[WIP] Lighthouses mod

[propbeanie]

Originally Posted by MLF

... There seems to be a lack of input/interest from elsewhere in the community...

Originally Posted by gap

... and hopefully there will be more interest around it

Just so you know, I for at least one, have been following this and a few other SHIII posts with keen interest, but especially this one... We have SH4 FotRSU reverse-engineers at the ready to beg, borrow and plead once you've "finalized" (is a mod ever ~really~ finished?)... This looks very nice. All should be commended. |;^) - I wish I had a little more time to noodle some in SH3 and help "test" this, but alas, I'm buried - "I’ve got my country’s 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Guilder to frame for it; I’m swamped."

P.S.:

[MLF]

Originally Posted by gap

I think you misunderstood my answer: I am into whichever suggestion might improve this mod, and I like very much your idea. Please point me to any sound effect that you think might be fit for it

BTW I still haven't found the old admiralty chart symbol for lights (pre-metric chart). I had a book, "Bay of Biscay Pilot" but it's been buried somewhere under all my childrens' Uni stuff Internet is not much help.

Originally Posted by gap

BTW: I have bad news regarding the wind-aligned spray particles. I have replaced our particle generators with one from SH5. It works, but after trying many settings and setting combinations, I couldn't get our particles to follow the in-game wind. I think the additional PG parameters introduced with SH5, are simply ignored by SHIII.

At this point, I guess that our only hope would be an hardcoded patch by our wizards: Stiebler, h.sie and the likes. While we wait for their magic, what should we do with our particles? Should we scrap the fake wind, or keep it? and if so, what wind direction should we set?

I think we should keep it. It may be an illusion, but from my tests I have the impression that when the game wind goes against the fake wind, the effect of the spray isn't as dramatic as when the game wind goes with the fake wind ie. the wind-blown spray goes further when the 2 winds are combined....? Is that possible or is it my imagination? I'll post screenshots later when I test Patch 10 (most likely tonight).

Originally Posted by gap

Kendras sent me a PM. He is in holidays like many other subsim comrades. I think in a couple of weeks the forum will be a more lively place. By then, the first release version of our lighthouse mod will be out, and hopefully there will be more interest around it

You are right of course . It's holiday time - I'll be off on mine next Tuesday Just had a down moment last night

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Just so you know, I for at least one, have been following this and a few other SHIII posts with keen interest, but especially this one...

Thanks propbeanie

Regards,

MLF

[gap]

Originally Posted by propbeanie

Just so you know, I for at least one, have been following this and a few other SHIII posts with keen interest, but especially this one... We have SH4 FotRSU reverse-engineers at the ready to beg, borrow and plead once you've "finalized" (is a mod ever ~really~ finished?)... This looks very nice. All should be commended. |;^) - I wish I had a little more time to noodle some in SH3 and help "test" this, but alas, I'm buried - "I’ve got my country’s 500th anniversary to plan, my wedding to arrange, my wife to murder and Guilder to frame for it; I’m swamped."

P.S.:

Thank you for your interest and encouragement propbeanie

As far as I am concerned, but I am pretty sure Kendras has no problem either, starting from now you and the other SHIV 'reverse-engineers' have full permissions granted on this mod. In fact, I wish the best parts of all the mods released so far for either of the SH games to be merged together one nice day, and to be adapted for all the games of the series

Originally Posted by MLF

BTW I still haven't found the old admiralty chart symbol for lights (pre-metric chart). I had a book, "Bay of Biscay Pilot" but it's been buried somewhere under all my childrens' Uni stuff Internet is not much help.

That would be a nice addition! Keep looking for it, please MLF

Originally Posted by MLF

I think we should keep it. It may be an illusion, but from my tests I have the impression that when the game wind goes against the fake wind, the effect of the spray isn't as dramatic as when the game wind goes with the fake wind ie. the wind-blown spray goes further when the 2 winds are combined....? Is that possible or is it my imagination?

If that was true, IF, we would be just one step away from solving the puzzle. What if we made the Wind X, Y and Z values extremely low, in particle generator's general settings, and we correspondingly increased the WindCoef value of each bitmap particle?

Should this last attempt fail, what would be the best wind direction for the "fixed wind"? A northerly wind maybe?

Originally Posted by MLF

I'll post screenshots later when I test Patch 10 (most likely tonight).

Let me know your thoughts on it

Originally Posted by MLF

You are right of course . It's holiday time - I'll be off on mine next Tuesday Just had a down moment last night

Poetic moment: may the firm and shining light of our lighthouses lead you and your family to the destination of your well deserved holidays, and elighten your way even during your darkest moments lol

Back to work now

[MLF]

Originally Posted by gap

If that was true, IF, we would be just one step away from solving the puzzle. What if we made the Wind X, Y and Z values extremely low, in particle generator's general settings, and we correspondingly increased the WindCoef value of each bitmap particle?

Should this last attempt fail, what would be the best wind direction for the "fixed wind"? A northerly wind maybe?

Haven't tried what you suggested here as I think, having started several missions, it varies so much I have to put it down to imagination.We need another opinion on this one, I think? See Screen shots below (I have my clouds back)
The hard line was still apparent with DepthBias set to 5, so increased to 6 and no line.
I will continue testing tomorrow as it's been a long day

Originally Posted by gap

Poetic moment: may the firm and shining light of our lighthouses lead you and your family to the destination of your well deserved holidays, and elighten your way even during your darkest moments lol

Back to work now

Thank you

regards,

MLF

[MLF]

Hi gap,

I've PM'd you.

Regards,

MLF

[gap]

Originally Posted by MLF

Haven't tried what you suggested here as I think, having started several missions, it varies so much I have to put it down to imagination...

I have tried that myself, but it didn't work: the one wind direction that those particles are subject to, is the one set in particle generator's settings

Originally Posted by MLF

The hard line was still apparent with DepthBias set to 5, so increased to 6 and no line.

Sometimes it works, some other times it doesn't

Originally Posted by MLF

Hi gap,

I've PM'd you.

Originally Posted by MLF

Hi Gap,

Thought I'd PM you with my findings on scale.
I took a screen shot of a type VIIC against La Plate. I imported it into MS Visio, and scaled it.
The height from W/L to top of the sub's conning tower is 4.2m
The height of La Plate real-life is 9.5m (Wikipedia)
However the in-game height of La Plate is 26m

https://www.mediafire.com/file/fbs61...La%20Plate.jpg

I hope you don't mind me answering your remark in public, but as usual my inbox is nearly full.

I know the Wikipedia article about La Plate, but I think it got its focal plane wrong. My model is base instead on data from The Lighthouse Directory, where it is stated:

focal plane 19 m (62 ft); nine very quick white flashes every 10 s. 26 m (85 ft) octagonal solid reinforced concrete tower with gallery but no lantern.

Our model's overall heigh is exactly 26m, measured from the bottom of the (semi-)submerged base to the top of the concrete tower, and its height a.s.l is about 19m. This is not considering the metal platform, which has been removed in recent years (the lantern having been subsequently moved to a much lower position than originally meant):

 

Model's proportions are base on several picture available on the web. Had I scaled the model based on the focal plane stated by Wikipedia, or had I considered the 19m figure as relative to the original lantern position, railings and ladders would have been too short/narrow. At the current scale, those elements look more or less in proportion with the current standars.

[MLF]

Originally Posted by gap

I have tried that myself, but it didn't work: the one wind direction that those particles are subject to, is the one set in particle generator's settings

unfortunately.

Originally Posted by gap

Sometimes it works, some other times it doesn't

I increased DepthBias to 20 and the effect was terrible. So put back to 6 and reasonably OK. It's very difficult to test and come to a certain conclusion on a base that changes each time the mission is loaded

Originally Posted by gap

Our model's overall heigh is exactly 26m, measured from the bottom of the (semi-)submerged base to the top of the concrete tower, and its height a.s.l is about 19m. This is not considering the metal platform, which has been removed in recent years (the lantern having been subsequently moved to a much lower position than originally meant):

Model's proportions are base on several picture available on the web. Had I scaled the model based on the focal plane stated by Wikipedia, or had I considered the 19m figure as relative to the original lantern position, railings and ladders would have been too short/narrow. At the current scale, those elements look more or less in proportion with the current standars.

I agree everything looks right with your scaling, and I was very surprised to learn from Wiki and other sites (http://www.jplours.fr/pointeduraz.htm) that it was only 9m high.Obviously missed off a 1 in their numbers
The photographs show that, compared with La Veille at 33m, your 19m would be much more accurate.
Very confusing though, hence my PM.

regards,

MLF

I read all your posts during my absence. Good work mates !

Originally Posted by gap

BTW, this mod is slowly turning into a storm simulation mod lol

Hehe, why not ?

 

Preparing Patch 11 with full explanations.

New main features :

 

- improved a bit the medium splash effect
- added a big splash effect (affected by fake wind)
- created a totally new concept to create foam around the rock

Here V12 with Patch 11 : http://www.mediafire.com/file/zid19a..._-_Patch_11.7z

Please don't care about materials.dat modified directly inside. When we are satisfied with the graphics effects, we will put the modifications in Lighthouse_FX.dat. Else, I have to reload the game after each modification I've made into this file, and it's a huge waste of time and patience ...

The medium and large splash effects' parameters could be a little randomized.

The large splash texture might be improved. Only the large splash is (and should be) affected by wind.

About the new foam effect, we have to replace the experimental texture, but the idea is there ...

About the Depth bias controller, we should always set it at zero, else it's useless (IMO) and there are side effects.

Good tests !

By the way, in order to have sea with huge waves, open data\scene.dat, go to Sky > EnvSim : Wind > WavesProperties > 3 > Scale, and change the values to : 15 - 0.8 - 15 - 1.

[MLF]

Initial tests with sea as set in scene.dat (date 03/02/2008).

The spray doesn't seem to follow the wind see screenshots (u-boat heading south).
Overall effect improving all the time though I really like the way the spray hangs in the air. Can you make the base of the spray denser, thinning out towards the top - a wave crashing, thrown into the air and caught by the wind, type of thing? All looks nice and wet though!
Like the concept behind the foam but in rough sea wouldn't see ripple effect I wouldn't have thought - wouldn't foam be the result of a crashing wave landing back in the sea?
Will test more later, increasing wave height as suggested but time to eat

regards,

MLF

[MLF]

Increased wave size as suggested, but no difference as far as initial findings.
I don't see any of the lines that gap and I were trying to eliminate with DepthBias,so you are right, methinks, re this controller.
All in all looking really good, but still missing the full fury of a storm IMO

Worst scene scenario:-
http://twistedsifter.com/videos/huge...ses-in-france/

The sea appears to wrap the lighthouse with a cloak, and reluctantly let it go, leaving behind a mist of regret - how poetic is that? Amazing what food does!!!!!

regards,

MLF

Salut MLF, merci d'avoir testé ce patch !

Originally Posted by MLF

The spray doesn't seem to follow the wind see screenshots (u-boat heading south).

The big spray follows only the 'fake' wind, which is always going from south to north.

Originally Posted by MLF

Can you make the base of the spray denser, thinning out towards the top - a wave crashing

Yes, I will try to do that.

Originally Posted by MLF

wouldn't foam be the result of a crashing wave landing back in the sea?

Our model should be this :

Originally Posted by MLF

All in all looking really good, but still missing the full fury of a storm IMO

Worst scene scenario:-
http://twistedsifter.com/videos/huge...ses-in-france/

Yeah, cool video ! I will try to copy the effect.

Originally Posted by MLF

The sea appears to wrap the lighthouse with a cloak, and reluctantly let it go, leaving behind a mist of regret - how poetic is that?

Not bad !

I wanted to save time by uploading patch 11. Now, here a more detailed answer to your discussions :

Originally Posted by gap

What I can do is making a third particle type, simulating vapourized water, to spawn with a certain delay, and to move further away from the splash following wind's direction. What do you think? Should I add this particle to both particle generators, or only to the one used for the highest waves?

Yes, it's a good idea. I made a big splash effect in patch 11, but with same texture used with medium splash (i don't like new textures very much). We might also use a white smoke texture. Now, I would like to add to it this vapourized water effect, but I didn't manage to create a nice one so far.

To answer your question, this new effect (vapourized water) should be added only with the generator used for the highest waves. Let me create this effect, I only need a correct texture for it (I will try with white smoke).

Originally Posted by gap

Tourelle de La Plate v12 - Patch 9

For this patch, I have added wind-driven spray to the highest waves. The texture used could be better, and there is still some space for improving the effect. ... I am curious to know what you think about it. Please don't hesitate giving me your criticism and any suggestion you migh have for making the overall effect to look better

Yes, a better texture is needed. More looking like vapors.

Originally Posted by gap

In any case, dynamic foam effect is definitely in our to-do list

Not the easiest thing to create. Please test patch 11, which contains a new method to create foam, with an 'experimental' texture. Once again, a nice texture is needed for it. May I ask you to create these textures, I know you're very skilled (among other things) in creating textures.

Originally Posted by MLF

I believe you have 8 placement nodes for the particle generation? What would be the effect of increasing these nodes, say to 10 or 12?

Originally Posted by gap

The particle generators would be closer together, thus creating a better effect, especially if seen from above. I don't think increasing the number of particle generators placed around the lighthouse would have a big impact on game fluidity, as the generators we have set are not so particle-intensive. Nonetheless, should we notice any performance hit, we can always reduce the number of particles per generator. If we decide to increase the number of PG placement nodes from 8 to 12, A reduction to about 2/3 of the original particles should be okay

With all the new particle generators we are creating, the number of placement nodes has a real inpact on game fluidity. I think we should go back to 8 nodes for the little La Plate beacon. Keep in mind that with La Vieille lighthouse, which is a much bigger object with its rock, we will have to add more than 8 placement nodes (or create a new effect with bigger particles to reduce this number of nodes). I'm searching for the minimum number of particles to have a correct effect.

Originally Posted by gap

If you mean the sharp edge where the spray particle lays over the tower, that's due to the particle being on a plane which is behind tower's 3D mesh in that point. Maybe we can fix that glitch by playing with the DepthBias parameter.

Originally Posted by gap

Depth bias makes two objects that are co-planar in the 3D space to look as if they were one in front of the other by adding a z-bias to one of them. z in this case is not the z (North/South) global axis, but the "depth" axis that the virtual camera is aligned with at any given moment.
The approximate radius of the lighthouse base is 5 meters; your tests demonstrate that the depth bias setting in SH particle generators is in meters and that positive values mean particles closer to the observer

Very interesting controller. This was the kind of effect I was searching for light halos to be always placed in front of the lantern. We should use it for this purpose.

Originally Posted by gap

I followed the whole discussion about wind direction and particles in SHIII, but matters in SH5 are slightly different. Particles that are supposed to be affected by real wind in SH5 files, have one or both of the features below:

- a parameterless GlobalWind controller attached to the same node as the particle generator;

- a GlobalWindCoef among particle generator's parameters, whose
description in Silent3ditor and Goblin Editor reads "Global/game wind coefficient (0=not affected by in-game wind)".

Neither of the above features is found in SHIII. I have already tried adding the GlobalWind controller to our splash effect but after running the test mission I couldn't see any difference. What I want to try next, is copying the settings of one of our particle generators into a SH5 particle generator with GlobalWindCoef set to a positive value, and see what happens. Chances of success are quite low though

Originally Posted by gap

BTW: I have bad news regarding the wind-aligned spray particles. I have replaced our particle generators with one from SH5. It works, but after trying many settings and setting combinations, I couldn't get our particles to follow the in-game wind. I think the additional PG parameters introduced with SH5, are simply ignored by SHIII.

At this point, I guess that our only hope would be an hardcoded patch by our wizards: Stiebler, h.sie and the likes. While we wait for their magic, what should we do with our particles? Should we scrap the fake wind, or keep it? and if so, what wind direction should we set?

Originally Posted by gap

If that was true, IF, we would be just one step away from solving the puzzle. What if we made the Wind X, Y and Z values extremely low, in particle generator's general settings, and we correspondingly increased the WindCoef value of each bitmap particle?

Should this last attempt fail, what would be the best wind direction for the "fixed wind"? A northerly wind maybe?

Let's give up. I don't think we will manage to make our particles to follow the wind. Of course, this would be a very nice addition, and could be used also for ships' funnel smoke. But it probably requires a hardcode modification. So, I suggest using this feature only for big splashes and vaporised water, with a fake wind going north.

Originally Posted by MLF

Is there any way of making the wave-splash sound change with the wind speed/ At 15m/s you cannot hear it, and I'm pretty sure, from my own experience, it would be close to a roar when close to the light house?

Originally Posted by gap

Please point me to any sound effect that you think might be fit for it

Yes, I agree on having a new and loudlier sound for very big splashes.

Originally Posted by gap

As far as I am concerned, but I am pretty sure Kendras has no problem either, starting from now you and the other SHIV 'reverse-engineers' have full permissions granted on this mod. In fact, I wish the best parts of all the mods released so far for either of the SH games to be merged together one nice day, and to be adapted for all the games of the series

Yes, permissions granted to adapt this mod to other SH series, but with full credits and non commercial use, as always.

Originally Posted by gap

Poetic moment: may the firm and shining light of our lighthouses lead you and your family to the destination of your well deserved holidays, and elighten your way even during your darkest moments