The all purpose terrorism thread featuring plenty of allah akbar

[August]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Roger that. I think it was self-evident, but since we are back to 1900 why not new wars, i mean let's enjoy patriotism, nationalism, isolation, and ignore science as long as we can.

There was nothing isolationist about Europe in 1900. Most of them had overseas empires by then and they hardly ignored science seeing as things like the airplane and automobile were invented or perfected in Europe during that period.

Europeans do seem to have a problem with patriotism and nationalism but I think that is more about them being unable to moderate those impulses than the impulses themselves. Like anything else they can be taken to extremes, they just need to learn to control it.

[Oberon]

Would rather not learn to control it through another World War.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Would rather not learn to control it through another World War.

Again it comes back to self control. I understand the pitfalls but a nation has to have some sense of patriotism and nationalism in order to survive. Otherwise it'll just splinter into factions.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

Again it comes back to self control. I understand the pitfalls but a nation has to have some sense of patriotism and nationalism in order to survive. Otherwise it'll just splinter into factions.

I think we've demonstrated over the past 4000 years that it doesn't work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icts_in_Europe

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Only because we were invaded by NAZI Germans, where Eastern Europe was a valid buffer area and where every effort was made to industrialise the area (including Baltics).
Why would we do the same again, unless there is a NATO invasion happening? Further more, where would we get the capability to invade non-Baltics states, for example Poland or Romania?

If anything Crimea (and Ukraine crisis in general) shows that... we would not invade Baltics. The factors here are simple:
- Crimea, unlike Baltics, has military significance and pro-Russian majority.
- Crimea was a one off operation, unlikely to be ever repeated (and thus preparing for simmilar scenarios is a dumb waste of resources)
- Eastern Ukraine was not annexed despite it's pro-Russian majority and industrial capacity.
- There is no military capability being built in the north-western axis, if anything that operational-strategic axis has much less military build up than, say, south-western operational-strategic axis.

p.s. on Syria - we are there, supporting the legitimate goverment of Syria. Again, it is a separate matter from the Baltics or Ukraine.
p.p.s. using a quote from the meme paper by Gerasimov is sort of amusing by itself.

Poland did not invade Russia, nor did Poland attack Germany first. Still Russia had no problem to annex half of Poland, and Hitler and Stalin were two psychopaths who indeed deserved each other since they were brothers in mind and used the same brutality to secure their grabs on power. Both countries planned to attack the other, the only question was who would get the drop on the other's attack first.

But Russia'S history of brute force to supress its own people as well as trying to expand reaches far beyond the second world war, it reaches centuries back earlier. The whole regime of the Tsars expresses that, the whole communist era, and the Stalinist tyranny anyway. And a majority of Russians seems to like it. Stalin is "in" again, and support for Putin as well as for a tough stance in foreign politics seem to rank high. The collapse of the USSR and the end of Russian reign in eastern Europe still is a sting in the self-understanding of many people. The dreaming of that past "glory" (paid for with economic misery and dictatorship) seems to serve as a drug helping to overlook the difficult economic status Russia is in now. Military pomp as a distraction from the depressing realities of contemporary ordinary life.

Stability, predictability look different.

[Skybird]

On Europe and the EU, the term "Europe" to me always implies(d) the plural. There is nothing like "one European identity". There nevwer was, that is a fiction of the elites, an obsession to justify their drive for uniformity with themselves leading the one unified collective from the top. The drive behind European innovation and invention was the need to be innovative, was competition, was survival. The local cultural differences within "Europe", are imense, and can be extremely diverse.

If anything, the Brusselian attempt to force all this diversity under one centralised hood with a continental planned economy and one almost feudal government, has led to enormous distortions, rifts, anger, animosity, even hostility. The Euro Union is a cataclysmic disaster. The EU model after 1990 is a failure. We have reached a state where the EU as we know it know could collapse and turn into a thing of th epast as fast as the collapse of the sovjet Union surprised and overrolled us, and German reunification came upon us and left us breathless due to its pace. The situation has become unpredictable - and everything now seems to be possible, for more years of stagnnation and delcine, to sudden, violent collapse. I expect this phase of uncertainty to last for another decade or so - if things do not blow up earlier. In this time, things will not have a chance to turn for the better, but always will turn for the worse.

I said it before, and I stick to it: so often the cause of peace and living-together would be so much better served if we would not fall to ideologies demanding us to forcing the other and everybody else to be all like one and the same, but if we would accept differences, and leave them as that: being differences.

That is called diversity.

Regarding Europe role on the world stage, either way we simply have to accept that the great times of Europe, the centuries of shine and glory, are over. We must stop claiming it our mission to "Europeanise" the world and gift it with our cultural "enrichments". We have enough to do in our own home, and we hardly can manage the problems we already have in there. Being militarily toothless and even unwilling to defend ourselves, we want to mess with al the world and make it our mission to become the savior for all the evils and lows and sufferings around the globe...?

Good luck with that.

[ikalugin]

I guess I really shouldn't promote further derailment.

[August]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I think we've demonstrated over the past 4000 years that it doesn't work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...icts_in_Europe

Well neither do multi-cultural societies (by and large) yet that didn't stop you folks from jumping into it with both feet. I hope I'm wrong but I think without at least some sense of national pride and commitment you won't withstand the massive changes in your societies that multiculturalism will create.

[Skybird]

Years after the last American MBT left Germany, they are now back. Today the first of some 80 M1 Abrams have unloaded from USS Resolve in the port of Bremerhaven, preparing to relocate much further to the East. They are part of a 4000 men brigade the US is stationing in the Baltic states and Poland in reaction to the increasing security concerns in NATO'S bordering territory to Russia. The troops will rotate every - now I forgot, every 90 days or 9 months. Probably the latter.


Almost feels like back in the 80s.

Well, almost.

P.S. For our American specialists: its the 3rd brigade, 4th Infantry Division, Fort Carson.

[yubba]

go look it up.. had another link.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by August

Well neither do multi-cultural societies (by and large) yet that didn't stop you folks from jumping into it with both feet. I hope I'm wrong but I think without at least some sense of national pride and commitment you won't withstand the massive changes in your societies that multiculturalism will create.

Something will probably survive, whether it's better or worse than now is up to history to decide. But it's just a shame that Europe can't band together for the betterment of its people, but then again, that's how it goes.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Years after the last American MBT left Germany, they are now back. Today the first of some 80 M1 Abrams have unloaded from USS Resolve in the port of Bremerhaven, preparing to relocate much further to the East. They are part of a 4000 men brigade the US is stationing in the Baltic states and Poland in reaction to the increasing security concerns in NATO'S bordering territory to Russia. The troops will rotate every - now I forgot, every 90 days or 9 months. Probably the latter.


Almost feels like back in the 80s.

Well, almost.

Needs moar Reforger.

[eddie]

Originally Posted by yubba

go look it up.. had another link.

In before Oberon!! Here's a link-

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/for...RJ4?li=BBnb7Kz

[ikalugin]

Amusingly enough we did not reinforce the forces postured against Baltics (or Poland for that matter, with Poland it is interesting - as only Kaliningrad borders Poland and we only station a token force there) to any significant degree in the past, we may need to do so now.

In fact the North-Western operaional-strategic axis has the lowest priority for forming new units or rearming existing units - for example the missile brigade in the area is going to be the last one to switch from Tochka-U to Iskander-M.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Amusingly enough we did not reinforce the forces postured against Baltics (or Poland for that matter, with Poland it is interesting - as only Kaliningrad borders Poland and we only station a token force there) to any significant degree in the past, we may need to do so now.

In fact the North-Western operaional-strategic axis has the lowest priority for forming new units or rearming existing units - for example the missile brigade in the area is going to be the last one to switch from Tochka-U to Iskander-M.

And that's why only token NATO forces are deployed. 4,000 men and 80 MBT´s certainly wouldn't stop a Russian invasion. This is just to keep the eastern NATO members happy and isn't nearly enough to make Russia feel threatened and peed off.