Are there any free modelling applications?

A version of S3D released only to some has the ability
to view and edit the zones I'm told.

And a zone editor by Ref released only to a few will do it also.

Both programs are mostly Alpha versions so not released to the general population at this time.

I've also heard the NYGM team has something also.
That is sheer rumor as far as I know.
I'll not pretend to have any facts on that.

I do use Ref's Zone Editor.
I've also asked him to release it as is.
It's the best out there that I have seen.

Ref, in my opinion, has created a fantastic tool for doing zone work.
It is a bit rough until you understand it and work with it.
But it is a masterpiece of programming for SH3 and SH4.

And it's a old program as far as how long it's been around.
If Ref ever releases it?
I'd be more then happy to handle the user support for it.

Here's what the boxes and spheres look like.

So as it stands theres nothing available at the moment i can use?

Actually as the post has progressed the issue seems to have become a little clouded, so here goes.

Spheres were mentioned ( just by way of explanation really) but i don't need to touch them, they'll already have the right settings and positioning for the zones they're in or linked to.
I wouldn't need to alter any zone dimensions, just alter some zone types according to their armour/flotability/critical chance/hitpoint settings.

For example, VonDos's Glorious takes terrific amounts of damage, but keeps going like an express train and won't list to either side until her hitpoints are exceeded and she'll then sink quickly.

Reducing her hull armour from 96.0 to 70-75 helped a bit, but not enough.
She can be sunk a bit sooner, but still won't list or stop till she's at sinking point.

I think it's because she's too bouyant, so engine rooms don't flood and even if one flotation area (zone) floods, the other zones keep her sailing straight and level.
I've spoken to VonDos about modding the Glorious's sinking behaviour and he's given me the thumbs up for it.

By contrast, the other carriers armour levels were increased from 35 to 70-75, which made them a bit tougher, but they still list too easily/quickly, props stop and they're dead in the water fairly quick.

The idea is to make them tough old birds, which they were, and put up a fight, which they would.
But they weren't battleships, and were armed with lightwieght firepower, except for the Graf Zeppelin, which was designed to double up as a commerce raider and was accidentally equipped with twice as many light cruiser guns as intended.

But . . .

So i want to get them to be reasonably impervious to destroyer fire (small calibre, David and Goliath job), but increasingly susceptible to larger calibre guns, as they would have been in R/L.
To do that i need to get the flotability settings right, so i need to see where those zones are, and tweak them from the list of types in the zones.cfg, together with the right settings for hull, engine room, ammo/fuel armour levels, to achieve the right (and consistent) effects.

Looks like i'll have to do it on paper from the zone co-ordinates , or leave them as is until the apps you mention become available

Thanks for the info though

Edit:

That DOES look like a cool tool and the zones and spheres appear almost exactly how i visualised them, except the spheres are spherical instead of cylindrical ( might be in the name lol).
In my defence, i was just going from the x,y and z limits and radius (cringe)

Well,
Spheres are spheres after all.


I'll need to re-read your posts in this thread
before I define things a bit better for you.

You are on the right track though.
The zone stuff is a touchy area.

It takes a lot of time to understand them and work them.
Even haveing a visual editor is pretty much useless
if you don't understand the basics.

I'm the classic example of that!
GWX 2 had my ASWT that we needed to release a patch for.
Pretty shameful considering I had the Visual Tool!

But I did not understand the zones and such at that time.
I took the time to learn and improved my approach to zone work.
I studied what VonHelshing did.
I saw what he did and follow his work.

I'm not saying others damage models are wrong.
I just prefer VonHelshings approach.

VonHelshing is a name i've not heard of before, in the modding world.
He's not in the captains roster either, so finding his approach to zone work may take some time.
I've gone back to the beginning with VonDos's Glorious, because i butchered the back up files while testing and felt i was missing something, because i couldn't remember what the original settings were, having made so many alterations.

I found out i'd actually increased the bouyancy of a set of zones instead of reducing them, because i didn't understand whether greater critical chance and/or flotability settings for the zones in the zones.cfg, made the model more or less bouyant, and i'd gone the wrong way.

( changed 109's to 165's)

I'm still a bit confused because i can't find where an armour level of -1 is defined for whatever zone type i'm experimenting with, and taking in to account armour levels, flotability, critical chance, flooding times, crash depths and multipliers, the only way to test one zone type for an area compared to another is by trying it.

I could do with an explanation of those parameters values and effects from someone that understands them really, cos theres nothing in the .cfg file to explain them, or anywhere else that i know of.

It's a fine balance, but without understanding every parameters effects on a zone i'm struggling to get things even near right, tbh

I can work out where the zones are easily enough, just from the co-ordinates, but even after i've located their function and position, i don't get the same reaction to the same zone settings for the same areas, on different ships.
And just one out of balance zone setting will completely transform a ships behaviour.

Any info would be more than welcome

Useing a hex editor,
open SH3Collisions.act in the Silent Hunter III folder.
You can read explainations of the settings in there.


And VonHelshing is in the Captains roster.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=221184

Oh well, don't know how i missed him in the Captains roster, must have been having a bad hair day
Playing with a hex editor and .act files for the first time wasn't too rewarding either.
I found some legible text in the right hand column about 2/3 way down the file, but it's not exactly in the easily readable txt file layout, and didn't really tell me anything i hadn't already worked out. Just brief, disjointed descriptions.
I tried exporting it to Excel in txt format, i wonder if i've missed the way to make more text readable, or if that's all there is?
Apparently they're audio compressed files, so i guess the 16 bit binary code is not convertable as text, though maybe to WAV or something as audio.

Just to add insult to injury, the fan has packed up on the X-clio propeller case i bought 2 weeks ago to house all my computer bits, so i'll probably be spending the next couple of days dismantling and re-assembling my pc in the old case so i can send the case back to Scan computers.
Then doing it all again when they send me a fixed/new case.

Marvellous

I have most of the info in a text file somewhere.
With comments that help define those in the act files.
I'll dig it out for you.

It still takes hands on working of the zones to learn
how to set them all up on a unit.

That there is no guide for.
It's a matter of studying the exisiting damage models you like.

Then building your own till your happy with it.

The biggest change has been to my learning curve.

However just one zone change -WILL- transform a ships behaviour, and you're right, it's a tricky area thats taken time to understand.

I went back to the stock settings, drew every zones location on a piece of paper so i knew where they were, and tested different settings for compatible zones on the ships behaviour.
I've almost cracked it with all the big carriers, and the good news is that the Graf zep, Aquilla, Illustrious and Essex share the same zones and spheres.

Doesn't mean the Illustrious/Essex will react the same way exactly, but gives me a good start on them
The Glorious has a number of extra/different zones, and, being lower and wider, is inherantly more stable, but i've almost cracked it there too.

If i've figured it correctly, for a particular zone, multiplier applies to armour levels or hit points.
flotability: is a percentage in relation to bouyancy characteristics of zone
Hitpoints: is self explanatory
Destructable: self explanatory
Armour level: is obvious, unless it's -1 (linked to hull armour i think)
critical flotation: is a percentage of criticality to ship bouyancy, as opposed to just the zone
critical: determines whether zone flooding/destruction is definitely critical to ships total bouyancy
critical chance: is percentage probability of area flooding completely, or percentage of criticality to total bouyancy
flooding time: in seconds
cargo type: cargo, or not, in zone
crash depth: depth at which zone completely floods, or is destroyed.

I don't know for sure how accurate those explanations are, but in the absence of official definition, that's what they mean to me.
Seems to kind of work out in practise.

Edit:
In the case of the multiplier, it may have conditions to maximum values of other areas, so it could apply to critical chance, flotability, hitpoints or armour levels.
Basically the higher the multiplier, the tougher the zone, or the more critical it is.

I think

Just a correction to inaccurate information earlier in this post.

Spheres are collision areas for the ship model, and DO NOT control visual effects like fire and smoke.
Apologies to Sledgehammer, and anyone else who read that incorrect information, it was based on my limited knowledge at the time.
Work on the carrier mod has stopped.
I'm fed up drawing zones and spheres on pieces of paper for each ship to check sinking mechanics, armour effects, missing effects zones (on at least one carrier), in order to test and refine the results.

Shame really, i'd broke the back of it.

Maybe when i can view the zones i'll have another go in future.

[Anvart]

Not bad 3D editor ... Modo 401 SP1 ... not free ..., but you can find the full version copy for trying in the WWW ...





For interested subhunters:

http://content3.luxology.com/downloa..._SP1_win32.exe
http://content3.luxology.com/downloa..._SP1_win64.exe

http://content3.luxology.com/downloa...ontent_win.zip

http://content3.luxology.com/downloa...32.exe.torrent
http://content3.luxology.com/downloa...64.exe.torrent

http://content3.luxology.com/downloa...in.zip.torrent

Thanks Anvart, it was actually a 3D zone editor i was trying to find, i thought initially it might be included in a model editor.
Seems theres not one generally available with viewing capability similar to the way you can view a model.
Skywasjer was going to make a 3d viewable zone function for S3D Editor, but didn't get around to it.
I've just about done all the zone alterations for the big aircraft carriers in SH3 now anyway, but haven't figured out how to add a custom zone to the zone list (tried adding an index number and parameters but it doesn't work).
I also can't get the smoke effects to work ( without fire ), "SmokeLarge" is defined in the zones.cfg and it's index (182), but doesn't work in practise.
Similarly "SmokeSmall" and "SmokeMedium" are defined and parametered, but are not indexed.

I thought it was kind of cool to have smoke billowing out of a large shell hole in the side of a carrier, just above the water line, complete with one prop not working and a 10 degree list, but i can't finish the mod i was going to do without a new zone and working smoke ( without the fire ).

I don't think many people are interested in carrier fixes/changes anyway, but at least i've sorted them out for my own amusement.

I appreciate your effort to help though.
Thanks

[rs77]

Originally Posted by roadhogg

I don't think many people are interested in carrier fixes/changes anyway, but at least i've sorted them out for my own amusement.

people are interested in all kinds of fixes/changes that improve gameplay

I suppose that that there are not so many writing in your post because the subject is quite difficult and there is little knowledge about this. If your mod is working good, no CTD etc, than why not to release it ?

Because as i said in the above post it requires the addition of a new zone in the zones.cfg, for zones that surround the engines, and i've not been able to add the zone, and get the game to recognise it.

For testing purposes, i've modified an existing zone, but zones are used by many ships, so changing an existing zone may cause weird behaviour in another type of ship that uses the same zone.

Bear in mind that most of the carriers were somewhat top heavy, with a high centre of gravity.

With standard zones once they started listing it was either terminal, or the flotability/critical flotation/armour levels/flooding times balances were out of proportion to what was needed, so they listed too quickly, listed too much, didn't list at all, etc, etc.
Generally the standard zones were fine, for the carriers it was simply the zones around the engines ( the centre of the ship) that made all the difference.
Plus the smoke effects don't seem to work without fire.
I'm just repeating what i said in the above post here really.

If i can do it so i'm completely happy with it, and it has no possible detrimental effects on other ships, i'll release it.
If i can't, i won't.
So until i find out how to add the zone and get the effects working, the mod's stalled.
Simple

[Anvart]

Originally Posted by roadhogg

...
I also can't get the smoke effects to work ( without fire ), "SmokeLarge" is defined in the zones.cfg and it's index (182), but doesn't work in practise.
Similarly "SmokeSmall" and "SmokeMedium" are defined and parametered, but are not indexed.
...

I think ... as variant ...
At first ...
you must try to create root (separated) effects (as #smoke_small and #smoke_big) in particles.dat ...
and then to apply these effects in Zones.cfg to various damages ...
...
or no ... at first try to apply existing (in particles.dat) child effects #smoke_small/#smoke_big to various damages in Zones.cfg ...
or for experiment try to apply #funnel_smoke effect to various damages in Zones.cfg ...
... and if then make that is written above ...

Thanks Anvart.

In the particles .dat i found the Fire_small and Fire_big nodes.
Each had a sub section node called Smoke_small and Smoke_big.
I assume these sub nodes are the "children" of the main node (parent?).
There was no Fire_medium node and therefore no "child", Smoke_medium, which is the one i'm after.
I did find the Smoke_small_scalable child node tho.
I won't need to apply to damage percentages, because the effect zone is placed in the engine room, and will activate when it's armour rating is exceeded, once the engine room is penetrated.

It's made me realise that each index number needs a reference, or parent, node of some kind, somewhere, including any new flotation zones added to the zone index in the zones.cfg
Otherwise they won't be recognised.

I can't alter anything in the parameters for the smoke zones in the zones.cfg, in case it adversely affects any other "Effects" settings, so seperating the smoke zones from the fire zones doesn't seem possible. . . . . yet.

It's undoubtedly obvious to you , but try to bear in mind that before this attempt to mod the carriers, my knowledge rating for zones, modelling, hex editors, act. files, and anything else to do with game functions and mechanics, was absolute zero , other than a quickie on the german cruisers, which someone explained to me.

The zones.cfg mentions a "zone properties editor", but not it's location.
I get the awful feeling someones going to tell me it's the SH3controllers .act file, which i have to learn to edit with a hex editor
( not dared to look at it yet )

Oh well, back to the learning curve i suppose

Thanks again for the info

Edit:

rs77 . . i re-read my reply to your post earlier, and the tone of it left me wondering, which is especially not good considering i wrote it.

So just in case . .

thanks for your comments, they were obviously meant by way of encouragement
and hi