Single player upgrade

Onkel Neal · 06-27-16, 09:01 AM

If you were going to add single player user interface, would you add icons to the screen that set course, speed, depth?

Or icons that move you to the proper compartment to manually adjust the dials and levers?

How would you handle the balance, would you make single player UI an option only when there is just one player, or would it be available in cases where there are two players, three players?

danasan · 06-27-16, 09:25 AM

I'd make it a single player UI as an option only when there is just one player. Running around in the boat to adjust here and there while making an attack run might be a bit too much when you are all alone. If it is an option, you can still choose between running around or using icons to set speed etc., me thinks.

cherbert · 06-27-16, 01:43 PM

Make it so TheDarkWraith can mod it either way :-p

Chromatix · 06-27-16, 04:13 PM

I voted "Other" since my position on this is very nuanced. Bear in mind that I'm coming at this from a *primarily* single-player perspective, so I'm looking for the greatest immersion and utility in that mode and thinking less of PvP.

I'm in favour of a concept where each major function of the boat is handled by a crew, and players can take over a position from the AI crew. This implies that the AI crew should have realistically human performance in their handling of each position, so that a human player can perform better if skilled, and worse if unskilled.

A single player would necessarily take the commanding role (except perhaps for focused tutorial missions), and will be directly in charge of an attack. He should therefore have a very quick and easy way to give straightforward commands for the rest of the crew (AI or otherwise) to carry out, and for that purpose a set of UI icons similar to Silent Hunter's would make a lot of sense. These would set explicit goals for the crew to work towards, either by an explicit, realistic telegraph instrument (as for engine commands) or a virtual "bug" superimposed on the real one, backed up by a voice repeater.

Voice commands basically work for commanding players, but even this gets a bit cacophonic (without established military phraseology and discipline) and would probably prove unreliable for commanding AI crew.

When not in the attacking phase, a single player will often wish to attend to different stations himself, eg. listening to a sonar contact to verify or supplement the sonarman's analysis, or going over the charts with the navigator. Also, a multi-crewed boat may be shorthanded, requiring players to change stations regularly for maximum operational efficiency.

For this purpose, being able to walk around the sub step by step is sufficient, but potentially tedious. At the same time, adding the ability to teleport between stations instantly is a little too unrealistic. Instead, buttons which pathfind the player directly to an operating position at a normal pace for the situation (cruising, action, or silent) would probably work well, without causing a major imbalance.

But the quick command icons are the essential feature. I don't see any other way to reliably command an AI crew.

Gwenydd · 06-27-16, 04:24 PM

I would make all control inputs for all stations so they are mapped to either keyboard, directx, or analog inputs so they can be accessed from anywhere on the boat. This would allow for single player controls as well as mapping of physical controls used in physical simulator environments (as in the working replica type vii control room I'd like to build). As someone who has built and maintained professional flight simulator hardware/software environments for years and who wants to build a realistic simulated u-boat environment this would make my life significantly easier while at the same time provide for single player control of the boat. For sim environment builders it's essential to have ALL sim functions mappable to any input desired.

I would not use icons on screen for this at all, since it would be seamless with all inputs mapped.

Gwen

(the crazy flight sim/real aircraft/sub sim builder woman) =P

THE_MASK · 06-27-16, 04:50 PM

I have a desktop with 4gig ram graphics card .
22'' monitor
Keyboard
Mouse
I don't like key commands . I always use the GUI with SH5 .
cheers .

Cpt-Maxim · 06-27-16, 07:49 PM

I'm for what the devs talked about on June 7th & 14th Subsim chats..

1. Add AI players at every station initially as the sub spawns into game. The original player to create the sub is assumed to be captain at the start and has buttons to command the AI as needed. No teleporting.

2. As human crew are permitted to join, and walk to a station, the human may "relieve the AI player" to take over the station, but if human walks away, AI resumes the station with full animations "looking busy" but changing nothing until given the order from the captain.

3. If the sub can hold 6 humans eventually and all 6 humans are aboard, the AI players still populate the sub in positions that convey realism, even if it is just a bunk room or kitchen or doing maintenance - with other animations for silent running.

Also as Sober said above, no need for emotional conversations with AI or puzzle over solutions on whether or not to shoot the cook, as this game is designed for humans to play from different locations within the sub and interact with each other..

makman94 · 06-28-16, 12:49 AM

hello HMS Marulken devs,

for me, nothing can beat the 2d stations ui . I am looking forward to see detailed and ,as possible can be done, at simulator fuctionality stations at which the player can ACCURATELLY control the devices of each station.

for me the key for a succesive simulator is not the 3d parts but the sim itself on which the player will be able to use the devices with all their glory. the hydrophone room was a very huppy surprise for me as you made it. i saw in there more fuctions for this so 'sensitive' device of submarines and i would really like to have a 2d station for this (and for the periscope and for the radar) at which i will be able to accuratelly use the parts.

playing it only at 3d views was a 'torture' for me as i was unable to accuratelly control anything.everything was made at 'about' i wanted to make rather than where 'exactly' i wanted it to be made. very soon the fan starting fading away. Of course, i am sure that down the road you will fix all these but i see no reason not to include the 2d stations ui.(with accurate dials,devices...buttons...etc) . the one is not discarding the other.

and as the hard part is exactly the 3d stations ,you almost made it so i am really hoping that a polished 2d ui will not be a big deal for you.

as for the need of four people to play the game ,although is a very good idea and have very fan...etc , must NOT discard the option for a single player. As a single player , i must not have to run through stations all the time (this has no fan at all) and there the need of a very nice 2d ui to be applied.

Just my two cents , and wishing all the best to your efforts guys !
it is ,by far, the best i have seen after the sh2

THEBERBSTER · 06-28-16, 04:08 AM

Something different to SH3-4-5 where everything is done through icons would be a good alternative challenge and something totally different.
Peter

Onkel Neal · 06-28-16, 09:15 AM

makman, good to see your comments, your 2 cents are always for $100 around here

macjim · 07-01-16, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chromatix

I'm in favour of a concept where each major function of the boat is handled by a crew, and players can take over a position from the AI crew. This implies that the AI crew should have realistically human performance in their handling of each position, so that a human player can perform better if skilled, and worse if unskilled.
.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cpt-Maxim

1. Add AI players at every station initially as the sub spawns into game. The original player to create the sub is assumed to be captain at the start and has buttons to command the AI as needed.

2. As human crew are permitted to join, and walk to a station, the human may "relieve the AI player" to take over the station, but if human walks away, AI resumes the station with full animations "looking busy" but changing nothing until given the order from the captain.

3. If the sub can hold 6 humans eventually and all 6 humans are aboard, the AI players still populate the sub in positions that convey realism, even if it is just a bunk room or kitchen or doing maintenance - with other animations for silent running.

Also as Sober said above, no need for emotional conversations with AI or puzzle over solutions on whether or not to shoot the cook, as this game is designed for humans to play from different locations within the sub and interact with each other..

Quote:

Originally Posted by makman94

hello HMS Marulken devs,

for me, nothing can beat the 2d stations ui . I am looking forward to see detailed and ,as possible can be done, at simulator fuctionality stations at which the player can ACCURATELLY control the devices of each station.

for me the key for a succesive simulator is not the 3d parts but the sim itself on which the player will be able to use the devices with all their glory.
as for the need of four people to play the game ,although is a very good idea and have very fan...etc , must NOT discard the option for a single player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenydd

I would make all control inputs for all stations so they are mapped to either keyboard, directx, or analog inputs so they can be accessed from anywhere on the boat. This would allow for single player controls as well as mapping of physical controls used in physical simulator environments

I echo the appeal of these suggestions.
I voted "Other" ... for options ... and a win.

Gwen's idea of mapped input is great, because it is hidden and doesn't have to be used. Allowing players to customize the input (keystrokes, mouse input etc) is perfect.

If extra UI is implemented. Please please allow the player to turn it off in the options or with a toggle (keybinding) so we can enjoy the graphics as a realistic immersive experience. If a player chooses to run between stations we should let him/her.

I have no clue how much work it would be to code the suggestions of Chromatix and Maxim, but it sounds great. Having AI inside the sub in single player will help to create a realistic atmosphere. I don't mind being in an empty sub but the company would be nice. It will be nice provided I don't have to talk to them, puzzle over some interaction with them or watch a video clip repeatedly as the AI talk to me. The AI should be placeholders at a station. Communication from AI should be audio or text with the option to turn if off. It is very important to be able to turn off the AI communication. Hearing the same alert over and over can become very annoying.

My personal draw is what Makman describes. The ability to control a device accurately. Dangerous waters on steroids.

Choice and customization is built in to many very well made games. This creates appeal to a wider player base. To create a highly detailed game without extra control icons or teleporting may result in very immersive realistic environment that is desired by some hardcore elite fans. These fans will likely play the game for a very long time. Alternatively, creating a faster paced more convenient game with extra icons and or teleporting might encourage the more mainstream player to buy and play, but I suspect for a shorter period of time. Who knows. I don't mean to insult any hardcore sub sim fans as I'm sure there are many who will prefer the extra icons (and/or teleport) My point is; if you allow customization (and the option to turn off the extra icons or teleport) you will create a game that all can enjoy.

Pablo · 07-01-16, 09:37 PM

Hi!

For what it's worth, I think a single player interface is absolutely necessary since many of us won't be able to use multiplayer. I'm not sure about which positions a human player would find to be interesting - I suppose that would depend on whether the commander takes a hands-on role (e.g., using the UZO or periscopes personally) or a hands-off role (having the 1WO collect targeting data), but I assume the U-boat commander will be one of them.

If I assume that a single player is the U-boat commander, the commander (or other human officer) should be limited to things a commander would normally do, e.g., order the deck gun to be manned and direct which target the gun shoots at, but not aim the gun in first-person mode. With this in mind, I would provide the following commander's interfaces:

Tower watch (binoculars or Mk. I eyeball view)
Attack periscope
Search periscope
UZO
Hydrophone/sonar station
Radio operator / radar / radar warning indicator
Navigator (note the navigator was generally a warrant officer, not a commissioned officer)
First person Control Room ("Zentrale") view

I suggest that all positions be handled by AI crew unless a human player is present at that station. Whenever the "commander" gives an order, it goes to whichever entity (human or AI) is controlling it. It can be given via a 2D interface (e.g., icons) to humans or AI, or by voice to AI.

The question of whether you have voice actors echo the command for another human player to hear it, or whether you use voice recognition software for AI players, or both, is a cost trade-off for the developers.

Hope this helps!

Chromatix · 07-01-16, 11:55 PM

As a note on the "tower watch" position, it is essential that the player is able to move around there (as is presently possible in Marulken) to get a good view in any direction. Conversely, the field of view afforded by the UZO should be realistically limited by its position.

This was quite a serious problem in SH4, with the fleet boats' periscope sheers blocking a wide arc of the starboard quarter, and no way to move past it except by personally manning an aft-facing gun. But raise the binoculars or man the TBT, and the sheers and bridge crew magically became invisible!

crazygerbil · 07-06-16, 11:32 PM

All of the above.

Just put in all of the options so that it is easy for each player to change it.
Well, for non-PvP, at least. If you want, you can leave most of them not bound to anything by default.

For PvP, hmmm... maybe no single-player UI (U-boat Interface

) for PvP? Maybe that would lower the player-base too much, hmm... something to think about.

But yeah, I would err on the side of giving the end user more control over how to control things.

Oubaas · 07-12-16, 02:00 PM

I would love a single player version of this title. I live in a very rural area and my Internet connection is crap, so single player is the only way to go for me. If they include single player, I'm a definite, immediate buyer.

As for the implementation, I'd like to see both options. I'd like icons so that if I don't want to move compartment to compartment in the heat of battle I can adjust speed, depth, etcetera with a click. But I'd also like the option to move from compartment to compartment when circumstances allow the time, greater immersion and all that.

I'm excited now. If they add single player, I'll definitely be sailing for the Swedish Navy.

View Poll Results: Single player UI
Add icons to the screen that allow a player to change course, speed, depth with a click	63	48.46%
Add icons to the screen that place the player in the compartment to manually change course, speed, depth	59	45.38%
Leave single player UI out	1	0.77%
Other (posted below)	7	5.38%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

06-27-16, 09:01 AM	#1
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,365 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Single player upgrade If you were going to add single player user interface, would you add icons to the screen that set course, speed, depth? Or icons that move you to the proper compartment to manually adjust the dials and levers? How would you handle the balance, would you make single player UI an option only when there is just one player, or would it be available in cases where there are two players, three players? __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

06-27-16, 09:25 AM	#2
danasan Elite Spam Hunter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Flensburg / Germany Posts: 1,141 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	I'd make it a single player UI as an option only when there is just one player. Running around in the boat to adjust here and there while making an attack run might be a bit too much when you are all alone. If it is an option, you can still choose between running around or using icons to set speed etc., me thinks. __________________ "I invite you to go inside this submergible hole in the water where you can nicely hide from destroyers."

06-27-16, 04:13 PM	#4
Chromatix Watch Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 26 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	I voted "Other" since my position on this is very nuanced. Bear in mind that I'm coming at this from a primarily single-player perspective, so I'm looking for the greatest immersion and utility in that mode and thinking less of PvP. I'm in favour of a concept where each major function of the boat is handled by a crew, and players can take over a position from the AI crew. This implies that the AI crew should have realistically human performance in their handling of each position, so that a human player can perform better if skilled, and worse if unskilled. A single player would necessarily take the commanding role (except perhaps for focused tutorial missions), and will be directly in charge of an attack. He should therefore have a very quick and easy way to give straightforward commands for the rest of the crew (AI or otherwise) to carry out, and for that purpose a set of UI icons similar to Silent Hunter's would make a lot of sense. These would set explicit goals for the crew to work towards, either by an explicit, realistic telegraph instrument (as for engine commands) or a virtual "bug" superimposed on the real one, backed up by a voice repeater. Voice commands basically work for commanding players, but even this gets a bit cacophonic (without established military phraseology and discipline) and would probably prove unreliable for commanding AI crew. When not in the attacking phase, a single player will often wish to attend to different stations himself, eg. listening to a sonar contact to verify or supplement the sonarman's analysis, or going over the charts with the navigator. Also, a multi-crewed boat may be shorthanded, requiring players to change stations regularly for maximum operational efficiency. For this purpose, being able to walk around the sub step by step is sufficient, but potentially tedious. At the same time, adding the ability to teleport between stations instantly is a little too unrealistic. Instead, buttons which pathfind the player directly to an operating position at a normal pace for the situation (cruising, action, or silent) would probably work well, without causing a major imbalance. But the quick command icons are the essential feature. I don't see any other way to reliably command an AI crew. __________________ In a submarine battle, you can be: on fire, underwater, under fire, & taking on water... simultaneously.

06-27-16, 04:24 PM	#5
Gwenydd verrückt kaleun Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Northwestern Washington Posts: 104 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 3	simple I would make all control inputs for all stations so they are mapped to either keyboard, directx, or analog inputs so they can be accessed from anywhere on the boat. This would allow for single player controls as well as mapping of physical controls used in physical simulator environments (as in the working replica type vii control room I'd like to build). As someone who has built and maintained professional flight simulator hardware/software environments for years and who wants to build a realistic simulated u-boat environment this would make my life significantly easier while at the same time provide for single player control of the boat. For sim environment builders it's essential to have ALL sim functions mappable to any input desired. I would not use icons on screen for this at all, since it would be seamless with all inputs mapped. Gwen (the crazy flight sim/real aircraft/sub sim builder woman) =P Last edited by Gwenydd; 06-27-16 at 04:56 PM.

06-27-16, 01:43 PM	#3
cherbert Engineer Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 210 Downloads: 86 Uploads: 0	Make it so TheDarkWraith can mod it either way :-p

06-27-16, 04:50 PM	#6
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	I have a desktop with 4gig ram graphics card . 22'' monitor Keyboard Mouse I don't like key commands . I always use the GUI with SH5 . cheers . Last edited by THE_MASK; 06-28-16 at 06:16 PM.

06-27-16, 07:49 PM	#7
Cpt-Maxim Electrician's Mate Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Great Lakes Area - Ohio Posts: 131 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	I'm for what the devs talked about on June 7th & 14th Subsim chats.. 1. Add AI players at every station initially as the sub spawns into game. The original player to create the sub is assumed to be captain at the start and has buttons to command the AI as needed. No teleporting. 2. As human crew are permitted to join, and walk to a station, the human may "relieve the AI player" to take over the station, but if human walks away, AI resumes the station with full animations "looking busy" but changing nothing until given the order from the captain. 3. If the sub can hold 6 humans eventually and all 6 humans are aboard, the AI players still populate the sub in positions that convey realism, even if it is just a bunk room or kitchen or doing maintenance - with other animations for silent running. Also as Sober said above, no need for emotional conversations with AI or puzzle over solutions on whether or not to shoot the cook, as this game is designed for humans to play from different locations within the sub and interact with each other.. __________________ You may find me on one of these teamspeak servers: Subsim.com - subsim.teamspeak3.com WWII Battleground Europe, Allied, - ts.wwiionline.com:9988 Elite Dangerous, Gamers Cove - 82.21.87.49

06-28-16, 12:49 AM	#8
makman94 Hellas Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,325 Downloads: 182 Uploads: 7	hello HMS Marulken devs, for me, nothing can beat the 2d stations ui . I am looking forward to see detailed and ,as possible can be done, at simulator fuctionality stations at which the player can ACCURATELLY control the devices of each station. for me the key for a succesive simulator is not the 3d parts but the sim itself on which the player will be able to use the devices with all their glory. the hydrophone room was a very huppy surprise for me as you made it. i saw in there more fuctions for this so 'sensitive' device of submarines and i would really like to have a 2d station for this (and for the periscope and for the radar) at which i will be able to accuratelly use the parts. playing it only at 3d views was a 'torture' for me as i was unable to accuratelly control anything.everything was made at 'about' i wanted to make rather than where 'exactly' i wanted it to be made. very soon the fan starting fading away. Of course, i am sure that down the road you will fix all these but i see no reason not to include the 2d stations ui.(with accurate dials,devices...buttons...etc) . the one is not discarding the other. and as the hard part is exactly the 3d stations ,you almost made it so i am really hoping that a polished 2d ui will not be a big deal for you. as for the need of four people to play the game ,although is a very good idea and have very fan...etc , must NOT discard the option for a single player. As a single player , i must not have to run through stations all the time (this has no fan at all) and there the need of a very nice 2d ui to be applied. Just my two cents , and wishing all the best to your efforts guys ! it is ,by far, the best i have seen after the sh2 __________________ Knowledge is the only thing that nobody can ever take from you... Mediafire page:http://www.mediafire.com/folder/da50.../Makman94_Mods

06-28-16, 04:08 AM	#9
THEBERBSTER Growing Old Disgracefully Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Hythe - Southampton Posts: 9,607 Downloads: 1132 Uploads: 0	Something different to SH3-4-5 where everything is done through icons would be a good alternative challenge and something totally different. Peter __________________ LSH3-2015 <> TUTORIALS <> ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW <> ALL IN ONE PLACE SH4 <> TUTORIALS <> HOW TO DO IT <> INFORMATION <> DOWNLOAD LINKS SH5 <> TUTORIALS <> HOW TO DO IT <> INFORMATION <> DOWNLOAD LINKS Always Here To Help A Fellow 'Subber' \| Need An Answer to A Question Just Send Me A PM

06-28-16, 09:15 AM	#10
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,365 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	makman, good to see your comments, your 2 cents are always for $100 around here __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

07-01-16, 09:37 PM	#12
Pablo Commodore Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 641 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	Hi! For what it's worth, I think a single player interface is absolutely necessary since many of us won't be able to use multiplayer. I'm not sure about which positions a human player would find to be interesting - I suppose that would depend on whether the commander takes a hands-on role (e.g., using the UZO or periscopes personally) or a hands-off role (having the 1WO collect targeting data), but I assume the U-boat commander will be one of them. If I assume that a single player is the U-boat commander, the commander (or other human officer) should be limited to things a commander would normally do, e.g., order the deck gun to be manned and direct which target the gun shoots at, but not aim the gun in first-person mode. With this in mind, I would provide the following commander's interfaces: Tower watch (binoculars or Mk. I eyeball view) Attack periscope Search periscope UZO Hydrophone/sonar station Radio operator / radar / radar warning indicator Navigator (note the navigator was generally a warrant officer, not a commissioned officer) First person Control Room ("Zentrale") view I suggest that all positions be handled by AI crew unless a human player is present at that station. Whenever the "commander" gives an order, it goes to whichever entity (human or AI) is controlling it. It can be given via a 2D interface (e.g., icons) to humans or AI, or by voice to AI. The question of whether you have voice actors echo the command for another human player to hear it, or whether you use voice recognition software for AI players, or both, is a cost trade-off for the developers. Hope this helps! __________________ "...far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt, speech before the Hamilton Club, Chicago, April 10, 1899

07-01-16, 11:55 PM	#13
Chromatix Watch Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 26 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	As a note on the "tower watch" position, it is essential that the player is able to move around there (as is presently possible in Marulken) to get a good view in any direction. Conversely, the field of view afforded by the UZO should be realistically limited by its position. This was quite a serious problem in SH4, with the fleet boats' periscope sheers blocking a wide arc of the starboard quarter, and no way to move past it except by personally manning an aft-facing gun. But raise the binoculars or man the TBT, and the sheers and bridge crew magically became invisible! __________________ In a submarine battle, you can be: on fire, underwater, under fire, & taking on water... simultaneously.

07-06-16, 11:32 PM	#14
crazygerbil Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	All the buttons! All of the above. Just put in all of the options so that it is easy for each player to change it. Well, for non-PvP, at least. If you want, you can leave most of them not bound to anything by default. For PvP, hmmm... maybe no single-player UI (U-boat Interface ) for PvP? Maybe that would lower the player-base too much, hmm... something to think about. But yeah, I would err on the side of giving the end user more control over how to control things.

07-12-16, 02:00 PM	#15
Oubaas Weps Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 367 Downloads: 65 Uploads: 0	I would love a single player version of this title. I live in a very rural area and my Internet connection is crap, so single player is the only way to go for me. If they include single player, I'm a definite, immediate buyer. As for the implementation, I'd like to see both options. I'd like icons so that if I don't want to move compartment to compartment in the heat of battle I can adjust speed, depth, etcetera with a click. But I'd also like the option to move from compartment to compartment when circumstances allow the time, greater immersion and all that. I'm excited now. If they add single player, I'll definitely be sailing for the Swedish Navy.