S-Class Sub To Be Included After All

[Tigrone]

Ukranians?

Don't they all live in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, now? Aren't they called hosers?

But, I thought Dr. Frankenfurter was the chief IT guy on this project? Don't our developers hail from Transylvania? Aren't they the left over extras from Rocky Horror?

[CCIP]

Anyway, I think we can calm down for the moment; I'd like to see what we'll get in that hands-on preview and other likely promo material to get us in the next month or so.

Otherwise I believe a word from Dan is about as sure a sign as we'll get here, and it's a good sign indeed.

[KLCARROLL]

To not include the Narwhal Class boats because “They don’t fit with the type of game play that they have prepared” is the most pathetic excuse I have ever heard for bending History to fit a “Simulation”.

The U.S. navy, like the Germany navy, entered WWII with what amounted to a peacetime compliment of submarines, and The Narwhal and her sister ships accounted for a significant percentage of that number.

.....And the U.S. navy was operating with the additional disadvantage of having recently lost a large percentage of it's surface fleet: .....the result being that for the first few months of the war, the submarines WERE the U.S. Navy!

It should also be noted that for the U.S., the first 18 months was a war of loss and retreat. It was in this environment that the true value of the big old "V-boats" became obvious. If you read the cruise summaries of these boats, you find success after success in re-supply (in one instance 45 TONS of supplies and ammo), rescue, evacuation, the landing of raiding parties, and yes, shore bombardment with those big 155mm deck guns.

In real history, the Narwhal Class boats were far from "Historically Insignificant". If the Devs are going to exclude "Historically Insignificant" classes, then they should have excluded the TypeXXI from SH3, since the XXIs never actually inflicted a loss on the enemy! (Honestly now, ....how many of you WOULDN'T scream like scalded cats if they took the Type XXIs away???)

There are also valid "simulation" reasons for including the V-boats: ....Their design was an "Americanization" of the German "U-cruiser" concept that emerged in late WWI; ....Big boats, with very long range, and very heavy surface armaments, which were intended to enhance the boat's ability as a "long cruise" commerce raider. (Hence the V-boat's 371 foot length and two 155mm guns.)

This design philosophy never really got a chance in combat, as WWI ended to soon for that; ....But in the vast Western Pacific, with Japan utterly dependent on it's shipping network for survival, the conditions favorable to the "U-cruiser" concept were re-created: ....Am I alone in thinking that those would be fascinating mission scenarios to play out?

[elanaiba]

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....

[MadMike]

Hat's off to the DevTeam, at least they're going the extra mile (1.6 km) to give us the S-boat.

Yours, Mike

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

WOOHOO!!

I can understand about the three big boats. I would love to see them but they really didn't do much in the way of war patrols.

S-boat out of Cavite? WOOHOO!!!

Dutch Harbor, Here I come!!!

S-44!!!
Thank-you

[CCIP]

Also, as I mentioned in another thread... there are indications that submarines will be moddable in SHIV, meaning there's a good chance that the V-class could be put in by those who really want it (and, let's face it, that'd be the first one on most modders' list)

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

We shall see...I just hope the Ukrainians know the difference since it can be confusing.

D'oh, I hope "they" didn't see this, that could be the end of S-boats.:rotfl:

[Payoff]

Posted by MadMike

Just one question. What in the world is a deck erection?

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

Adding any submarine class that is different in outside appearance and weapons loadout will always take development time. Which may exist or not, in a real life development cycle. So in reality, developers are forced to think what adds the most value considering the features of the game and the gameplay they have designed.

Remember that the initial plan didn't even include the S-boats....

The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.

[KLCARROLL]

Neon Deon;

Well Said! .......You have voiced my thoughts exactly!!

The Narwhal Class boats were far more important than their mere numbers might indicate!


In addition to historical issues, .....I argue in favor of including the Narwhal Class because the whole "U-cruiser" concept never really got a proper trial in either war: ....and I think we're missing a great simulation opportunity here.

The vast size of the Western Pacific, the absolute Japanese dependence on their shipping for their survival, and the widespread distribution of generally smaller merchant vessels recreated the environment the "U-cruiser Concept" was born to deal with. Just because U.S. doctrine at the time didn't implement those tactics is no reason for us not to simulate other style missions. (...And I think the results would be REALLY interesting!)

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Payoff

Just one question. What in the world is a deck erection?

That's a good one!:rotfl: I didn't notice that at first. Always read the fine print.

@Neon Deon: You're right. I take back what I said earlier about big boats and war patrols.

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

The most value are the big boats.

The Big boats Argonaut, Narwhal, and Nautilus were awarded 32 out of 39 battle stars given to the V class during WW II. These boats also carried the biggest guns aboard a U S Navy submarine. Two 6 inch 53 caliber cannons(you can still see the Nautilus' guns on display at the Naval Submarine Base New London, in Groton, Connecticut).

The Nautilus and Narwhal could carry 100 marines and 100 tons of cargo and were used extensively throughout the war for special ops missions: They destroyed an oil depot by gun fire; shelled an enemy airfield diverting attention away from a U S mini-wolf pack thus enabling it to exit the sea of Japan; invaded an enemy held island while destroying it’s garrison by naval gunfire; Raided Maikin island with Marines and supported raid with gun fire while sinking 2 ships in the lagoon again by gun fire; landed scouts in the Aleutians; inserted coast watchers; evacuated VIPs, civilians and POWs; recon missions; life guard duty; re-supplied Philippine rebels; as well as destroying enemy shipping.

So I ask this question again:

What type of gameplay do the devolpers have in mind that would exclude these boats?

PS.
Counting all U.S. WW II subs:

Narwhal is tied for second in warpatrols at 15 and Nautilus with 14 war patrols is tied for third.

The Argonaut and Narwhal classes are the only class subs in WWII to earn a battle star for every patrol they went out on.

I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by hyperion2206

I guess the type of gameplay the DEVs have in mind is attacking convoys or task forces and let's face it: the Nautilus and her sisters are just too big to do such job in shallow water (where most of the action will take place I assume). Another thing is that the Narwhal and the Nautilus were mainly used to land marines and the Argonaut cast out mines. I guess these fields of operations are not included.

The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

The Argonaut was lost along with her entire compliment of 105 sailors attacking an enemy convoy (the fate of a few dozen fleet boats too). Also the Argonaut’s mine laying equipment had been removed to make room for cargo and troops.

The Narwhal battled not one but two patrol craft on the surface and won.

The Nautilus executed an attack on the carrier Kaga at the battle of Midway.

I believe you can consider this attacking a Task Force:

"At 0755, 4 June, while approaching the northern boundary of her patrol area near Midway, she sighted masts on the horizon. Japanese planes sighted the submarine at the same time and began strafing. After diving to 100 feet, she continued observation. At 0800, a formation of four enemy ships was sighted: 1 battleship and 3 cruisers. Within minutes the submarine was again sighted from the air and bombs began to fall. Two of the cruisers attempted to close for a kill and nine depth charges were dropped at a distance of about 1000 yards.

When the attack ceased, Nautilus planed up to periscope depth. Ships surrounded her. Sighting on the battleship, she fired #2 tube, #1 misfiring. One of the cruisers immediately headed for the boat, which dove to 150 feet to wait out the depth charge attack (0830). At 0846, periscope depth was again ordered. The battleship and two of the cruisers were now out of range; but, echo ranging by the third appeared to be too accurate for comfort. At 0900, the periscope was raised again and an aircraft carrier was sighted. Nautilus changed course to close for an attack. The enemy cruiser followed suit and at 0918 attacked with 6 depth charges.

By 0955 echo ranging ceased and Nautilus raised her periscope. The carrier, her escorts and the attacking cruiser had disappeared. At 1253, damaged carrier Kaga (initially misidentified as Soryu) with two escorts was sighted. An hour later SS-168 had moved into attack position. Between 1359 and 1405 she fired 3 torpedoes at the carrier, then less than 3000 yards away. Flames appeared along the length of the ship as the first “fish” hit – later evidence suggests the hit failed to explode – and the skeleton fire-fighting crew which had been on board the carrier began going over the side. Nautilus went to 300 feet as a prolonged depth charge attack commenced. At 1610, the submarine rose to periscope depth. The carrier, afire her entire length, had been abandoned. At 1941, Nautilus resumed her patrol pattern, having expended five torpedoes and survived 42 depth charges."

Look at the developers clip and you will see marines modeled.

BTW: You have to get in close where the water is shallow to engage shore installations and land troops.

Draft of the Nautilus/Narwhal: 15’ 9”
Draft of the Gato class fleet boat: 19’ 3”

1. The water around Midway is DEEP, so there it was safeer to attack a TF.
2. I've seen the Marines on board a sub, but I didn't read that the player has to conduct such raids. Until I hear that I think that is just eye-candy.

I still firmly believe that we have to attack shipping in shallow water and the V-class is just too big and clumsy to evade escorts in these waters.