Malaysian Airlines MH317

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

The thing though is as far as I am aware it couldn't have come from the Iranians, as they don't even have the SA-11 (Syria does though), and only Russia has the SA-17. The thing though is that Russia has been doing its damnedest to cloud the issue and point the finger everywhere else, including that report of theirs where they put the missile coming from a direction it couldn't possibly have come from, or the other theory Oberon mentioned. I think it is pretty damn certain Russia was quietly supplying the 'rebels', many of whom were likely Russian troops, which in part was to distract the public from their annexing the Crimea, though they probably hoped they could flip the rest of the Ukraine too via a civil war.

Now did Russia set up the jetliner shoot-down incident on purpose? Not very likely, though not impossible either. Lets be honest here, all of the superpowers have done some pretty awful things in the name of their regimes, be it the USA, Russia, France, etc., including pulling stunts like that with the hopes of framing the other side. But from the evidence available, the rocket was launched from the rebel side, and it would have come from Russia directly, as the rebels would not have started with such equipment (they pretty much materialized out of thin air), and no other country would have been in the position to get it into the Ukraine.

Otherwise I agree with Oberon's post.

That was a typo, meant to be Russian not Iranian. I don't doubt the rebels shot MH17 down by accident. I just don't think the missile system came from Russia shot it down then went back over the border. The rebels had these systems prior to the shoot down, they had used them against Ukrainian transports. Systems stolen from bases rebels had captured.

[ikalugin]

As a declaimer, I have used almaz-antey as interesting material to consider, especially as it disputes the missile orientation in regard to the aircraft by examining internal dammage paterns.
For example should the fragments be found in the passengers bodies or luggage, it would validate their theory.

RT was used as it was the readily availiable media that streamed the conference, I do not watch it, or any Russian TV channels for that matter otherwise. Maybe because I dont have a TV.

In the future, please criticise the arguments rather my humble person or the media I have used to present the material with.

I would write a detailed repply to any constructive arguments later.

Originally Posted by ikalugin

In the future, please criticise the arguments rather my humble person or the media I have used to present the material with.

Huh?

Yeah I do criticize this "media" (propaganda, actually) whenever someone brings it up.
You must be very well aware of what exactly RT is, so don't play dumb here.
From all the possible sources, you - the one who constantly defends his motherland on the virtual battlefield - uses RT as a source.

1+1 still equals 2 in my books, sorry.

[ikalugin]

Did RT in any way shape or form alter the original press conference footage? If no, how does the media used to provide video conference materials matter?

If you have arguments against the almaz antey materials themselves criticise them, not the media used, as otherwise you fall to a logical falacy of attacking the media, rather than the arguments presented in the conference.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

The report won't change much at this point.

Interesting that they also blamed Ukraine for not closing their airspace.

Sad, but true. The public opinion is already formed and the reports wont change it.

@NeonSamurai
First of all, you should watch the video, as it explains all of those things. Here I would attempt to explain the stated Almaz-Antey position, the way I understand it.

Almaz-Antey specifically states than 9M38 life, with all extension was set to 25 years, with the last missiles produced in 1986 this means that the last missiles in Russian inventory were taken out of service in 2011. Now, those missiles could have went elsewhere post 2011, but they were not in service by that point and were going through scrapping.

The impact from the alternative direction (the one considered within the Almaz-Antey theory) would provide same external dammage patern, but would also explain the way internal structure of the aircraft, namely the frames, as well the dammage to the engine.
To prove this theory and to disprove the common one (with head on missile approach) Almaz-Antey had conducted both simulations and life fire tests.

The experiment itself was made in a such way, that the position of the missile and the aircraft would create a result that is representative of the fragment's performance under moving conditions. The method of the experiment is explained in the video, please criticise it directly.

I hope you would now watch the video and make detailed and constructive criticism, rather than bashing the arguments, attacking the source rather than the arguments and using ad Nazium.

[XabbaRus]

What I find interesting about the whole coverage of the MH17 shoot down from the very beginning is the lack of official evidence concerning the supply of the Buk system from Russia to the rebel and back. I distinctly remember the US, I think it was Kerry state they had satellite images of the missile being fired, but they have never released them. The same concerning the Buk on the ground. All investigations that get quoted in the western press all seem to rely for a greater or lesser extent on bellingcat. He seems to be the go to boy now. Given I'd imagine the Ukrainian / Russian border is one of the most surveyed by recon says right now I'd be more happy to see their images rather than the geolocated stuff a former WoW player has come up with.

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I distinctly remember the US, I think it was Kerry state they had satellite images of the missile being fired, but they have never released them.

Well, American intelligence services...
They also found lots and lots of proof for all dem WMD in Iraq in 2002.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

Umm, the 9M317 is Russia's brand spanking new missile type for the Buk-2 launcher, there are no older versions

Ah...balls, I meant the 9M38. Too many numbers and letters.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Well, American intelligence services...
They also found lots and lots of proof for all dem WMD in Iraq in 2002.

Yes, but then they know exactly what WE do or write
Which can be an advantage, i recently crashed my hard drive and i wonder.. maybe if i shape a polite question...

[Betonov]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Ah...balls, I meant the 9M38. Too many numbers and letters.

I don't even know the difference between buk-1 and buk-2 except that buk-2 might be a newer model.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Betonov

I don't even know the difference between buk-1 and buk-2 except that buk-2 might be a newer model.

I believe the primary differences are in how they go boom and where they go boom.

[Betonov]

Ah, buk-1 goes boom in the air and buk-2 goes boom somewhere in the air

[Frömmler Vogel]

Despite the denials of the rebels and Russia, the fact remains that the rebels claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane in the hour or do immediately after the crash and only when the identity of the aircraft was realised was this claim retracted and is now being decried as a fake by the rebel leaders.

Additionally the constant interference running by the Russians on this and the number of times their story has changed just add to the suspicion of involvement, even if it was simply a misidentified target that caused this sorry mess.

I'm seeing what looks like a duck, what sounds like a duck and most likely is a duck. Sorry Donetsk, but you're denials seem hollow.

Ukraine's pro-Russian rebels reject Dutch MH17 report - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34530906

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Frömmler Vogel

Despite the denials of the rebels and Russia, the fact remains that the rebels claimed to have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane in the hour or do immediately after the crash and only when the identity of the aircraft was realised was this claim retracted and is now being decried as a fake by the rebel leaders.

Additionally the constant interference running by the Russians on this and the number of times their story has changed just add to the suspicion of involvement, even if it was simply a misidentified target that caused this sorry mess.

I'm seeing what looks like a duck, what sounds like a duck and most likely is a duck. Sorry Donetsk, but you're denials seem hollow.

Ukraine's pro-Russian rebels reject Dutch MH17 report - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34530906

This "fact" is actually, again, false, because the so called rebel reports came from a facebook fanpage, ie not actual rebels but pro rebel groups on the internet.

What actual interference did we conduct? We have provided all the required materials, regarding the possible BUK rounds used, as well their warheads.

[XabbaRus]

I think Russia is trying to extricate itself from the situation. The shoot down and support of the rebels is an extreme embarrassment so they are trying to cover themselves. I'm sure the Kremlin know the rebels shot it down, I think it is the accusation of Russia supplying the Buk in question that has caused the various stories. I stand by the opinion it was a stolen Buk. The problem though was the likes of Strelkov and others connected to the Kremlin were on the scene. I wonder if there hadn't been this accusation if Russia's reaction would have been different. I'm wondering if there is going to be a few deals cut soon regarding Syria and the Ukraine situation.

Seriously though I think Yatsenyuk should shut up.