1 month from Fallout 3 today!

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by GlobalExplorer

Could you please present concrete arguments why you think most people are romanticizing Fallout? I played it just some months ago and its gameplay and storywriting leave current RPGs look pretty superfluous, despite graphics of course.

Do you want studies and research papers on this psychological phenomenon? Contrary to popular conception memory is not a fixed unchanging thing. Our memories change and flow and get colored by us. Positive memories tend to be further enhanced (nostalgia) and colored as time passes, negative memories tend to also be negatively enhanced, made to be worse then it actually was. What I'm pointing out is that Fallout 1 and 2 were probably not quite as good as people remember (I'm not saying by any means it was a bad game, nor am I trying to point out any specific flaws. Personally I don't remember either game very well at all, I remember playing them but not much else.), and that this enhanced memory may be affecting our view of this new game. The venom/rabidness that one sees in discussions on the net about this game easily demonstrate that people are romanticizing the original Fallout to at least some degree.

If you don't know what I am talking about I contest that you have played Fallout a lot. Or have you ever gotten as far as to discover that combat in FO2 was strictly turn based, unusually well balanced and how it was requiring really intricate strategy? And how every gameplay decision made sense after you got a bit deeper into the game? That there were branching storylines with choice and consequence? Few games have ever come so close to perfection.

Like i said this isn't a remake. This is a new game played very differently then the original 2. So of course it wont be turn based (turn based does not go with first person very well and Bethesda wanted to go with the ability to play it as a FPS and still have some elements of turn based game play; I'm not a big fan of turn based combat, so I have no issue with their decision). As for the rest we will have to see when the game is released. You can't comment on the strategy elements, gameplay and storylines with out having played the game.

Originally Posted by Wolfehunter

See the thing about Bethesda is their DRMs are reasonable but games lately are bogus. EA have amazing games but DRMs are draconic. Both companies have problems.

With out getting on EAs back (I could, I really could. I don't entirely agree with your statement of EA having amazing games, but given my position here I'm not going to get into that) I will dissagree with that statement. I assume your comment is mainly aimed at Oblivion, and I have to say that I liked Oblivion and I still play it, I also liked Morrowind too, but for completely different reasons. Also I'm as old school a PC gamer as you can get (I go all the way back right to the beginning of home video gaming). However I don't think that Beth is perfect either (they certainly do have their faults, over hyping and unpolished games are 2 examples).

As for Diablo 3, I'm half looking forward to it, and half worried. Blizzard isn't the same company it was since WoW, and Diablo 3 is looking to be an almost complete rehash of diablo 2.

Lastly as for the indi companies, yes some of them produce some really nice and cool games (some are even free). But they can have their flaws as well. Simple fact of the matter is you can't have it both ways, you can't have realy awsome eyepoping graphics in a game with major depth and design, to do both would be way to costly and time consuming. Sacrifices must always be made.

Originally Posted by Wolfehunter

See the thing about Bethesda is their DRMs are reasonable but games lately are bogus. EA have amazing games but DRMs are draconic. Both companies have problems.

Both game companies suck imho.

They both like to throw out shoddy linear storyline games with no freedom.

As such; Indie, open source and freeware/donationware will always be better.

I mean look at dwarf fortress, the game is bloody free and the single developer makes a game so awesome that he was able to quit his day job because of all the donations he gets. Not only that but dwarf fortress is better then 97.2% of other games.

[Wolfehunter]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

With out getting on EAs back (I could, I really could. I don't entirely agree with your statement of EA having amazing games, but given my position here I'm not going to get into that) I will dissagree with that statement. I assume your comment is mainly aimed at Oblivion, and I have to say that I liked Oblivion and I still play it, I also liked Morrowind too, but for completely different reasons. Also I'm as old school a PC gamer as you can get (I go all the way back right to the beginning of home video gaming). However I don't think that Beth is perfect either (they certainly do have their faults, over hyping and unpolished games are 2 examples).

As for Diablo 3, I'm half looking forward to it, and half worried. Blizzard isn't the same company it was since WoW, and Diablo 3 is looking to be an almost complete rehash of diablo 2.

Lastly as for the indi companies, yes some of them produce some really nice and cool games (some are even free). But they can have their flaws as well. Simple fact of the matter is you can't have it both ways, you can't have realy awsome eyepoping graphics in a game with major depth and design, to do both would be way to costly and time consuming. Sacrifices must always be made.

NS I'm also and old time gamer since zork and space quest 4 colour version and kings quest.

I was very brief on the detials about beth an EA etc. There are alot of factors involved. Too much to write and too much sources to quote.

I like arena and daggerfall also Morrowind. Best beth has put out. Oblivion when it was in development I was so excited with all the reviews and promises. When I got it as soon as I left the sewer I started loosing interest. I'm sorry guys Oblivion is soo freaking boring. AI is a joke. Everything is repetitive.

I can understand arena and daggerfall even morrowind. Technologies wasn't there and still their a good game for the times.

My history with beth is long. They have changed since Pete took control.

Yes I know diablo 3 isn't like it was and thats ok. Blizzard has changed also years ago like you said since wow. But their trying to please there old fan base.

Will it work? Don't know.

EA there are war with piracy and they don't care about the colateral damage to the honest clients.

THQ is similar to EA.

I used to support Stardock untill central and now Impulse is forced to use to get updates. There is no other way to get game fixes.

Only company that I support now is Egosoft. They support there fanbase and work with the mod communities. I hope their lastest release TerranConflict will rock. Or That will be it for me with PC games for the uber companies.

GSC they screwed up CS big time. But some people got fired and now with new adimistration who knows...? They may redeem themselves..

Ubisoft which has and nice office near my town hehehe. So if they tick me off I know where to knock. They don't work with the mod community much.. Soo well you get the idea.

I don't care for graphics or super sound effect. For crying out loud I still play Starflight II one of my favorite games of all times aside with Fallout 1 & 2

[GlobalExplorer]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Do you want studies and research papers on this psychological phenomenon? Contrary to popular conception memory is not a fixed unchanging thing. Our memories change and flow and get colored by us. Positive memories tend to be further enhanced (nostalgia) and colored as time passes, negative memories tend to also be negatively enhanced, made to be worse then it actually was. What I'm pointing out is that Fallout 1 and 2 were probably not quite as good as people remember (I'm not saying by any means it was a bad game, nor am I trying to point out any specific flaws.

Hullooooo, I just said there are a lot of people still playing it, including myself! And these game still are the pinnacle in gameplay, especially Fallout 1 and Jagged Alliance 2. Nice try with your selective memory theory but it's a shot in the dark.

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Personally I don't remember either game very well at all, I remember playing them but not much else.)

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

I'm not a big fan of turn based combat, so I have no issue with their decision).

Couldn't have said it better myself, you don't know Fallout a lot!

[AJ!]

Too be honist wolfehunter at the end of the day it is only a computer game. I can see you take games quite seriously and that is fine but i think one thing you forget is many people just play games for fun. Many people arnt worried if it isnt like a old game with the same name and im positive most people dont care who makes the game. Subman has said originaly that he only wants a RPG, FPS and not a game which is true to a series that most casual gamers have never heard of

[Wolfehunter]

Originally Posted by AJ!

Too be honist wolfehunter at the end of the day it is only a computer game. I can see you take games quite seriously and that is fine but i think one thing you forget is many people just play games for fun. Many people arnt worried if it isnt like a old game with the same name and im positive most people dont care who makes the game. Subman has said originaly that he only wants a RPG, FPS and not a game which is true to a series that most casual gamers have never heard of

Your absolutely right.

I'm a hard core gamer. I know the average casual gamer don't care... Trust me I know.

I'm a minoraty. Small voice. Little fishy. :rotfl:

[AJ!]

Fair play :p. i wasnt expecting such a mature response :rotfl:

[NeonSamurai]

@Wolfehunter

I understand where your coming from and in many aspects I agree, I can also be a pretty hard core gamer and I generally prefer games with depth (I play Dwarf Fortress for example). But I can also accept more casual games and still enjoy them (especially when i get done modding the heck out of them for myself. Damn near every game I play I've done either light or extensive modding to, often using other peoples mods meshed in with my own.). As for Bethesda I also go pretty far back (Terminator series anyone?). Like all companies there are good and bad things to them, some have a lot more good then bad, others have a lot more bad then good (I love Egosoft, though I wanted to hurt them for initially putting !@$% starforce on X3 Reunion)


@GlobalExplorer

Ok first off, its not a personal theory. If I really wanted to, I could write a 2000+ word paper on the dynamics of whats going on from a psychological perspective with a full bibliography and sources. However I'm not going to as A) I doubt anyone here would really want to read it, and B) I don't have the time (or real interest) to bother.

Second I'm not talking about selective memory, that is something else (though it is related). Also having recently replayed the game does not necessarily eliminate the effects I'm talking about (sometimes it can but often it doesn't), the sense of nostalgia and other emotions/memories can still cloud/influence recent perception of something to varying degrees. But again this is only a slice of the full picture.

I am commenting on observed behavior (the use of language and intent in this case not physical behavior) and possible reasons for said behavior, in particular the heightened sensitivity to this particular game from certain segments of the community. This is not the only thing going on but does explain in part why there are such extreme views and such frothing hatred for a game no one has even played yet.

Last, my knowledge and memories of the original Fallout series are utterly irrelevant. We arn't discussing those games, we are talking about Fallout 3, which is a different and new game using the Fallout world. If this was a true remake I probably would not overly interested in the game (I also don't really agree with your opinion that Fallout and JA2 were pinnacles in gaming. For me none of them were particularly noteworthy other then being fairly solid games.). I also don't need to know squat about any of those games to be able to observe the behavioral (written) dynamics or comment on them (in fact technically that makes me a much better observer since I have no vested interest in it, and so lack that bias). So no it wasn't a shot in the dark as you put it, my observation is pretty accurate, but I wasn't offering a complete picture of the situation.


Anyhow all that said, I will again state that everyone here is entitled to their own opinions, and are free to express them provided they do so in a respectful and appropriate manner here. Flaming, baiting and personal attacks will not be tolerated, so keep that in mind (this isn't aimed at anyone in particular btw).

[GlobalExplorer]

A really interesting subject, it really is. Maybe we should continue that in the GF. However, must insist my personal account is an absolute antidote to your theory. I played Fallout 1 the first time in 2003, and that was a long time after I played (and enjoyed) Morrowind. Played straight through in a week, first time I did finish a game in years. I cannot be romanticizing because me playing the game at that time was already considered a freakish incident, when I showed it to friends the first time they were incredulous, but in spite of them being mostly hopeless graphic whores they were later on admitting that the difference in gameplay was noticeable.

Btw, good sport, but that lighthearted comment you made about JA2 would make you look quite an idiot at other places, just wanted to tell ya. One should not make such comments about one of the greatest games of all times without something big on one's sleeve. Bit like saying chess is a stupid game if you don't know the rules. The comparison to chess is not arbitrary but actually very fitting, that's the key to understanding JA2 and, to a lesser extent, the combat in Fallout.

Anyway, if we now all agree that Fallout 3 is not related to Fallout except the license and those ideas that Beth could fit into the Oblivion formula, I can let it rest. Feel I have said too much here already anyway.

[Wolfehunter]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

@Wolfehunter

I understand where your coming from and in many aspects I agree, I can also be a pretty hard core gamer and I generally prefer games with depth (I play Dwarf Fortress for example). But I can also accept more casual games and still enjoy them (especially when i get done modding the heck out of them for myself. Damn near every game I play I've done either light or extensive modding to, often using other peoples mods meshed in with my own.). As for Bethesda I also go pretty far back (Terminator series anyone?). Like all companies there are good and bad things to them, some have a lot more good then bad, others have a lot more bad then good (I love Egosoft, though I wanted to hurt them for initially putting !@$% starforce on X3 Reunion)

Yes I remember Terminator. My cousin showed it to me first before I bought it years ago. Was cool for its time.

X3 Reunion with the last few patches removed Starforce ages ago.

Its a big patch because they have added many extra content that was created by the mod community.

[NeonSamurai]

There is a loose relationship between fallout 1&2 and fallout 3, same world so to speak, and there is a fair amount borrowed from it, but other wise it's different game.

JA2 I'm not going to get into much. I didn't care for it a whole lot, but then I'm generally not a huge fan of turn based games. It wasn't a horrible game, but it certainly was not the pinnacle of gaming either and had its share of faults. If people want to think me an "idiot" for feeling that way then so be it, I honestly could care less (people who go around labeling others idiots for thinking differently are often the idiots themselves). You think its one of the greatest games of all times, that's your opinion and that's fine. I don't think that way as I'm sure do other people, and that's also fine.

Thinking that I can't play a game = I don't like the game is also false. I beat JA2, I've beat Fallout 1&2 when they came out too. I can play those sort of games just fine, I simply don't care for the genre.

As for you yourself romanticizing (not the word I would choose) the original Fallout games, you still may well be to a certain degree. I'm not spinning theory out of thin air here. Even if you actually are not, it still does not disprove what I am saying in general. Your previous memories and experiences are clouding your decisions on this game causing you to make absolute judgments on the game because it is not a cloned version of Fallout 1 and 2 with new graphics, its something else. But that's your prerogative.

Anyhow I've had enough debating this.

@Wolfehunter

Yep I knew about that patch, X3 Reunion is installed right now and I'm still playing it (i also modded the heck out of it).

[GlobalExplorer]

Everyone can go to their local gameshop and check what's the oldest game they have. Chances are high that it will be JA2, even CAOTD has slowly dissapeared but JA2 is still sold, after 10 years.

And as practically every argument has been presented by both camps, in the end why not check yourselves by playing Fallout and JA2? These games run fine on XP, cost next to nothing, and chances are you will be in for a surprise. You quickly adapt to the outdated graphics, it takes only a couple of hours and you won't notice any more.

[Wolfehunter]

I can't ever seem to enjoy a good flight similator because of the crapy joysticks... I've bought so many of them from so many companies and they never properly align or just go wacky. I hate that. I'm about to shoot a dude and If I get an area on the stick that is funky it all goes to hell.

Even with X3 Reunion I have trouble with it. I don't want any of that force feed back nonsense. Just a stable joystick that works perfectly....

Any suggestions.:hmm:

Don't say logitech... I've about all their main uber models in the last few years and there geting better but still get worse after a few flights.

Yes I re align them again before each game. Just encase.

[CaptHawkeye]

I love how people think you shouldn't buy Fallout 3 because it isn't "Fallout" enough. Ya know, no more things like sprites, top-down cameras, turn based combat, and other relics from the 90s that should stay dead.

[NeonSamurai]

Though I am looking forward to Fallout 3, and I generally don't much care for turn based combat (there are a few exceptions for me such as steel panthers and other similar tactical/strategic simulations). I can understand where people are coming from. Fallout 3 is a radical departure from Fallout 1&2 and there are those who aren't happy about it as they want effectively a remake of the originals (though I would bet most would be in the end unhappy even if it was a remake, remakes very rarely capture the feel and emotional quality of the original game).

I also don't think turn based combat is dead, in fact I think for larger scale operations it is the only way to effectively model combat, when your dealing with utterly brain dead units that can't even tie their own laces with out direct orders (sometimes in triplicate) from the player; this is one of those things that drives me crazy about most RTS games, the utter lack of anything but the most primitive form of unit AI. I will say though that turn based combat for me does not mesh well with RPG games. Also I will mention that turn based combat also has odd mechanics that don't exactly work in reality (like who ever acts first invariably suffers the most).


As for joysticks, well I am quite happy with my X-52 (non pro) for the price its a pretty darn good HOTAS stick so far (had it about 4 months now) its silky smooth on all axises and very precise. However Saitek sometimes has quality control problems and releases batches of defective sticks, so check it carefully before the return date expires. Also it can be very finicky about the USB power output of your system as the stick is on the upper limits of what USB can deliver power wise. If the X-52 is out of your price range, the Saitek cyborg is also very well rated (though harder to find now) but not quite as good of course as the X-52. I wouldn't recommend the aviator as its cheaper and flimsy.