How to close the Mediterranean route for mass migration

[Skybird]

Simply enforce the international law of the seas.

LINK

I had a vague, general understanding of what the law of the sea is saying on what is described in this article, and so I wonder since two or threee years already why it is not being implemented.

The answer is clear. There is no real hunger for doing the right and the correct thing, the law-abiding and legally binding thing, there instead is an ideologically driven craving to bring as many foreigners to Europe as possible. Humanitarianism and rescuing have little to do with it. Its moralising, and moral megalomania. And a good dose of emotional hysteria and a chance for socialist dreams of disrupting the established bourgeoise communal and social orders of Western states.

I mean, its clear, isn't it: you poic them up in the 12-mile zone of an african country, so you bring them to the next harbour in the country owning that 12 mile zone. It is obliged by international law to take them off the ship and accept them back! If instead you shuttle them over hundreds of miles to a compelöteel ydifferent sea zone and a differeht, far away country, you turn thes epeople - may they be refugees or may they be migrants - into passengers, into travellers who have not booked a ticket for the trip, have no legal allowances by the nation they want to go to, have no claim at all.

I have a growing, cold, bitter anger for these private rescuers fishing for foreign travellers to Europe. These "rescuers" imo are in no way to be seen different from those criminals and smugglers getting paid for smuggling their human freight onto the open sea. These rescuers are criminals in themselves. The article says it somewhere what I already assumed before: that Italy and Malta with their shutting down of harbours just act within the coverage of internal law and do nothing outrageous at all.

[JU_88]

Your sentiment towards the Humanitarian rescue / Migrant taxi service boats
is one that's growing.
Its looking like slowly and begrudgingly the EU will eventually be forced to shut the migrant routes down.

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Your sentiment towards the Humanitarian rescue / Migrant taxi service boats
is one that's growing.
Its looking like slowly and begrudgingly the EU will eventually be forced to shut the migrant routes down.

We can not take half of Africa and the middle East. It's not nice but necessary. We should focus on helping those people where they live so that they don't need / want to migrate (wishful thinking I know...).

[Catfish]

^ yes, basically..

But first let us exploit Africa for rare earths (needed for smartphones, computers, batteries etc.) and pay them 20 US cent per hour, if at all.

Or we support certain factions in a country against other factions that criticize us, and get a civil war going, so they are forced to sell their stuff cheap, for cash and weapons.

Or install a dictator in the middle east so the oil supply is guaranteed.. until the dictator's opinion changes, then we invade, kill him and let the country go down the drain, as long as resources keep coming. Or we make him a pariah, and install sanctions.

Or we stand up for human rights in Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Panama and help those countries.. we can see how well they do now.


And when some poor souls decide that they have to leave their country for their bare life, we deny them entry, so they all have to flee to the nearest countries, of the EU.
And then we complain about the EU, leave it, and accuse them of letting too much bloody foreigners in.

Why not send them to those countries who are responsible for the mess?

(wishful thinking I know...)

[Skybird]

Some hundred poor souls per year is one thing. Currently several dozens of millions of poor souls sit on packed baggage. There are countings that even talk of hundreds of millions from africa and the Middle east alone. And it will not get better in the next generations.

You allow emotions to corrupt reason. And you seem to expect hat reality will bow to your compassion and the laws of nature thus will bend.

You also ignore that it takes two to abuse one of them. You ignore that many problems in africa no longer can be attributed to imperialism and colonial abuse, but are deeply rooted in the continent's own cutural fundament - which to change would be a case for the Africans, not for us. It is Africans voting for corrupt governments, and it is Africans obeying in huge numbers old tribal relations and hostilities. You also ignore that there is a new foreign key player reshuffling the chips on the African table and that we have no control over: China.

Stop that dust-covered socialist self-flagellation telling us that it is always and only america's fault, our fault, the West'S fault. Fair trade, yes, I am all for transparent and free trade (fairness then comes all by itself), but still the most of the reasons making Africans wanting to move to Europe are beyond reach of Westerners thinking they just need to pay some billions here and there and then the causes of migration are gone and people will stop coming. They will come in even higher numbers, because they have learned that where the little help is comign from, obviously much more can be gotten from.

Be attractive as a target, and they will keep coming and their numbers will not shrink, but grow. Scare them away, and have live TV coverage across Africa showing on TV how they fail and get stuck and end up in misery, and they will start thinking twice whether its worth it. There is a reason why deterring and restrictive migrant policies are so incredibly much more successful in their net effectiveness than European and Western policies of the present. We also have incredible social wellfare spendings - and get ever more social wellfare receivers. We battle poverty, and get ever more poverty, it seems. We battle bureauracy and by that increase it. We sort garbage and waste, and produce ever more garbage and waste. We spend ever more development aid, and get Muslim extremism and local corruption and so every more migration in return.

Our ways do not work. And your way of thinking about it in simplistic answers does not work as well. Myself I would already be satisfied if we stop selling military equipment as if it were just any trading good, and stop paying corrupt politicians and government in Africa, and withdraw businesses from china and so open the option to crack down on Chinese influence in Eurpean and especially german economy. Our cravign for creating mutual harmony leads us deeper and deeper into lethal dependency that forces us into self-paralysis and inability to react to anything at all anymore. We strangle ourselves with our endless self-flagellation and concerns and worries. That is no good way to survive the global spread of Chinese influence without needing to pay submissive tributes to global Islam, and Bejing.


Thats typically German: to assume one just needs to walk over there and then can save the world, just en passant. "Peanuts!" Hysterical romanticism I often call it. Politicians' logic that is simplified beyond any rest of a meaning.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Skybird

[...] You allow emotions to corrupt reason. And you seem to expect hat reality will bow to your compassion and the laws of nature thus will bend. [...]

Guilty as charged. The rest was not so bad, too.

But then i did not say that there is a solution, or that it would be easy.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ yes, basically..

But first let us exploit Africa for rare earths (needed for smartphones, computers, batteries etc.) and pay them 20 US cent per hour, if at all.

Or we support certain factions in a country against other factions that criticize us, and get a civil war going, so they are forced to sell their stuff cheap, for cash and weapons.

Or install a dictator in the middle east so the oil supply is guaranteed.. until the dictator's opinion changes, then we invade, kill him and let the country go down the drain, as long as resources keep coming. Or we make him a pariah, and install sanctions.

Or we stand up for human rights in Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Panama and help those countries.. we can see how well they do now.


And when some poor souls decide that they have to leave their country for their bare life, we deny them entry, so they all have to flee to the nearest countries, of the EU.
And then we complain about the EU, leave it, and accuse them of letting too much bloody foreigners in.

Why not send them to those countries who are responsible for the mess?

(wishful thinking I know...)

You can lay that guilt trip all you want. Africa and Middle Easts problems don't all stem from Western exploitation and meddling. That's simply not true. Both the middle east and Africa have many cultural norms and internal disputes that pre-date western colonization and intervention or have remained unchanged by it. The Suni's and Shia's have been fighting each other for best part of the last two thousand years. How is that 'Americas fault?'

Remember India, Hong Kong and much of south east Asia was also colonized by the west - Japan was even Nuked by the west, yet somehow they are all doing pretty good. At some point you must recognize the agency of those people to collectively choose their own destiny. To do otherwise is to infantlize them as helpless, incapable victims, which is a form of bigotry in itself.

Secondly, Migrants are fine but they need to enter a nation though the proper channels not just climb the fence. That is illegal in just about every nation on earth. Why does the EU have to be the exception? regardless of history. Nobody has a Right/Entitlement go and live in what ever nation they damn well please with complete disregard for the nations borders and laws. I don't care what people did in 1819 or 1918 - that doesn't justify anything in now 2018.

Thirdly, mass migration from the Middle East and Africa is having an inevitable social impact on host nations. You think our children should pay the price for our Parents and Grandparents mistakes?
Multi cultural society's can work great, but only when those joining them are ideologically diverse (Race is irrelevant - unless your a far right/ far left moron) and are able to support/abide by the host nations laws and culture to some degree.

The people making a fuss about migrants are many of the working class people on whose communities the migrants are dumped on by the authorities.
While many of the progressive middle class (living in nice neighborhoods) are very pro Migrant of course, they have no problem with other people paying for their morality.

Its not rocket science, I plan to migrate to Spain in a few years, that means I must learn Catalan language and culture - so that I can integrate and be accepted, Not arrogantly demand everyone else learns to understand British Culture and speak English to make feel included- What kind of sense of entitlement is that?
That applies to not only to me but ANYONE migrating to ANY Country. Its migrant 101.

Understand that if you constantly grovel to a group of people over some historical injustice committed by your group, know that there will be no shortage of psychotic activists in that 'victim' group' who will say its never enough - and they will never be happy until you are subordinate to their every whim. they will simply exploit that guilt to gain power over you. They will interpret that guilt not as empathy, but as a weak and contemptible.

[Skybird]

In the end, integration necessarily means: voluntarily getting assimilated. A feeding back of the migrant on the host, is - and must be - a minor effect over long time. These must be carefully assessed whether they are wantd or not. A " creeping" influence of Jewish intelligence is highly welcomed, creeping influence of Islamic dogmatism is not. The first is constructive for the hosting nation, the second is not. I do not see how Europe benefits form the implementation of medieval and earlier standards still running societies that are more primitive than ours: opprrssive patriarchalic family structures, superstitious belief systems, blood revenge spanning over generations, bribery as a way of administration, women as property with halved rights...

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by JU_88

You can lay that guilt trip all you want. Africa and Middle Easts problems don't all stem from Western exploitation and meddling. That's simply not true. Both the middle east and Africa have many cultural norms and internal disputes that pre-date western colonization and intervention or have remained unchanged by it. The Suni's and Shia's have been fighting each other for best part of the last two thousand years. How is that 'Americas fault?'

Remember India, Hong Kong and much of south east Asia was also colonized by the west - Japan was even Nuked by the west, yet somehow they are all doing pretty good. At some point you must recognize the agency of those people to collectively choose their own destiny. To do otherwise is to infantlize them as helpless, incapable victims, which is a form of bigotry in itself.

Secondly, Migrants are fine but they need to enter a nation though the proper channels not just climb the fence. That is illegal in just about every nation on earth. Why does the EU have to be the exception? regardless of history. Nobody has a Right/Entitlement go and live in what ever nation they damn well please with complete disregard for the nations borders and laws.

Thirdly, mass migration from the Middle East and Africa is having an inevitable social impact on host nations. You think our children should pay the price for our Parents and Grandparents mistakes?
Multi cultural society's can work great, but only when those joining them are ideologically diverse (Race is irrelevant - unless your a far right/ far left moron) and are able to support/abide by the host nations laws and culture to some degree.

The people making a fuss about migrants are many of the working class people on whose communities the migrants are dumped on by the authorities.
While many of the progressive the middle class (living in nice neighborhoods) are very pro Migrant of course, they have no problem with other people paying for their morality.

Its not rocket science, I plan to migrate to Spain in a few years, that means I must learn Catalan language and culture - so that I can integrate and be accepted, Not arrogantly demand everyone else learns to understand British Culture and speak English to make feel included- What hell kind of sense of entitlement is that?

Well put Francis, I'm surprised Merkel hasn't warranted a mention yet.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by JU_88

You can lay that guilt trip all you want. Africa and Middle Easts problems don't all stem from Western exploitation and meddling. That's total rubbish. [...]

Yes, i wrote in a provoking tone to make some people think.
And yes, not all problems are, or were, caused by "The West".
But partially, 'we' still are responsible.

- The colonial efforts of most "Empires did not go down well with the invaded countries, i think we can accept that?

- That they came out of this situation as colonies is not necessarily the goodwill of their former rulling empire, but of a lot of struggle – even in India. That some behaved in awful ways and killing lots of their own people along the line, yes. Some learned from us how to do this efficiently.

- When the continent of Africa was divided between those empires, namely England, France, Belgium, Germany, there were artificial borders "erected", straight lines parting ethnicities and constructing "nations" now consisting of different tribes, religions, and opinions. In former times an ethnicity just moved and changed the region it lived in, for better food, evading war, or religious quarrels.

The ruling elite of such new artificial "nation" may consist of a tribe that hates another lower-ranked tribe, and wages war against it. So they flee (=immigrant problem of neighbouring "nation" and so forth), or they are being killed. Civil war, as we just saw in Rwanda, but it is going on in a lot of those "nations".

No doubt, Africa has problems, and aggression and warlords have existed before the colonial clash.
However how belgian king Leopold managed his personal colonies by killing appx. 40,000,000 africans in the process, or how Mr. Rhodes ran his "Rhodesia" (lmao) has forever shaped Africa. Not that most people here even know about it. There are still a lot of files of colonial times stored away from the public e.g. in England, to "not upset the population"

Secondly, Migrants are fine but they need to enter a nation though the proper channels not just climb the fence.

No doubt. Some will indeed flee before attackers and jump into boats for their dear life, but the major portion plans it, and moves illegally, by our standards.

That is illegal in just about every nation on earth. Why does the EU have to be the exception? regardless of history. Nobody has a Right/Entitlement go and live in what ever nation they damn well please with complete disregard for the nations borders and laws.

What makes a living person illegal? You are born in Rwanda or Sudan, and have no papers (due to those artificial borders and the ruling elite tribe not giving you an identity card, because you are of another tribe and they do not like you). Then some Saudis decide to arrest, or kill you, or make you a slave, so you choose to run away. But.. no papers. (see artificial borders, rivaling tribes and elites etc.). Read some books written by Eric Ambler, this 'having papers or not' is a red line connecting all his books, explaining how this world works pretty well.

Again, i agree. The EU being an exception is most probably because of felt guilt and the troubled past (at least Germany of course), but also last not least for the EU's values and publicly declared humanity. And despite all the immigration talk, overall this would be something to be proud of.
It does not work with those masses though, so we have to adapt, yes.

Thirdly, mass migration from the Middle East and Africa is having an inevitable social impact on host nations. You think our children should pay the price for our Parents and Grandparents mistakes?

It seems a lot of especially African children are suffering because of our parents' mistakes. But yes, migration has an impact on host nations.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Simply enforce the international law of the seas.

Similar to enforcing laws governing illegal entry into the US. Simply enforce the laws. Not in this lifetime with out public outcry, fake news and gnashing of teeth.

[Skybird]

There is one reason that hardlky ever get mentioned, becaue it is almost engraved in stone. That is that Europe sits in a privileged climate zone compared to Africa, the tropical regions, South America. Also, little geological activity, comoared to other continents. This has made life and economic and agricultural development much more comfortable, than in the Middle East or Africa.

And this cannot be tackled by "tackling the reaosns for mas smigration". Not without intentionally destroying the basis of our own life qulaity, willingly, so that our life turns miserable and thus equality between theirs and ours gets acieved.

And with the climate change making life more miserable in other parts of the world, this reason why peopel want to move to Europe is doomed to not grow weaker but always stronger and stronger.

"Fluchtursachen bekämpfen" ? Nothing but idiots and clueless morons talking in Berlin. You could as well fight against the coming of the Monsoon, or the earthquake next night.


Learn to pick and and reshuffle the distribution of continents. Now that would be something... But then you would maybe face a much stuffer global compeititon that may crush your own economy. More waste. More production. More consummation of ressources.


We are too many.