DCS products.

Spike88 · 09-06-09, 08:41 PM

I'm thinking of getting Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark, but I've heard bad things about starforce and how it screws up peoples computers. What are the risks, and is the game worth them?

Task Force · 09-06-09, 09:01 PM

the starforce they use isnt like the normal starforce... it is not the type that installs onto your computer...

Spike88 · 09-06-09, 09:10 PM

How does it work then? I've heard horror stories from people who've had starforce.

Task Force · 09-06-09, 09:14 PM

I believe (look it up...) porphy said it all below...

Im useing it with no issues...

porphy · 09-07-09, 12:54 AM

With Black Shark (download version) you need to activate the game on line first time you run it. The activation is then tied to your computer hardware setup. But it does not install drivers on your computer. As long as hardware doesn't change in a dramatic way you need no cd in tray and there is no weekly checking through the internet. You can play off line.
The number of activations is limited to 10 I think. But you also have deactivations you can use if you want to do a system reinstall etc. Even so, I managed to reinstall Black shark in Win 7, going from XP, without using another activation. I used a registry backup, and it worked alright. I also later on changed my graphics card without any need to do another activation. In short, the starforce that comes with Black Shark is not very intrusive, just an annoying limitation for the customer.

Flaming cliffs is the old "bad" starforce though that installs drivers on your computer. (It has not given me any problems through the years) If you buy the Flaming Cliffs cd it will check for it once a week. If you have the download version (which I have) it comes with a number of activations as well, but you need no cd to play. This one has fewer activations than Black Shark, and as a matter of fact I have now used my last one. To get more you will then need to contact Eagle dynamics, the producers of Flaming cliffs.

Lock on (without Flaming cliffs) has no starforce as far as I know.

The horror stories with starforce was mainly tied to earlier versions of their drivers. I don't hear much of it these days, but they sure did get a bad rep back then.

In short, I find no real worries to stop you from enjoying Black Shark, unless you find the activation style of protection to be non acceptable. Flaming Cliffs is a bit more questionable as it installs Starforce drivers. Lock On is no problem at all.

cheers porphy

Skybird · 09-07-09, 05:09 AM

Be advised that some people still report incompatabilities, although not as often as with the old software.

If the publisher dissapears and for financial reasons cannot maintain servers, you are screwed. You cannot install it then since you cannot activate it. That is a principal thing that always speaks against such installation schemes. In the early days of FS2004 this and the withdrawing of software licenses to make people paying againhas been a problem with some products. To be fair I say it is not a general problem, though.

Be aware that you need a fast CPU, that the grafix boards is said to play no major role, and that Dual and quad cores are not supported. There is a mod that worked around that, I read - and the programmers liked it, so I read somewhere. How well it works, I cannot say, nor do I know the details. But it is not being done by the programmers themselves. Which at least is a bit bewidlering for such a CPU-hungry title of the present time.

The functionality of the sim certainly is breathtaking, no doubt. But the graphics engine is 8 years old. Single CPU power is the criterion you need to watch for.

I do not own it myself, but have seen it on a buddy's system. He agrees with me: superb cockpit functionality and flight model, but hopelessly overaged graphical realisation. It'S the same engie they already used for Lock On - and that one is a polished version of the engine they used for the old IL-2.

Of not few people I heared that bought it, but found it impossible to run it decently on their not top-notch-CPUed systems. Check carefully that your system can handle it. Do not blindly trust system recommendations of the producers, these are almost always extremely optimistic.

porphy · 09-07-09, 07:56 AM

Skybird is right about the downside of activations with starforce, and both Lock On: Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark are certainly CPU hungry.

If you run Black Shark on vista or win 7 64bit systems with duo or quad cpu you will benefit about 10 more in fps compared to XP. This is not true muliticore support, but has more to do with how the OS works. With patch 1.1 for Black Shark this is automatically applied. No need for a mod anymore.

I have pumped up my cpu, which is a intel duo E6600 2.6 Ghz to 3.4 ghz and now I have about 50-90 fps in cockpit in freeflight, outside view about 120fps or more (at 1680x1050 resolution). The flightmodell is superb for a helicopter. I mostly fly around in the Shark, don't do to much combat. Graphics are both good and crude in my opinion. One big minus though is that trees only blocks player view, not the AI or misiles. So be prepared to take a sam in the face if you use the treeline as cover instead of a ridgeline...

With coming modules (A-10) it is said that the Black Shark engine will get updates as well, but it remains to see what this means, or if it really happens.

cheers Porphy

Spike88 · 09-07-09, 09:05 AM

Then I guess I'll wait to get my new computer for Black shark. I have Lock On MAC(which does not have starforce) now, and can play it fine on medium settings, so Flaming Cliffs should work.

porphy · 09-07-09, 09:28 AM

Hi again

Actualy, I would do the other way around if you already have Lock On. I found Black Shark performing slightly better than Flaming Cliffs. It seems the engine got at least some more refinement from Flaming Cliffs to Black Shark. Expect some 5-10 fps drop when running Flaming Cliffs compared to Lock On, that is when flying the more advanced flight model for the SU-25T.

My take on it is, that flying the helicopter is much more interesting than the SU-25T, at least it is radically different from the fighters you already have tried in Lock On. Plus you have the fantastic clickable cockpit to play with as well.

Spike88 · 09-07-09, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porphy

Hi again

Actualy, I would do the other way around if you already have Lock On. I found Black Shark performing slightly better than Flaming Cliffs. It seems the engine got at least some more refinement from Flaming Cliffs to Black Shark. Expect some 5-10 fps drop when running Flaming Cliffs compared to Lock On, that is when flying the more advanced flight model for the SU-25T.

My take on it is, that flying the helicopter is much more interesting than the SU-25T, at least it is radically different from the fighters you already have tried in Lock On. Plus you have the fantastic clickable cockpit to play with as well.

Well the thing is, I have the following specs;
1.8ghz AMD Sempron
Nvidia 6150 LE 64mb dedicated(1024mb available)
5.5 gigs of ram(even though my OS recognizes 3)

Lock on Runs smoothly for me on medium, the only time its lagged so far was when I was downloading something. I don't want to spend the $40 just to have it sit in my portable harddrive. I wish there was a demo so I could be sure before I spent the money.

porphy · 09-07-09, 09:55 AM

Yes, Flaming Cliffs should be cheaper now. Anyway, you will have the helicopter stuff to look forward to.

cheers Porphy

Spike88 · 09-07-09, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porphy

Yes, Flaming Cliffs should be cheaper now. Anyway, you will have the helicopter stuff to look forward to.

cheers Porphy

Actually thinking about it, I did try the flaming cliffs demo and it worked fine.

09-06-09, 08:41 PM	#1
Spike88 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,052 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	DCS products. I'm thinking of getting Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark, but I've heard bad things about starforce and how it screws up peoples computers. What are the risks, and is the game worth them? __________________

09-06-09, 09:01 PM	#2
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	the starforce they use isnt like the normal starforce... it is not the type that installs onto your computer... __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time"

09-06-09, 09:10 PM	#3
Spike88 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,052 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	How does it work then? I've heard horror stories from people who've had starforce. __________________

09-06-09, 09:14 PM	#4
Task Force Rear Admiral Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: SPACE!!!! Posts: 10,142 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	I believe (look it up...) porphy said it all below... Im useing it with no issues... __________________ Task Force industries "Taking control of the world, one mind at a time" Last edited by Task Force; 09-07-09 at 01:02 PM.

09-07-09, 12:54 AM	#5
porphy Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 603 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	With Black Shark (download version) you need to activate the game on line first time you run it. The activation is then tied to your computer hardware setup. But it does not install drivers on your computer. As long as hardware doesn't change in a dramatic way you need no cd in tray and there is no weekly checking through the internet. You can play off line. The number of activations is limited to 10 I think. But you also have deactivations you can use if you want to do a system reinstall etc. Even so, I managed to reinstall Black shark in Win 7, going from XP, without using another activation. I used a registry backup, and it worked alright. I also later on changed my graphics card without any need to do another activation. In short, the starforce that comes with Black Shark is not very intrusive, just an annoying limitation for the customer. Flaming cliffs is the old "bad" starforce though that installs drivers on your computer. (It has not given me any problems through the years) If you buy the Flaming Cliffs cd it will check for it once a week. If you have the download version (which I have) it comes with a number of activations as well, but you need no cd to play. This one has fewer activations than Black Shark, and as a matter of fact I have now used my last one. To get more you will then need to contact Eagle dynamics, the producers of Flaming cliffs. Lock on (without Flaming cliffs) has no starforce as far as I know. The horror stories with starforce was mainly tied to earlier versions of their drivers. I don't hear much of it these days, but they sure did get a bad rep back then. In short, I find no real worries to stop you from enjoying Black Shark, unless you find the activation style of protection to be non acceptable. Flaming Cliffs is a bit more questionable as it installs Starforce drivers. Lock On is no problem at all. cheers porphy __________________ "The only remedy for madness is the innocence of facts." O. Mirbeu "A paranoid is simply someone in possession of all the facts." W. B.

09-07-09, 05:09 AM	#6
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,655 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Be advised that some people still report incompatabilities, although not as often as with the old software. If the publisher dissapears and for financial reasons cannot maintain servers, you are screwed. You cannot install it then since you cannot activate it. That is a principal thing that always speaks against such installation schemes. In the early days of FS2004 this and the withdrawing of software licenses to make people paying againhas been a problem with some products. To be fair I say it is not a general problem, though. Be aware that you need a fast CPU, that the grafix boards is said to play no major role, and that Dual and quad cores are not supported. There is a mod that worked around that, I read - and the programmers liked it, so I read somewhere. How well it works, I cannot say, nor do I know the details. But it is not being done by the programmers themselves. Which at least is a bit bewidlering for such a CPU-hungry title of the present time. The functionality of the sim certainly is breathtaking, no doubt. But the graphics engine is 8 years old. Single CPU power is the criterion you need to watch for. I do not own it myself, but have seen it on a buddy's system. He agrees with me: superb cockpit functionality and flight model, but hopelessly overaged graphical realisation. It'S the same engie they already used for Lock On - and that one is a polished version of the engine they used for the old IL-2. Of not few people I heared that bought it, but found it impossible to run it decently on their not top-notch-CPUed systems. Check carefully that your system can handle it. Do not blindly trust system recommendations of the producers, these are almost always extremely optimistic. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-07-09, 07:56 AM	#7
porphy Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 603 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Skybird is right about the downside of activations with starforce, and both Lock On: Flaming Cliffs and Black Shark are certainly CPU hungry. If you run Black Shark on vista or win 7 64bit systems with duo or quad cpu you will benefit about 10 more in fps compared to XP. This is not true muliticore support, but has more to do with how the OS works. With patch 1.1 for Black Shark this is automatically applied. No need for a mod anymore. I have pumped up my cpu, which is a intel duo E6600 2.6 Ghz to 3.4 ghz and now I have about 50-90 fps in cockpit in freeflight, outside view about 120fps or more (at 1680x1050 resolution). The flightmodell is superb for a helicopter. I mostly fly around in the Shark, don't do to much combat. Graphics are both good and crude in my opinion. One big minus though is that trees only blocks player view, not the AI or misiles. So be prepared to take a sam in the face if you use the treeline as cover instead of a ridgeline... With coming modules (A-10) it is said that the Black Shark engine will get updates as well, but it remains to see what this means, or if it really happens. cheers Porphy __________________ "The only remedy for madness is the innocence of facts." O. Mirbeu "A paranoid is simply someone in possession of all the facts." W. B.

09-07-09, 09:05 AM	#8
Spike88 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 3,052 Downloads: 36 Uploads: 0	Then I guess I'll wait to get my new computer for Black shark. I have Lock On MAC(which does not have starforce) now, and can play it fine on medium settings, so Flaming Cliffs should work. __________________

09-07-09, 09:28 AM	#9
porphy Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 603 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Hi again Actualy, I would do the other way around if you already have Lock On. I found Black Shark performing slightly better than Flaming Cliffs. It seems the engine got at least some more refinement from Flaming Cliffs to Black Shark. Expect some 5-10 fps drop when running Flaming Cliffs compared to Lock On, that is when flying the more advanced flight model for the SU-25T. My take on it is, that flying the helicopter is much more interesting than the SU-25T, at least it is radically different from the fighters you already have tried in Lock On. Plus you have the fantastic clickable cockpit to play with as well. __________________ "The only remedy for madness is the innocence of facts." O. Mirbeu "A paranoid is simply someone in possession of all the facts." W. B.

09-07-09, 09:55 AM	#11
porphy Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 603 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Yes, Flaming Cliffs should be cheaper now. Anyway, you will have the helicopter stuff to look forward to. cheers Porphy __________________ "The only remedy for madness is the innocence of facts." O. Mirbeu "A paranoid is simply someone in possession of all the facts." W. B.