Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The prospects for Ukraine are becoming increasingly bleak. And they know it. Except for Zelensky, who doesn't want to believe it.


https://www-fr-de.translate.goog/pol..._x_tr_pto=wapp

This does not mean that Ukrainians are preparing to give up the fight. Despite calls from certain circles to end the war by trading “land for peace,” no one offering up such abstract ideas has adequately explained how any sort of signed document could satisfy the aggressor. In this conflict: a Kremlin regime that appears as determined as ever to annihilate Ukrainian statehood, regardless of the cost to its own subjects’ security and well-being Ukrainians are not ignorant of the fact that their choice is not between war and peace, but between war and Bucha. And yet, their war effort is not aided by ignoring the serious shortcomings in the provision of Western aid, nor by ignoring the Zelenskyy administration’s failures to investigate ongoing instances of corruption, nor by ignoring the growing dissatisfaction of soldiers preparing to spend a second winter in a trench while their friends back home dodge recruiting officers If Ukraine is to prevail in its struggle for national survival, it will require significantly more foreign aid—both financial and material. However, with martial law likely to postpone democratic elections in Ukraine for as long as the fighting continues, outside political pressure remains the best available means for guaranteeing that the Zelenskyy government puts those aid dollars to the best possible use. @shustry's message may not have come as welcome news to cheerleaders of Ukraine located thousands of miles away from the nearest Russian minefield, but under the circumstances, more articles like his are going to be necessary in order to ensure that the Ukrainians doing the fighting—both on the battlefield and in civil society—receive the full measure of support from their servants of the people back in Kyiv. https://twitter.com/michael_wasiura/...03913603715217

Zelenskyy's character is a reflection of the people of Ukraine. Their resilience and stubbornness to fight even when the odds are against them is what pushes them to stay in the war same as they did in their Revolution of Dignity they will never give up their freedom they rather die for it, there is no choice for him Zelenskyy is no autocratic leader that can end this that some are not pleased with him is more politics they can solve this by democratic means. Ukraine has not lost this war because an offensive did not go according to the plans, Russia has lost more offensives in this war and is still losing. At some point in time, every war end at the negotiation table, but this will not mean Ukraine is lost.

Originally Posted by Churchill

I have thought carefully in these last days whether it was part of my duty to consider entering into negotiations with That Man (Hitler). But it was idle to think that, if we tried to make peace now, we should get better terms than if we fought it out. The Germans would demand our – that would be called disarmament – our naval bases, and much else. We should become a slave state, though a British Government which would be Hitler's puppet would be set up – under Mosley or some such person. And where should we be at the end of all that? On the other side, we have immense reserves and advantages. And I am convinced that every one of you would rise up and tear me down from my place if I were for one moment to contemplate parley or surrender. If this long island story of ours is to end at last, let it end only when each one of us lies choking in his own blood upon the ground.

Originally Posted by Churchill

There occurred a demonstration which considered te character of the gathering – twenty-five experienced politicians and Parliament men, who represented all the different points of view, whether right or wrong, before the war – surprised me. Quite a number seemed to jump up from the table and come running to my chair, shouting and patting me on the back. There is no doubt that had I at this juncture faltered at all in the leading of the nation I should have been hurled out of office. I was sure that every Minister was ready to be killed quite soon, and have all his family and possessions destroyed, rather than give in. In this they represented the House of Commons and almost all the people.

[mapuc]

Every war ends at the negotiation table.

True and in this case it has to be a negotiation by terms of surrender for the Russians military.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Every war ends at the negotiation table.

True and in this case it has to be a negotiation by terms of surrender for the Russians military.

I cannot see that. Russia holds up it strategic goals. They have no reason to feel defeated or wanting to surrender. Time is on their side. Zelushnyji recently revealed that he has no illusions on that anymore. What he in principle said without explicitly putting it into words is that if no miracle happens and support from the west radically goes up, Ukraine is loosing the war to Russia's numerical superiority in reserves, people, industry size. For the very reasons that Colonel Reisner explains since over one year, and that I nag about, too. Zelushnji did what he could before and during this war, and he really showed some military and organisational and operational genius. But even he cooks his coffee just with normal water only.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I cannot see that. Russia holds up it strategic goals. They have no reason to feel defeated or wanting to surrender. Time is on their side. Zelushnyji recently revealed that he has no illusions on that anymore. What he in principle said without explicitly putting it into words is that if no miracle happens and support from the west radically goes up, Ukraine is loosing the war to Russia's numerical superiority in reserves, people, industry size. For the very reasons that Colonel Reisner explains since over one year, and that I nag about, too. Zelushnji did what he could before and during this war, and he really showed some military and organisational and operational genius. But even he cooks his coffee just with normal water only.

Roughly speaking, there are two variants, the first being a grand financial and industrial project, using the strength of Western economies to defeat Russian productive strength. The second is accelerated NATO membership for Ukraine as the only real guarantee to stop Russian attacks. Followed by accelerated EU membership. In doing so, Kyiv would then have to accept as West Germany did during the Cold War that occupied territory is temporarily lost.

Whether either of these variants is feasible in the foreseeable future is completely uncertain. It depends on how the war develops, and on what Ukraine wants. The country owes its survival to its own fighting spirit and will do anything not to be subjected to a cruel, nihilistic regime. With or without Western support. Plodding on without a viable strategic end goal is thus a real third variant. And a fourth scenario, Ukraine losing ground with crumbling Western support while more cities are reduced to ashes, also remains a possibility.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Roughly speaking, there are two variants, the first being a grand financial and industrial project, using the strength of Western economies to defeat Russian productive strength.

Unrealistic. Will not materialize. Europe already is split right now. And the trenches widen.

The second is accelerated NATO membership for Ukraine as the only real guarantee to stop Russian attacks.

You must be crazy if you mean that serious, thats like sending an official declaration of war from NATO to Russia, and it should be clear where this street leads to.

Followed by accelerated EU membership.

No, they must meet qualification criteria like everybody else, the EU has already troubles enough and cannot need a new member bringing additional problems into the block, not even mentioning the massive re-shifting of power balances form West to East . Membership yes - when they have met all the criteria that everybody else had to meet. That means accelerated membership only when they accelerated their meeting of said criteria first. No shortcuts.

We must not shoot ourselves in the foot just by meaning it too well with somebody else. We have taken illegitimate shortcuts already way too often in the EU, and see where it got us. Corrupted legal standards, mad ideological demands and general weakness towards the outside of the block.

In doing so, Kyiv would then have to accept as West Germany did during the Cold War that occupied territory is temporarily lost.

"Temporarily." Its the heart of their heavy industry and mines and much of their fertile grounds and corn treasury, and a total Russian surveillance of their air space and naval shipping lines. Its questionable they can survive economcially and financially without these regions. Not when needing to cope with the heavy human losses they have experienced in dead and migrated. There will be distortions in economic and social and psychological meanings that so far nobody seems to have imagined relastic. Call it a national trauma.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Unrealiostic. Will not materialize. Europe already is split right now.

Split? 2 countries of 28 are being difficult is not a majority the biggest European military complex is committed to this war they are of power than 2 former tiny USSR satellites.

Originally Posted by Skybird

You must be crazy if you mean that serious, thats like sending an official declaration of war from NATO to Russia, and it should be clear where this street leads to.

I am not crazy this is EU/NATO speaking I am also not so worried about Russia military of what I have seen in Ukraine you are really serious that Russia is capable of successful attack NATO where it can not gain any military win in Ukraine you are dreaming.

Originally Posted by Skybird

No, they must meet qualification criteria like everybody else, the EU has already troubles enough and cannot need a new member bringing additional problems into the block, not even mentioning the massive re-shifting of power balances form West to East . Membership yes - when they have met all the criteria that everybody else had to meet. That means accelerated membership only when they accelerated their meeting of said criteria first. No shortcuts.

We must not shoot ourselves in the foot just by meaning it too well with somebody else. We have taken illegitimate shortcuts already way too often in the EU, and see where it got us. Corrupted legal standards, mad ideological demands and general weakness towards the outside of the block.

I bet you in near future Ukraine and Moldavia gets a special membership kind of status it is the only way to stop Russia Ukraine belongs to our space not theirs this the way the EU wants it. "I am confident that you can achieve your ambitious goal of taking the historic decision to start the accession process this year" said EU Commission President von der Leyen in Ukraine parliament 4 November 2023. Ukraine makes “excellent progress” toward EU, Von der Leyen says in surprise visit to Kyiv

Originally Posted by Skybird

"Temporarily." Its the heart of their heavy industry and mines and much of their fertile grounds and corn treasury, and a total Russian surveillance of their air space and naval shipping lines. Its questionable they can survive economcially and financially without these regions. Not when needing to cope with the heavy human losses they have experienced in dead and migrated. There will be distortions in economic and social and psychological meanings that so far nobody seems to have imagined relastic. Call it a national trauma.

Ukraine has control of the water supply of these fertile grounds these heavy industry and mines are destroyed it will cost Russia much to rebuild what they have destroyed and fun fact Ukraine economy has grown despite the war think your doom economics clearly missed this. Their airspace and naval shipping will be secured by the west we're already giving them a navy, all of our older marine will end up in the Black Sea do not think we will not be doing this we have already done it before the invasion, and we already said we will send the naval support like we will send the planes. No matter what it cost, the pro Ukraine faction in Europe will deliver.

[Dargo]

The Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed that Ukrainian cruise missiles damaged a ship located in a shipyard in Kerch, a city in Russian-occupied Crimea, Russian state-controlled media reported on Nov. 4

Earlier tonight, Sergey Aksyonov, head of the illegal Russian occupation government in Ukraine's Crimea, wrote on Telegram that air defence was at work near a shipyard in the city of Kerch. Debris from one of the intercepted missiles fell onto one of the dry docks, Aksyonov added. There are no reported casualties. The Russian MOD later claimed that the Ukrainian Armed Forces launched a strike with 15 cruise missiles at a shipbuilding plant in Kerch. 13 cruise missiles were reportedly shot down by air defence, and a ship was damaged as a result of being hit by a missile.

Air Force Commander Mykola Oleshchuk also announced that Ukrainian forces targeted a Russian ship carrying Kalibr missiles in a strike on Russian-occupied Crimea. At the time of the announcement, Ukraine's Air Force was still waiting for official confirmation of the results. https://kyivindependent.com/update-u...hip-in-crimea/

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I cannot see that. Russia holds up it strategic goals. They have no reason to feel defeated or wanting to surrender. Time is on their side. Zelushnyji recently revealed that he has no illusions on that anymore. What he in principle said without explicitly putting it into words is that if no miracle happens and support from the west radically goes up, Ukraine is loosing the war to Russia's numerical superiority in reserves, people, industry size. For the very reasons that Colonel Reisner explains since over one year, and that I nag about, too. Zelushnji did what he could before and during this war, and he really showed some military and organisational and operational genius. But even he cooks his coffee just with normal water only.

I have a feeling that time is more on the Ukrainian side-They just have to continue to slaughter the Russian and demolish their equipment.

There will come a time where Russia accept a peace treaty and it will be under Ukrainians terms.

It will lead to full withdrawal from Ukraine and Crimea will be independent-A wish from the Crimean people.

Ukraine will not join Nato-Instead they will become special member.
Ukraine will join EU.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

[UglyMowgli]

Video of the cruise missile attack on the Russian frigate in Kerch harbor.

[Jimbuna]