SUBSIM Radio Room Forums



SUBSIM: The Web's #1 resource for all submarine & naval simulations since 1997

Go Back   SUBSIM Radio Room Forums > General > Submarine Scale Models: Subs, Naval, Tanks, Planes, Trains, Space & Other
Forget password? Reset here

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-14-15, 01:21 PM   #871
Eichhörnchen
Starte das Auto
 
Eichhörnchen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: The Fens
Posts: 15,791
Downloads: 5
Uploads: 0


Default Scale Color

Is the practice of lightening the tone of paint used on models, usually by the addition of white; the smaller the scale of the model, the lighter the tone needs to be, so the logic goes, for it to capture the look of the full-sized "prototype" (the idea being that a large object, such as an aeroplane, can look surprisingly light in tone even if it's dark in colour, especially on a sunny day, because of the amount of light gathered then reflected to the observer).

The way to replicate this and give the small model more of the "presence" of the real thing is to raise the overall tone of the finish. There are some colours, like red, where this can be a problem: you'd just end up with a pink Fokker Triplane, for example; in this case there's not much can be done.




These white-metal cars were about 1:76 scale (designed for railroad layouts to HO:OO) and so very small; I've tried to show them actual size here. You can see how I rendered mudguards, tyres etc in what is actually a dark grey, but in this scale your eye tells you that the colour is black. Notice especially the roof panel on the van: on the real vehicle this would have been a black or very dark fabric, but on such a tiny model I had to paint it mid-grey in order for it to look right.

The little Austin "Ruby" at left is painted dark grey then given a coat of not-too glossy varnish (another "scale" issue: a highly glossy model looks all wrong, even if the real object it imitates is highly polished). The Austin will look like a black car on the layout, however.

The green car would've been quite a dark green, but if you sprayed such a tiny model with the same paint as used on the real car, it would appear much too dark because it would gather and reflect far less light.

There can be problems, such as when you come to black decals, because they are usually too black, despite their small scale. You can get a mismatch, which I've tried to illustrate with my 1:72 scale Spit below: the prop blades and tyres are in "scale" black (i.e. dark grey) but they clash somewhat with the kit's invasion-stripe decal at rear.



The "dark" green & grey camo is lightened too, but this just becomes a matter of estimation by "eye" (a sunnier day will make a plane look lighter than on a dull day anyway). And of course you may just think this is a load of bunk...
__________________
Eichhörnchen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-15, 01:37 PM   #872
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

I am familiar with the process, I just didn't register at first. Sorry.

No, I don't usually do that, mainly because I'm never sure exactly how much is enough. I saw one article in which the modeler actually used different colors of CDL to represent the top side of the wing, which was constantly exposed to the sun, to the bottom, which is always in the shadow. I couldn't really see the difference.

When I was building a lot of WW2 models I added a lighter or darker color to each model, to represent long-time exposure or factory-fresh paint, and because different paint batches aren't always the same. In a discussion about PC-10, the most common British WW1 paint, someone once said that there were at least five different factory mixes and in the field they mixed their own, meaning you could use almost any color green and no one could say you were wrong.
__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-15, 02:13 PM   #873
Eichhörnchen
Starte das Auto
 
Eichhörnchen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: The Fens
Posts: 15,791
Downloads: 5
Uploads: 0


Default

I haven't done a lot of WWI modelling, but I do recall reading somewhere that the Germans used a lighter "lozenge" patterned fabric on the top surfaces of their biplanes' lower wings so it did not contrast with the upper wing when viewed from above. German efficiency, I guess. I've always found these lozenge-camouflages intriguing, but never discovered quite how they were supposed to work: do you know?
__________________
Eichhörnchen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-15, 03:57 PM   #874
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

Actually yes. After a fashion. Kinda sorta. There are several decal makers who sell German four and five color lozenge. There is one company which makes the large hex lozenge for bombers. They all come with both upper and lower colors and include rib tape, which was usually blue but sometimes red. All include very detailed instructions.

This site gives a fair overall description of hex camo types.
http://wwiaviation.blogspot.com/p/ca...corner_04.html

Most lozenge was pre-printed fabric (as were the two-tone streak patterns later in the war), but I've seen one photograph of a flying boat that had hand-painted hexes. Some companies applied it span-wise, or running the link of the wings, some applied it chord-wise, running from front to rear, and some put it on diagonally.
http://www.wwiaviation.com/lozenge.html

The colors are the subject of much controversy, as are all WW1 colors.
http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/Colors/German/loz2/
__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-15, 04:35 PM   #875
Aktungbby
Gefallen Engel U-666
 
Aktungbby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy
Posts: 27,981
Downloads: 22
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eichhornchen View Post
The way to replicate this and give the small model more of the "presence" of the real thing is to raise the overall tone of the finish. There are some colours, like red, where this can be a problem: you'd just end up with a pink Fokker Triplane, for example; in this case there's not much can be done.






This has been an extremely interesting discussion on colour density; truly the wisdom of an accomplished artist accustomed to pigment issues. I'll consider it in future projects myself! However if we could lighten up on the 'insinuation' about pink Fokkers it would be appreciated
Pink is just 'jake' on a Fokker- especially when yer engaged in a Spandau Ballet with one!
especially with Vierfarbiger losenge camo on the underside allright so I'm a little light in my flying boots!
__________________

"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe"
Aktungbby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-15, 05:27 PM   #876
Eichhörnchen
Starte das Auto
 
Eichhörnchen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: The Fens
Posts: 15,791
Downloads: 5
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aktungbby View Post
However if we could lighten up on the 'insinuation' about pink Fokkers it would be appreciated
You're confusing me with "Bad Eichhörnchen" in GT's...
__________________
Eichhörnchen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-15, 08:00 PM   #877
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

Fuselage together, lower wing and landing gear mounted.

__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-15, 01:29 AM   #878
Eichhörnchen
Starte das Auto
 
Eichhörnchen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: The Fens
Posts: 15,791
Downloads: 5
Uploads: 0


Default Lozenge Camouflage

The three links you provided are a valuable resource. The second one, which touches on my question, compares this camouflage with "Pointillism", which naturally grabbed my attention.

But... "the beauty of this optical illusion is that the dominant color of the background visually enhances a similar color in the lozenge and fools the mind into seeing the two as the same".

Does he mean the dominant colour of the environment in which the aircraft stands? I presume so, and if so then this is an astonishing idea which I would never have guessed at! I've always struggled to understand how this camouflage was supposed to work.
__________________
Eichhörnchen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-15, 08:28 AM   #879
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

How it's actually supposed to work? I have no idea. I do like the way it looks, though.
__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-15, 09:39 AM   #880
Aktungbby
Gefallen Engel U-666
 
Aktungbby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: On a tilted, overheated, overpopulated spinning mudball on Collision course with Andromeda Galaxy
Posts: 27,981
Downloads: 22
Uploads: 0


Default

Quote:
I've always struggled to understand how this camouflage was supposed to work.
Camouflage is meant to deceive the eye. PERIOD. The classic case that comes to mind in Black May is when anti- submarine aircraft were painted blue, white or gray. To an always alert bridge crew on a U-boat, this was devastating in terms of dive response times. An aircraft, formerly discernible at 5 minutes out was now only discernible from 3 minutes out; and diving at over 100 mph-closing fast. The time differential combined with new shallow-depth bombing was more effective. Of all the anti sub tactics, the repainting was perhaps the most effective and simplest technique. Simply: All combat takes place in two mediums: time and terrain; If you shorten or misdirect an opponent's attack or defense time due to his retina's beguilement: his effectiveness is lessened and may even occasion the element of surprise. The classic case, IMHO, of the misuse of camo was 'measure five' in which only a bow wave was painted to give the impression of greater speed (throwing off gunnery or torpedo settings time) US Nothhampton: the cheap solution to an expensive military problem...paint BBY! Even Julius Caesar's boats were sea green when he scouted Britannia's coast. Naturally the losenge pattern of WWI has become the MARPAT of the digitalized age; I in my surplus camo-gear, old and slow moving (time), but still ruthless, keen eyed, and cunning on the paintball field (terrain) against ninja-13 year-olds need all the help I can get....as swift retreats are not an option at my age. veeerrry little losenge camo: Nuthin good goes outta style BBY!
__________________

"Only two things are infinite; The Universe and human squirrelyness; and I'm not too sure about the Universe"

Last edited by Aktungbby; 07-15-15 at 09:50 AM.
Aktungbby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-15, 12:32 PM   #881
Eichhörnchen
Starte das Auto
 
Eichhörnchen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: The Fens
Posts: 15,791
Downloads: 5
Uploads: 0


Default

Yes of course there are many different approaches to camouflage (and I'm only considering the painted kind here). Apart from the basic obscuring of something using local colour, there is the disruption of form with highly contrasting tones and colours; confusion of perception (as in your bow-wave example and those optical illusions emblazoned on the fuselages of WW1 aircraft, also "fake" cockpit canopies painted on the underside of F-16s to give the momentary impression that the top of the aircraft is being presented).

But this notion of throwing out a myriad of coloured patches, Pointillist-style (the lozenges) with the expectation that the brain will be baffled and bamboozled in this way is quite odd and interesting.

And when you see someone in a movie dressed in black with the intention of avoiding detection at night, you can be sure he will stand out much more readily than someone dressed in colorful clothing of a middling tone: there is no colour at night... tone is what matters: a black cat will be far easier to spot at night than a ginger one; it is rarely totally pitch-dark.
__________________

Last edited by Eichhörnchen; 07-15-15 at 01:08 PM.
Eichhörnchen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-15, 06:23 PM   #882
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

Main paint done.



The tops of the wings and fuselage are questionable. Most early camo jobs were brown and green, sprayed or brushed in the field. On the other hand the streaked sides were a Fokker factory finish, but I've only seen them on Dr.Is and D.VIIs. If the sides are streaked green there is a chance that the wing tops are as well (this was true later on the Dr.I). If the nose was solid green there is a chance that the wings were as well. There is also a chance that the sides aren't streaked green at all, but CDL well-stained with oil. The only photo I've seen is that group shot. The color guide that comes with the decals I bought have the whole fuselage spine being camouflaged. A set of drawings I downloaded show the white top. This gentleman built an absolutely stunning 1/48th scale model, and I presume the kit came with a painting guide. The problem there is that if the group photo is indeed the only one then there is absolutely no evidence one way or the other as to how the plane was really painted. Everybody is guessing.

I decided to copy Mr. Voloshin's example. His model is very similar to the paintings I downloaded, with the exception of wider black stripes on the spine (not applied yet).
__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-15, 06:50 PM   #883
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

Decals in place.

__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-15, 08:00 PM   #884
Sailor Steve
Eternal Patrol
 
Sailor Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: High in the mountains of Utah
Posts: 50,369
Downloads: 745
Uploads: 249


Default

Spandau gun, cabanes and top wing mounted.




Only the forward struts are installed because they need some special detailing before the aft struts go in.
__________________
“Never do anything you can't take back.”
—Rocky Russo
Sailor Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-15, 12:49 AM   #885
em2nought
Ocean Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,309
Downloads: 0
Uploads: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailor Steve View Post
Main paint done.


Your Fokker streaked green came out really good I think, it even does Eichhornchen's lightening to scale thing which I'd never heard before.

Never knew that was the way lozenge was supposed to work either, thanks for the link.
__________________
ISRAEL: Essentially "The Alamo" 24/7, 365 since 1947

Last edited by em2nought; 07-18-15 at 12:51 AM. Reason: expound
em2nought is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
model


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1995- 2024 Subsim®
"Subsim" is a registered trademark, all rights reserved.