EU signs defence pact

Catfish · 11-13-17, 03:51 PM

"First proposed in the 1950s and long resisted by Britain, European defense planning, operations and weapons development now stands its best chance in years as London steps aside and the United States pushes Europe to pay more for its security."

Somehow i do not think this has been Trump's real desire

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...KBN1DD0PX?il=0

em2nought · 11-13-17, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

"First proposed in the 1950s and long resisted by Britain, European defense planning, operations and weapons development now stands its best chance in years as London steps aside and the United States pushes Europe to pay more for its security."

Somehow i do not think this has been Trump's real desire

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...KBN1DD0PX?il=0

Especially given the new uniform regulations

ikalugin · 11-14-17, 03:33 AM

Well if you can't build the 4th Reich you can try to build the 3rd Califate.

Skybird · 11-14-17, 06:53 AM

"Pact", thats ounds so adamant, so iron-and-steel-like, so unmovable and strong and irresistable. But this PESCO treaty is in tsi frmat not more than a paper of politcal intention, and some bureauracrtic new regulations to avoid bureaucratic overregulation when allied military and liguistics cross borders. It does not raise the combat power and resistability to a Russian attack. It does not claim to raise troops levels and procurations, but wants to use "clever management" to compensate for lacking equipment - like Guttenberg did with the Bundeswehr, which as a result is weaker off after him, than it already was before him.

I stick to it, the money that is planned for this, should directly go into better payment of soldiers to attract more new recruits, and repairing, replacing and procuring military equipment, platforms, and building certain skills (cyberwar, drones). This PESCO treaty now is too uch poltics and bureaucratics, and too little combat-relevant substance, too much is aiming at projecting police forces to thrid world places to build schools and protect elections, than to fight robuts wars against a determined aggressor. For the latter NATO claims responsiblity, and cannot fill it already. If PESCO does not help there, then why having it in the first? To missionise distant parts of the planet in a bid to relabel development aid as defense spendings for the pacifistic audience at home?

Quatschköppe. Weicheier. Waschlappen.

A defense pact - I'm shivering - that does not make a potential enemy scared of the idea to challenge and fight against it, is pointless. And cooperaiton in building weapon platforms? I just need to think of the Airbus A400M to dislike the idea, or the slow - and still not finalised! - delivery history of the Eurofighter. The history of the Puma is not story of fame as well, but illustrates how political correctness trumps de facto needs and military essentials. German tank know how gets outsourced to the French - effectively for nothing.

The problem is the unwillingness of the mental attitude in Europe, in leaders hands, and populations' heads, to defend and to fight for one'S own princples. The problem is the too small armies and the too low numbers. PESCA does not adress any of this. The only positive thing in it is that logistical movement across national borders is hoped to get simplified, bureaucratically. If it works.

They money should go into NATO instead, strengthening European stand in it and by that forcing the Americans to give more ground. Currently the US in NATO is strong and dominant, due to own strength, but also - due to European weakness.

A pact of weak nations, is a weak pact. Thats why PESCO does not convince. Strength contributes strength to a cause. Adding more of weak partners, does not do that, like a chain doe snot become stronger, just because you extend its length by adding more weak links.

Its like I say its with LED torchlights. You do not need torchlights with a dozen LEDs in them, you need just one LED. But that one has to be a real good one. Lamps with a dozen of LEDs are cheap and of bad quality, because their LEDs are cheap and bad, a dozen of these LEDs cost less than one good LED.

Jimbuna · 11-14-17, 06:57 AM

^ I'm with you there Sky

kraznyi_oktjabr · 11-14-17, 07:36 AM

^^ I agree with you Sky! However I would exercise caution with wage increases: do not make your army unaffordable!

Skybird · 11-16-17, 07:42 AM

Reports are coming in today, an expert group that surveyed the Bundeswehr's tank fleet, said that of 244 Leopard-2s, just 95 are ready for action. One third of the fleet has broken down permanently due to lack of spare parts.

Defence pact! Germany needs you to defend it, so join our pact!

According to the German foreign minster Sigmar Gabriel from some months ago, even just repairing the tanks and other broken down equipment or procuring replacements for it, would be considered as "entering a new round of arms race" that "sends the wrong signal to Moscow."

95 tanks left.

Pact! Thats two tank batallions with three companies each (German army structure). TWO! batallions! Six companies!

PACT! PACCA-PACCA-PACCA-PACT...!

11-13-17, 03:51 PM	#1
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,913 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	EU signs defence pact "First proposed in the 1950s and long resisted by Britain, European defense planning, operations and weapons development now stands its best chance in years as London steps aside and the United States pushes Europe to pay more for its security." Somehow i do not think this has been Trump's real desire http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...KBN1DD0PX?il=0 __________________ >^..^<*)))>{ All generalizations are wrong.

11-14-17, 03:33 AM	#3
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Well if you can't build the 4th Reich you can try to build the 3rd Califate. __________________ Grumpy as always.

11-14-17, 06:53 AM	#4
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,668 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	"Pact", thats ounds so adamant, so iron-and-steel-like, so unmovable and strong and irresistable. But this PESCO treaty is in tsi frmat not more than a paper of politcal intention, and some bureauracrtic new regulations to avoid bureaucratic overregulation when allied military and liguistics cross borders. It does not raise the combat power and resistability to a Russian attack. It does not claim to raise troops levels and procurations, but wants to use "clever management" to compensate for lacking equipment - like Guttenberg did with the Bundeswehr, which as a result is weaker off after him, than it already was before him. I stick to it, the money that is planned for this, should directly go into better payment of soldiers to attract more new recruits, and repairing, replacing and procuring military equipment, platforms, and building certain skills (cyberwar, drones). This PESCO treaty now is too uch poltics and bureaucratics, and too little combat-relevant substance, too much is aiming at projecting police forces to thrid world places to build schools and protect elections, than to fight robuts wars against a determined aggressor. For the latter NATO claims responsiblity, and cannot fill it already. If PESCO does not help there, then why having it in the first? To missionise distant parts of the planet in a bid to relabel development aid as defense spendings for the pacifistic audience at home? Quatschköppe. Weicheier. Waschlappen. A defense pact - I'm shivering - that does not make a potential enemy scared of the idea to challenge and fight against it, is pointless. And cooperaiton in building weapon platforms? I just need to think of the Airbus A400M to dislike the idea, or the slow - and still not finalised! - delivery history of the Eurofighter. The history of the Puma is not story of fame as well, but illustrates how political correctness trumps de facto needs and military essentials. German tank know how gets outsourced to the French - effectively for nothing. The problem is the unwillingness of the mental attitude in Europe, in leaders hands, and populations' heads, to defend and to fight for one'S own princples. The problem is the too small armies and the too low numbers. PESCA does not adress any of this. The only positive thing in it is that logistical movement across national borders is hoped to get simplified, bureaucratically. If it works. They money should go into NATO instead, strengthening European stand in it and by that forcing the Americans to give more ground. Currently the US in NATO is strong and dominant, due to own strength, but also - due to European weakness. A pact of weak nations, is a weak pact. Thats why PESCO does not convince. Strength contributes strength to a cause. Adding more of weak partners, does not do that, like a chain doe snot become stronger, just because you extend its length by adding more weak links. Its like I say its with LED torchlights. You do not need torchlights with a dozen LEDs in them, you need just one LED. But that one has to be a real good one. Lamps with a dozen of LEDs are cheap and of bad quality, because their LEDs are cheap and bad, a dozen of these LEDs cost less than one good LED. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

11-14-17, 06:57 AM	#5
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,491 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	^ I'm with you there Sky __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

11-14-17, 07:36 AM	#6
kraznyi_oktjabr Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Republiken Finland Posts: 1,803 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	^^ I agree with you Sky! However I would exercise caution with wage increases: do not make your army unaffordable! __________________ You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic. - Dr. House

11-16-17, 07:42 AM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,668 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Reports are coming in today, an expert group that surveyed the Bundeswehr's tank fleet, said that of 244 Leopard-2s, just 95 are ready for action. One third of the fleet has broken down permanently due to lack of spare parts. Defence pact! Germany needs you to defend it, so join our pact! According to the German foreign minster Sigmar Gabriel from some months ago, even just repairing the tanks and other broken down equipment or procuring replacements for it, would be considered as "entering a new round of arms race" that "sends the wrong signal to Moscow." 95 tanks left. Pact! Thats two tank batallions with three companies each (German army structure). TWO! batallions! Six companies! PACT! PACCA-PACCA-PACCA-PACT...! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 11-16-17 at 07:58 AM.