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09-19-21, 03:45 PM | #46 |
Soaring
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^ NATO with or NATO without the US and UK...?
The issue is money, and numbers of platforms. Also, differences in national mentalities. Just compare the public's attitude towards the military in the US, and in Germany. Black and White. Applaus there, ignoring the army, if not even looking down on it here. German fighters mostly are grounded, due to technical reasons. Those that could fly, do not all fly , because of squadrons being unable to crew them all: not enough pilots. And the pilots that do fly, due to financial restrictions cannot log as many training hours in mid-air as they should, must and need. Thats how it was at least untol three or four years ago. Attitude: I see as huge lack of warrior mentality and fighting spirit in many European armies, and especially the Germans. This sounds too unreal? No, it has serious consequences. The failing of the Dutch at Srebrenica is an example, I say. Intellectually many excuses have been given why it was "not possible" to stop the Serbs. Another mindset would have fought nevertheless, despite the odds, knpwing that the politcla fallout of a Serbian attack on a NATO contingent could have had devastating consequences for the Serbs - if only the political will would have materialised. Political lacking will also is an issue. I list three books that together illustrate and paint a picture of what I am after (all titles are Links to click on): Martin van Creveld: Pussycats. Why the rest keeps beating the West and what can be done about it. 2016 Martin van Creveld: The Culture of War. 2008 John Keegan: A History of Warfare. 1993 And for those being interested in the matter from different approach way: Musashi' Book of Five Rings (Go Rin no Sho). Its even worse. Not only can we not fight anymore - we do not even see why we should want to be able to fight and defend ourselves.
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Last edited by Skybird; 09-19-21 at 04:28 PM. |
09-19-21, 03:55 PM | #47 |
Fleet Admiral
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I don't know. Remember only that there are politicians here in Denmark and in Sweden who think an EU army would be better and stronger than NATO and USA or just the European part of NATO.
Been thinking when I read this-Could this be the end of NATO ? Edit It was due to Trumps saying about NATO who made these politicians to dig up this idea again. End edit Markus
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My little lovely female cat Last edited by mapuc; 09-19-21 at 04:27 PM. |
09-19-21, 05:07 PM | #48 |
Soaring
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The vaining of Americna interest for NATO and Europe already started visibly under Obama. Many Europoliticians just preferred to pretend that they did not see it. And maybe they didn't, how should I know. I think it was clearly visible.
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09-19-21, 08:30 PM | #49 | |
Ocean Warrior
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I can speculate with the best of them, so why not have Australia borrow Akulas and Sierras from Russia? Its already been done by India, Russia is everyone's pal and they need the money. Or, why not cut out all of the middlemen and have China build the subs? This takes care of the "stronger partnership" angle and brings more stability to the Indo-pacific region. I'm sure China could build a great shipyard in Oz that hires the locals. |
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09-19-21, 10:04 PM | #50 | |
CINC Pacific Fleet
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Quote:
Now wait a minute, that's not a bad idea!!
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09-20-21, 06:46 AM | #51 |
Grey Wolf
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https://newsline.news/australian-sub...ove-for-paris/
(we don't need vaseline...) Froggies don't like roosbeefs, we prefer Snails.... In French Forums majority of people wants to leave nato, and Macron speaks about that, and he thinks about an European Alliance too, but our national powder is like a weathercock and Pinocchio.....Personnaly I will vote for "MARINE" Le Pen
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\"Le Triomphant\" listens you ! Last edited by Exocet25fr; 09-20-21 at 07:36 AM. |
09-20-21, 07:08 AM | #52 | |
Soaring
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I had not expected that a German mainstrema national newspapers would slam the French and - quote - "drama queen" Macron so mercilessly over the mess they brought themselves into.
https://translate.google.com/transla.../27627196.html Quote:
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09-20-21, 07:11 AM | #53 | |
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https://translate.google.com/transla.../27623422.html
Quote:
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09-20-21, 07:15 AM | #54 | |
Chief of the Boat
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09-20-21, 02:16 PM | #55 |
Dipped Squirrel Operative
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09-20-21, 02:28 PM | #56 |
Fleet Admiral
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???? Why should Skybirds comment be the dumbest ????
Without USA, NATO in Europe would not have much of a chance if Russia decide to invade Europe. Markus
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My little lovely female cat |
09-20-21, 02:34 PM | #57 |
Dipped Squirrel Operative
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Europe is no unified "state", it is 27 sovereign countries.
If some of those act in Africa, or the middle East, or near China the uproar is big, "how can/should/dare they?!" On the other hand the same people demand that Europe grows together and takes its future into its own hands. At the same time denying Europe an own army able to achieve interests. But saying 24/7 that Europe should have one. Complaining against everything with the wind changes is not productive. How about making up your mind? There is no goal or target that can be achieved if Europe goes on like before in this deteriorating transatlantic relationship. Sykybird can make fun all he wants about lacking the will and tenacity, there are enough people who will do this job, just not possible in the ridiculous environment in which "allies" do not ask other "allies" acting alone without any information beforehand; and then some oh so special ally pretend you can have your cake and eat it. I am still astonished that the UK does not realize how it has been snubbed by the US but hey, special reationship. Keep on dreaming. re Aukus, papers called a contract about a submarine deal have been signed between Australia and France. "contract, signed in 2016 with French company DCNS (now known as Naval Group) to build 12 Barracuda submarines for Australia" What does anyone think what happened in those five years? Does anyone think France gets the money and time back, are those boats in production? What happens to them?
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09-20-21, 02:43 PM | #58 | |
Dipped Squirrel Operative
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But theoretically what do you think would have happened in the Trump years IF Russia had taken action against Europe? Let's say just some smaller parts, and waiting again for the next opportunity? Since Russia and China ARE threats it is indeed high time to do something also in Europe, just NATO will not do. On the other hand, as posted before, why should Australia not buy or lease russian submarines like India does? Wouldn't THAT be something
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09-20-21, 02:52 PM | #59 |
Fleet Admiral
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Since the beginning of the 90's Europe has disarmed a lot. In Denmark and in Sweden many airfields have been shut down, harbour been closed, decrease in number of soldiers.
While Russia has, from what I remember, been rearmed it's military since end of the 90's. Russia is a lot stronger today than it was in the middle of the 90's. Back to discussing buying subs from USA and not France. I would if I was from France felt I had been spit on. But I'm not, so my feelings in this is neutral. Markus
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09-20-21, 03:05 PM | #60 |
Dipped Squirrel Operative
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So let's make it simple:
If nuclear deterrence does not work because Russia or China can have reasonable doubts if America and the UK would retaliate with a nuclear strike, what is this construction worth for anyway, for Europe?
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