Interceptor Sub

[Travis Reed]

I wish there was a way to reduce the noise the screws make. 0 max RPM while submerged does work, but the screws still make some noise that I can hear (although the AI doesn't seem to be able to hear it very well).

I'm curious as to why you left 2 screws configured, when only one is modeled. Perhaps because SH4 doesn't like single screwed subs?

As for using the Walther Engine for noise reduction...are we certain that works? I would think that since they pretty much allow the main diesels to run while submerged it would be extremely noisy... Perhaps SH4 doesn't implement it...

To truly solve the noise problem and create a true silent drive I'd like to figure out how to adjust the volume (as perceived by both the player and the AI) of the engine and screws independently of adjusting the engine RPM...but that's presently beyond my knowledge...assuming it's even possible...

EDIT: While running the beta through testing, I did notice that the gun crew is injured way too easily. I would imagine that the deck gun crew and the gunners for the AA triple guns would be inside and not on the deck...thus not exposed to incoming fire. The deck watch and those manning the .50 cal AA would be exposed (but I doubt you could easily separate the two AA gun crews, given the lack of space on the crew management screen).

Also, I noticed that the draft could use adjustment. Most of the modern shaped subs don't have the waterline halfway up the sides, usually more than halfway (I should not be able to see the tip of the bow at the waterline). Perhaps change the draft to 30-32 feet. Would also help put the screw all the way into the water and hide the shroud..

[TabbyHunter]

Dude, you love to make interesting subs, dont you? Hope you finish it soon!

[ETR3(SS)]

The amount of noise you put into the water is determined by the amount of shaft rpms. Anything less than 50rpm is a silent running speed. I haven't tried editing sound files so that may or may not help as well.

[Travis Reed]

Originally Posted by ETR3(SS)

The amount of noise you put into the water is determined by the amount of shaft rpms. Anything less than 50rpm is a silent running speed. I haven't tried editing sound files so that may or may not help as well.

I was actually thinking of the config for the sounds (the .dsd files), not the sound files themselves. It seems, though, that the .dsd files do not have anything to do with volume, just which sound file is played by what event.

Something else to consider is that the Hydrogen Peroxide engine is more difficult to refuel. You have to actually end your patrol back at your assigned base to get more fuel for it (in my experience, anyway). This means that you can't just stop at any friendly base to get it topped off (as with diesel fuel). In my opinion, it should not be used as a primary propulsion system. This is, however, Silverwolf's boat...so he may do as he pleases.

[PL_Andrev]

Originally Posted by Silverwolf

...
Amazing, just amazing...

[ETR3(SS)]

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

I was actually thinking of the config for the sounds (the .dsd files), not the sound files themselves. It seems, though, that the .dsd files do not have anything to do with volume, just which sound file is played by what event.

Something else to consider is that the Hydrogen Peroxide engine is more difficult to refuel. You have to actually end your patrol back at your assigned base to get more fuel for it (in my experience, anyway). This means that you can't just stop at any friendly base to get it topped off (as with diesel fuel). In my opinion, it should not be used as a primary propulsion system. This is, however, Silverwolf's boat...so he may do as he pleases.

Well the range you get with the Walther drive can be adjusted just like the diesels and electrics. One advantage to making the Walther drive the primary drive is that it can never fail. However that being said, I've started looking at using it as the backup means of propulsion now. Couple reasons for that: 1) By switching it to secondary that removes user error, comments like "this mod sucks! I can only go X knots" would go away (well hopefully). 2) It can better emulate propulsion casualties such as: a primary coolant leak, steam line rupture, burnt out rotor, or a cracked cylinder head. Also with the Walther as primary it's harder to get the speeds you want with the diesels or electrics if you want a lower speed for them.

[Silverwolf]

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

I'm curious as to why you left 2 screws configured, when only one is modeled. Perhaps because SH4 doesn't like single screwed subs?

As for using the Walther Engine for noise reduction...are we certain that works? I would think that since they pretty much allow the main diesels to run while submerged it would be extremely noisy... Perhaps SH4 doesn't implement it...

EDIT: While running the beta through testing, I did notice that the gun crew is injured way too easily. I would imagine that the deck gun crew and the gunners for the AA triple guns would be inside and not on the deck...thus not exposed to incoming fire. The deck watch and those manning the .50 cal AA would be exposed (but I doubt you could easily separate the two AA gun crews, given the lack of space on the crew management screen).

Also, I noticed that the draft could use adjustment. Most of the modern shaped subs don't have the waterline halfway up the sides, usually more than halfway (I should not be able to see the tip of the bow at the waterline). Perhaps change the draft to 30-32 feet. Would also help put the screw all the way into the water and hide the shroud..

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

Something else to consider is that the Hydrogen Peroxide engine is more difficult to refuel. You have to actually end your patrol back at your assigned base to get more fuel for it (in my experience, anyway). This means that you can't just stop at any friendly base to get it topped off (as with diesel fuel). In my opinion, it should not be used as a primary propulsion system. This is, however, Silverwolf's boat...so he may do as he pleases.

SH4 doesn't have a problem with single propeller subs because ETR3(SS)'s 688i has a single prop. From what I am seeing the two propeller slots may have something to do with the Walther turbine only working underwater. One prop for diesels and the other for the turbine. I've enabled the turbine above water and I get a speed boost but it eventually slows back down to the top speed I have set. Of course I could be wrong. The Walther turbine is not set as the primary means of propulsion, it's supposed to be the caterpillar drive. You engage it and the rpm goes below 50 like ETR3 said. It will have a far greater range than the Diesel and battery so you don't have to worry about refueling for a long while.

I edited the draft to be just above 32 feet. If I make it exactly 32 feet the air vents for submerging go off every so often because the waves cause the sub to go to deep in the water. I hopefully found why the crew was being harmed so easily, in the main upc file there's a crew exposure value that was at 0.7. I changed it to what all the interior spaces have it as, 0.1.

Originally Posted by TabbyHunter

Dude, you love to make interesting subs, dont you? Hope you finish it soon!

I do, I always enjoy bringing something different to the table. I will be releasing a second beta once I have the main control room all setup in game.

[Travis Reed]

Originally Posted by Silverwolf

SH4 doesn't have a problem with single propeller subs because ETR3(SS)'s 688i has a single prop. From what I am seeing the two propeller slots may have something to do with the Walther turbine only working underwater. One prop for diesels and the other for the turbine. I've enabled the turbine above water and I get a speed boost but it eventually slows back down to the top speed I have set. Of course I could be wrong. The Walther turbine is not set as the primary means of propulsion, it's supposed to be the caterpillar drive. You engage it and the rpm goes below 50 like ETR3 said. It will have a far greater range than the Diesel and battery so you don't have to worry about refueling for a long while.

I would usually use the submerged propulsion as the primary as that's what the sub seems to be designed for (primarily submerged, surfacing for air every now and again).

Originally Posted by Silverwolf

I edited the draft to be just above 32 feet. If I make it exactly 32 feet the air vents for submerging go off every so often because the waves cause the sub to go to deep in the water. I hopefully found why the crew was being harmed so easily, in the main upc file there's a crew exposure value that was at 0.7. I changed it to what all the interior spaces have it as, 0.1.

I've been experimenting with the draft myself. And while 35 feet is most aesthetically pleasing (makes it look more like modern subs, with their low freeboard), I noted that in rough seas the deck guns get washed out easily. This makes it easy to miss...and is a royal pain when manning the aft gun yourself. I'm going to experiment with 30 or 32 foot drafts to see which gives the best aesthetics while maintaining useability. I found that most of the deck crew (aside from the watch) had a value of 9, not 0.7.

I did manage to get it added to the campaign files for TMO 1.9, however, as with the Shark I had to modify the ammunition file to grant the new torps from start of war and free (imagine the renown hit of having to restock 50 of those things at 500 a pop...). I also noted that when I upgraded to the Improved SD radar (at the very beginning of the war) there was nothing fitted in that slot on patrol. The radar was listed and such, but looking inside the conning tower, I did not see the radar mast or head where it was supposed to be. I also noted the Improved version seems to be from the Kraken's upgrade pack. I was not particularly interested in the Kraken, so I don't have it at present (but will be getting it solely to make the radar work properly).

Also, I note that on the surface, when the deck guns are facing forward (their respective forward...) the barrels don't quite come up above the lip of the cowling in 'front' of them. This means that when they fire forward, the shells should be damaging this cowling and not reaching the target (and yet, they do reach their target without causing damage on the way out). I'd try raising the guns another few inches when they deploy, so this minor issue doesn't crop up.

I'm also noting, that the batteries don't seem to want to recharge. I do realize that they are set to last a long time, however, after having them drop to 98/100 or less and sitting for weeks recharging (sometimes at Stop, sometimes at 1/3, sometimes at 2/3) they don't seem to recharge at all. I'm looking at a potential situation where the batteries finally run out and can't effectively be recharged. This could pose a major problem, depending upon when and where this occurs. I also had this problem with the Shark. I suspect that SH4 bases the recharge times off of the range @ speed values from the batteries themselves, rather than using a hardcoded value.

[ETR3(SS)]

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

I suspect that SH4 bases the recharge times off of the range @ speed values from the batteries themselves, rather than using a hardcoded value.

That would be a correct suspicion.

[Travis Reed]

I've decided that, while my fear of running out of battery power and not being able to recharge effectively is sound, the range one would have to travel to accomplish that is so vast that it's probably easier to return to base before it becomes an issue than to try recharging them at sea. (150 thousand nautical miles at 30 knots...)

[Travis Reed]

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

I did manage to get it added to the campaign files for TMO 1.9, however, as with the Shark I had to modify the ammunition file to grant the new torps from start of war and free (imagine the renown hit of having to restock 50 of those things at 500 a pop...). I also noted that when I upgraded to the Improved SD radar (at the very beginning of the war) there was nothing fitted in that slot on patrol. The radar was listed and such, but looking inside the conning tower, I did not see the radar mast or head where it was supposed to be. I also noted the Improved version seems to be from the Kraken's upgrade pack. I was not particularly interested in the Kraken, so I don't have it at present (but will be getting it solely to make the radar work properly).

The interceptor uses the Gato's upgrade packs, for the most part (at least for radar). The Improved SD radar I upgraded to at the beginning of the war was from the Kraken's upgrade packs (the info is listed in the UpgradePacks.upc file even without the associated addon installed). I removed the Kraken's upgrades, since I don't intend on using the Kraken, and the problem is resolved (although I had to trash that campaign...not too big an issue since I'd just started).

[Travis Reed]

After continued campaign testing, I've noted that my fear of running out of battery power with no effective means of recharging them is quite well founded and not to be ignored...since I've already done it on a few occasions...

It seems that since the batteries are set for high speed they will drain extremely rapidly at lower speeds. I don't find it useful attacking targets (especially convoys...) at high enough speeds to maintain the best battery efficiency. If I go too fast, I have far less time to plot a solution, and engage than If I'm traveling at a slower speed. I know the Torps are acoustic homing and while this helps, it's not the be all and end all. Most of what I encounter are slow moving targets. They move slow enough to not trigger the acoustic homing device on the torps, so I have to shoot 'em the same way as any non-homing torp, which requires a decent firing solution and attack angle.

I've changed the throttle settings to match the TMO 1.9 Tench, so I'm usually running at 1/3 or 2/3 (6-7 knots and 13-14 knots submerged, 3-4 knots and 9-10 knots surfaced) for data acquisition and solution plotting.

[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.16
AheadOneThird=0.33
AheadStandard=0.47
AheadFull=0.80
AheadFlank=1.00
BackSlow=-0.26
BackStandard=-0.40
BackFull=-0.53
BackEmergency=-0.66

I'm also noting, that even with a max RPM of 25, DDs and other escorts with passive sonar seem to be able to hear me (even at 1/3-2/3).Although the range at which they can do so seems to be severely limited. It may be that RPM isn't the only factor that determines how well they can hear you. Perhaps speed is also a factor.

I was also thinking it might be cool to adapt the gtaling guns from the Shark for AA work and use them in place of the .50 cal machine guns.

[ETR3(SS)]

The battery life times have been broken since the 1.4 patch. Curiously enough they worked fine for 1.3. Whenever you travel less than 7kts you encounter the battery bug. As for escorts still picking you up passively, it kinda makes sense. When you rig for silent running it secures damage control and torpedo loading in addition to setting speed to Ahead 1/3.

[Silverwolf]

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

After continued campaign testing, I've noted that my fear of running out of battery power with no effective means of recharging them is quite well founded and not to be ignored...since I've already done it on a few occasions...

It seems that since the batteries are set for high speed they will drain extremely rapidly at lower speeds. I don't find it useful attacking targets (especially convoys...) at high enough speeds to maintain the best battery efficiency. If I go too fast, I have far less time to plot a solution, and engage than If I'm traveling at a slower speed. I know the Torps are acoustic homing and while this helps, it's not the be all and end all. Most of what I encounter are slow moving targets. They move slow enough to not trigger the acoustic homing device on the torps, so I have to shoot 'em the same way as any non-homing torp, which requires a decent firing solution and attack angle.

I've changed the throttle settings to match the TMO 1.9 Tench, so I'm usually running at 1/3 or 2/3 (6-7 knots and 13-14 knots submerged, 3-4 knots and 9-10 knots surfaced) for data acquisition and solution plotting.

[EngineProperties]
AllStop=0.00
AheadSlow=0.16
AheadOneThird=0.33
AheadStandard=0.47
AheadFull=0.80
AheadFlank=1.00
BackSlow=-0.26
BackStandard=-0.40
BackFull=-0.53
BackEmergency=-0.66

I'm also noting, that even with a max RPM of 25, DDs and other escorts with passive sonar seem to be able to hear me (even at 1/3-2/3).Although the range at which they can do so seems to be severely limited. It may be that RPM isn't the only factor that determines how well they can hear you. Perhaps speed is also a factor.

I was also thinking it might be cool to adapt the gtaling guns from the Shark for AA work and use them in place of the .50 cal machine guns.

Originally Posted by Travis Reed

The interceptor uses the Gato's upgrade packs, for the most part (at least for radar). The Improved SD radar I upgraded to at the beginning of the war was from the Kraken's upgrade packs (the info is listed in the UpgradePacks.upc file even without the associated addon installed). I removed the Kraken's upgrades, since I don't intend on using the Kraken, and the problem is resolved (although I had to trash that campaign...not too big an issue since I'd just started).

I really wish that the recharge rates were able to be modified as an actual value, that would really limit this problem. ETR3(SS) makes a good point that securing for silent running can help in the DDs not detecting you. However I also think that with the game geared towards the subs being from WWII it's going to be very hard to make a sub run completely quiet.

From what I have messed with over the past couple of days I have come up with two alternatives for the battery recharge problem. One is to set the charge at a lower range so that you can recharge it while surfaced. However that will force you to run the sub on the surface for most of the patrol. With this being a nuclear sub batteries aren't really supposed to be an issue. So the other alternative would be to make the charge last for a ridiculously long time at 7 knots. So your looking at like 2 to 3 million miles per charge.

I've got the peroxide set at 4 million miles at 25 knots, the max speed is almost 40 so i figured 25 is a good cruising speed when traveling from one patrol area to the next.

Don't worry about the Kraken's upgrade packs being put on the sub. I realized that I forgot to actually rename them when I added the sections in. I've found a way to add new sensors and not mess up the ones already in game. So the next beta release will have the proper sensors and no overlapping from the other subs.

[Travis Reed]

Are you certain that SH4 can handle those obscenely long ranges?

I actually found a balance of sorts with the battery life. I set it to 1500NM at 40 and am able to recharge it on the surface, and still be able to cruise at 30+ submerged for quite a long distance before I even have to consider recharging.

Also, if this is supposed to be a nuclear powered boat, realize that most real world nuclear vessels are generally considered to be able to cruise at their maximum speed (I'm sure ETR3(SS) has more information here....how much of it he can tell us, however, is another matter entirely...). You might wish to take that into consideration.