's influence on the rebels is undeniable.



Yet
Although from a diplomatic point of view, direct responsibility to order the Rebels to comply and give access to the crash site would be Putin being looked upon 'favourably' by the world.


Obama: "What are they trying to hide"?

[Onkel Neal]

I don't see why anyone is uncertain or mystified over the cause and authors of this tragedy? Hey, even Russian people know what's up.

The tributes at the Dutch Embassy in Moscow include a hand-drawn picture of a plane broken in midair with the caption "children should not die," in a child's handwriting.

Another message reads: "We are afraid, we are ashamed, we are in mourning."
While the official Russian position is that Russia played no role and has no responsibility for the crash, what's striking in many of the notes is the use of the phrase "forgive us."

The messages give a sense that the people who have left them do feel that Russia has an element of responsibility in what is playing out in eastern Ukraine.
One note reads, in English, "Excuse us, please, if you can. Sorry! Russia, Moscow."

At least when the US shot down that Iranian airliner, they owned up to it.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I don't see why anyone is uncertain or mystified over the cause and authors of this tragedy? Hey, even Russian people know what's up.



At least when the US shot down that Iranian airliner, they owned up to it.

Based on what evidence? The problem is that it's putting the cart before the horse - there hasn't been a proper investigation and that takes time. The Iran Air situation isn't the same thing - that missile was launched from a USN ship, and even there the investigation and admission that there was no reason to shoot at the airliner took a long time.

As for "knowing what's up", that is taking the language there severely out of context and is frankly propagandistic. The apologies in this case are a collective sense that humanity has failed there, and you should also keep in mind that for many, Russians and (at least eastern) Ukrainians are a collective identity. I would've used the same language - I've got a lot of friends and family in the Ukraine, with far from everyone agreeing on politics and what to do about the east, but to me this war is still one which is fought by "us" against "us". "We" do share a common identity, culture, and social connections and "we" feel for the human tragedy. This has no political implications and no implication of state responsibility.

The bottom line is that until there is an investigation, I don't think any of this is fair to say. And as I said elsewhere, more pointedly, if this disaster shows anything it's that the separatists are NOT under Moscow's operational control in any sense at all - the shootdown would not have happened if they were. Putin has nothing to gain from this. Russia has a lot to lose from this. I would be the last person on earth to defend Putin, but describing the situation in terms like "Russia/Putin shot it down" is as facetious as saying that Reagan and his crew launched airliners into the Twin Towers or that America gassed the Kurds. I mean hey, it was that government that helped arm the Taliban and their buddy Bin Laden to fight the Soviets, and Saddam to fight Iran. The identification of "Russia"/"Russians" as shooting down the airliner - even assuming that the missile was provided from Russia and launched by someone under operational control of the separatists - is bothersome, disturbing and propagandistic. To suggest that it was launched under Russia's operational control makes zero sense and I am yet to see any evidence to suggest this other than stuff like this, which amounts to mistranslations of condolences, twisted to suit a political cause. That cause, by the way, is creating a new bogeyman for Captain America to flex muscles at, because someone finally realized they've already lost the war on terror, a decade too late. And I may have no reason to sympathise with Putin, but I have even less sympathy for anyone trying to use a tragedy to provoke a Cold War II.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Julhelm

SU-25 only has a service ceiling of about 7000m, while the Boeing was travelling faster at 10000m. So those statements smell of something.

7000? You read it after the edit i assume. Well, as per Russian MOD>>>> It was operating well above its ceiling of
23,000 feet. Even more interesting the Wiki page of the Su-25 was edited (by a Russian IP address) to update its specifications…

One more thing to note:

the graphic used by the Russian MoD has another major flaw: it depicts (on the left) the Boeing 777 as a Boeing 707, and the Su-25 (on the right) with the shape of an EF-111 Raven, a famous, retired, U.S. electronic warfare plane!





Edited specs:




Good job, keep the propaganda rolling.

[CCIP]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-0...-warplanes-mh1

Russia's MOD is also showing satellite imagery of what they say are Ukrainian SA-11 launchers that were within firing range of MH17 on July 14th, and were moved away by July 17th.

They've also positioned a set of 10 questions to Ukraine about the crash which, IMO, are mostly valid to ask (although some are obviously loaded) and Ukraine has yet to properly address:

1. The Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?

2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of their deployment [of SA-11s] in the war zone? Most importantly - why were these systems deployed there, as the militia possesses no planes?

3. What are the causes of inactivity by the Ukrainian authorities in forming an international commission? When will this committee begin working?

4. Should the Ukrainian military be treated equivalently to international experts when presenting information regarding air-to-air and ground-to-air weapons?

5. Will they pass objective data about the movements of Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy to an international commission?

6. Why did Ukrainian air traffic controllers allow deviation of the aircraft's route to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?

7. Why was airspace over the combat zone not completely closed to civilian aircraft, especially since this area has gaps in primary radar coverage for navigation?

8. Could Kiev officials comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which say that the downed Boeing was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?

9. Why has the Security Service of Ukraine been working on recordings between air traffic control and the downed Boeing, as well as radar data, without international representatives?

10. What could be learned from the previous similar disaster of a Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? It is important to note that at that time the Ukrainian Armed Forces denied any involvement in the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed otherwise.

[Jimbuna]

Hopefully an independant investigation on the whole sorry affair can come up with some definitive answers.