The PlayersDB Project, A new Harpoon3 database

[Herman]

Over 12 new aircraft, ships, submarines, facilities, classes, countries, and weapons have been added to the Harpoon3 PlayersDB with the official Database editor issued by AGSI.

Get the PlayersDB-ANW on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Get the PlayersDB on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Additions include:

{}Arty 155mm Bty Howitzer x6
{}Arty 105mm Bty Towed x6

- countless changes and improvements guaranteed not to crash any earlier scenario built with the PlayersDB

Primum non nocere [First, do no harm] - Prime Directive of the PlayersDB.

Harpoon ANW users can get the:
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Harpoon3.6.3 users can get the:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

FilesOfScenShare

[Herman]

Over 22 new aircraft, ships, submarines, facilities, classes, countries, and weapons have been added to the Harpoon3 PlayersDB with the official Database editor issued by AGSI.

Get the PlayersDB-ANW on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Get the PlayersDB on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Additions include:

{}CVS Illustrious RN 82
{}CVS Invincible RN 80
{}DD Hercules AR 73
{}DD Bristol Type 82 UK 78
{}DDG Type 42.1 Birmingham UK 82
{}MRCH Queen Elizabeth II RN 82
C-35A Learjet AR 82
CF-101B Voodoo CDN 61
F-16C Falcon Blk 50/52 PAK 10

- countless changes and improvements guaranteed not to crash any earlier scenario built with the PlayersDB

Primum non nocere [First, do no harm] - Prime Directive of the PlayersDB.

Harpoon ANW users can get the:
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Harpoon3.6.3 users can get the:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

FilesOfScenShare

[Herman]

Over 12 new aircraft, ships, submarines, facilities, classes, countries, and weapons have been added to the Harpoon3 PlayersDB with the official Database editor issued by AGSI.

Get the PlayersDB-ANW on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Get the PlayersDB on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Additions include:

PG Fast Interceptor Boat [MG]
PG Fast Interceptor Boat [GAU]
P OPV Next Generation

- countless changes and improvements guaranteed not to crash any earlier scenario built with the PlayersDB

Primum non nocere [First, do no harm] - Prime Directive of the PlayersDB.

Harpoon ANW users can get the:
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Harpoon3.6.3 users can get the:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

FilesOfScenShare

[Herman]

Over 60 new aircraft, ships, submarines, facilities, classes, countries, and weapons have been added to the Harpoon3 PlayersDB with the official Database editor issued by AGSI.

Get the PlayersDB-ANW on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Get the PlayersDB on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Additions include:

A-109 Agusta VE 83
Bell AB.206B Jet Ranger BR
Boeing 707 T/T Tanker BR 86
C-212-300 Aviocar CASA MEX 96
CVN George Bush USN 09
F-5E Tiger II MEX 04
F-5EM Tiger II BR 05
MCM Sonya (Project 1265) CU 85
MCM Yevgenya (Proj 1258) CU 77
KFIR C.2 IL 82

- countless changes and improvements guaranteed not to crash any earlier scenario built with the PlayersDB

Primum non nocere [First, do no harm] - Prime Directive of the PlayersDB.

Harpoon ANW users can get the:
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Harpoon3.6.3 users can get the:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

FilesOfScenShare

[Herman]

Over 93 new aircraft, ships, submarines, facilities, classes, countries, and weapons have been added to the Harpoon3 PlayersDB with the official Database editor issued by AGSI.

Get the PlayersDB-ANW on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Get the PlayersDB on SubSim or HarPlonkHQ.

Additions include:

{}BB Iowa USN 88
{}CG Kresta II [Damaged]
Radar Side Net|PRV-11
{}CVH Kiev [Damaged]
{}DDG Sovremennyy I [Damaged]
MM Falster DK 63
MSC Sund-klassen DK 55|Adjutant
PT Soloven DK 65-91
Radar Bar Lock|P-35M

- countless changes and improvements guaranteed not to crash any earlier scenario built with the PlayersDB

Primum non nocere [First, do no harm] - Prime Directive of the PlayersDB.

Harpoon ANW users can get the:
Complete Harpoon ANW Library

Harpoon3.6.3 users can get the:
Complete Harpoon 3.6.3 Library

FilesOfScenShare

[Gorshkov]

Lower Russian naval SAMs Pk level Herman because it is unrealistically high. Nobody want to fire I suppose as many as 20 Harpoons at one Sovremenny (SA-N-7 + AK-630 "powerful arsenal" = LOL!) to get one hit.

[Herman]

The PoK values used for the Soviet SAMs are the same as those used for the Harpoon 4.1 paper/miniatures rules (as well as ANW and HUD databases). There are other databases that use other (lower) values. You are free to make your own changes as you like for your personal enjoyment, but I don't think I'll be changing them at this time.

[Gorshkov]

So how we are to play with unrealistic rules because SA-N-4, SA-N-6a, SA-N-7 cannot engage sea-skimming anti-ship missiles due to too high minimum engagement altitudes? AK-630 is also not very useful in this role.

[Herman]

I fail to see how anyone can say what "is" or "is not" realistic. There has been no war to test out the weapons for 'real'. So, all we have are best guesses. That is why I never say that someone else's ideas are realistic or not.

I have told you the basis upon which we established the PoK values. If you disagree, you can modify them to something would make you happier. The is simply no way anyone can say if 20 Harpoons against a Sovremennyy is proper or not.

Also, SA-N-4, SA-N-6, and SA-N-7 are allowed by the game to engage sea-skimming missiles and there is nothing that a database editor can do about it. All missiles can engage sea-skimmers. I don't like it or agree with it, either, but I'm not able to control it via changes within the database (at this time).

The only thing a database editor has control over is a data flag that determines whether or not a particular weapon is 'more capable' vs. sea-skimmers or not. When that flag is enable, the missile can engage sea-skimmers without penalty. Otherwise, all SAMs are capable of engaging sea-skimmers.

[Gorshkov]

That is precisely what I think - "realistic" means some SAM types can EFFECTIVELY engage missiles and other cannot (yet many SAMs can be fired against such targets but with crappy chance of success) and THAT seems to be regulated in Harpoon 3 by "more capable flag". So try to check if this flag is enabled/disabled for mentioned above SAM types in PlayersDB and what penalty is applied if those missiles engage sea-skimmers. Unfortunately I do not possess full Harpoon 3 version so I cannot do that myself due to lack of scenario and database editors.

Next thing - can you describe me how effective is anti-radiation missile strike against shipborne radars in Harpoon 3?

[Herman]

All three SA-N-4, -6, and -7 have the Sea-Skimmer capable flag enabled. This means that they are not subject to the -30% PoK (IIRC) that is added to non-capable SAMs.

p.s. You need to check your PMs.

[Gorshkov]

So disable this flag for SA-N-4a/b (9M33M1/M2 missiles), SA-N-7 (9M38M1 missile) and SA-N-6a (5V55RM missile).

PS. I take a break with Harpoon 3 until a buy a full version this or next month. I am exhausted fighting this demo...

[Herman]

Sorry, that is not going to happen. That flag is enabled on the HUD3 as well as ANW databases for those three weapons. That means it is the 'official' stance of the Harpoon paper rules.

As I said before, you are free to make such changes to your own copy for personal use.

[Gorshkov]

So they can be still enabled in ANW and HUD3 databases but whether or not they also must be enabled in PlayersDB?

A for Soviet naval SAMs I can help you a bit by creating list of ant-seaskimming capable types. I use Russian missile destinations because they are more precise:

- SA-N-1 - V-600 (1961), V-601 (1967) - not capable, V-601M (1980s) capable
- SA-N-3 - V-611 (1969) - not capable, V-611M (1986) - capable
- SA-N-4 - 9M33 (1971), 9M33M1 (1973), 9M33M2 (1975) - not capable, 9M33M3 (1980), 9M33M5 (late 1980s) - capable
- SA-N-5 - Strela-2 (1968) - not capable
- SA-N-6 - 5V55R (1984) - not capable, 48N6 (1992) - capable, 9M96 (1999) - capable
- SA-N-7 - 9M38/3M90 (1980) - not capable
- SA-N-8 - Strela-3 (1974) - not capable
- SA-N-9 - 9M330-2 (1985) - capable
- SA-N-10 - Igla (1983) capable
- SA-N-11 - 9M311 (1988) capable
- SA-N-12 - 9M317 (?) capable

As for Western side this is not very important problem at least for Cold War era scenarios because Soviets did not have sea-skimmers except maybe SS-N-19 and SS-N-22 (I am not sure their common flying profiles). Later it was changed when SS-N-25, SS-N-26, SS-N-27 appeared. However it looks like US Navy SAMs had anti-seaskimming capable systems quire early. I suppose RIM-2E/F, RIM-8F/G/J, RIM-24C, RIM-66A, RIM-67A missiles could shot down sea-skimmers.

Other folks who have Harpoon 3 database editor can adjust respective flags accordingly.

PS. What is Harpoon "paper rule"?

[Herman]

They are enabled in the PlayersDB because they were enabled in the previous databases (upon which the PlayersDB was constructed). To just change one aspect of a database without consideration for other factors is a recipe for disaster.

As you were told privately, things like the effect/presence of ECM and decoy counter-measures is also taken into account. Therefore, the final PoK is likely to be already very low. To arbitrarily reduce the PoK for a missile at this point might end up with the PoK of the weapon to be a negative number.

The fact that you do not have a copy of the H3 database editor is your own choice. You have decided to wait for the Ultimate Edition release. That is your conscious decision. It is not something you are forced to do. I have offered to help you get started in H3, but you have elected not to do so. There is not much else I can do for you at this point.

Harpoon paper rules are the set of rules made for use with miniatures/models. It is played on a flat surface with paper maps/plots. Those paper rules are the basis upon which the computer games are made.