GWX & NYGM sub physics combined, some intresting results

[panthercules]

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

@Panthercules,

1.5 - 2.0 knots is required for "proper" depth keeping in GWX.

"All stop" at various depths does indeed produce the behavior you discuss.

Using the "A" (maintain current depth key) "releases" the U-boat from its current set of orders... so the process starts again concerning depth..

Yeah - when I re-ran the test while underway at 2 knots or above, I indeed experienced a consistent 1-2m variation of actual depth to ordered depth (the former always being above the latter) across all sorts of depths from around 15 to around 150m. One odd thing I did note was that if I ordered "ahead slow" (first forward speed setting), I usually got 2 knots speed but sometimes (especially when ordering my boat lower) my speed would drop to 1 knot and my boat would never reach the ordered depth, usually staying about 15-20m above the ordered depth. I would have to manually click for 2 knots (on the secondary speed dial calibrated by knots rather than engine telegraph settings) before I would resume going at 2 knots and heading down to the ordered depth (or at least 1-2m above it anyway).

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

Concerning its impact on gameplay... it is dependant on the circumstance.

Yeah - I guess I should have said it's impact at dead stop wasn't likely to have much impact on my gameplay, which doesn't involve many situations where I'm at dead stop.

Any way, my personal conclusion from all this testing is that I'll just finish up my patrol with standard GWX without messing with these bouyancy fixes for now, except that I will tweak my periscope depth (and maybe my decks awash) setting to be a couple of meters lower than usual so I won't inadvertantly find myself poking out of the water when I order the boat to p-depth.

[Lanzfeld]

Does combining the mods effect the realistic surface dynamics of GWX?

[Ducimus]

I guess I should have said it's impact at dead stop wasn't likely to have much impact on my gameplay, which doesn't involve many situations where I'm at dead stop.

Ill be the first to admit im a gross abusing of partial neutral boyancy hovering in place along a targets track after making an end around A full positive boyance would effect harbor raiding too.


At any rate im hoping people test this combined mod out and post some feedback. Im going to fiddle with a type7 sometime tonight and see how it behaves.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Does combining the mods effect the realistic surface dynamics of GWX?

In all likelyhood... yes.

Anything (such as flooding) that changes the "mass" of the player U-boats as implemented in GWX will cause changes in physical behavior on the surface.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

Does combining the mods effect the realistic surface dynamics of GWX?

Im 99% positive it does not effect the surface dynamics of GWX. Thats the beauty of combinng the two mods, hey use different files. GWX's surface dynamics is in the sim files, the other mod uses the zon file.

EDIT: Lehamnn is allergic to anything from NYGM, and probably hasnt even looked at it.

And what im looking for here is people trying it out, not just assuming it wont work given its source.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Myxale

Did the testing, and indeed the rising starts after you stopped you engines for a time!
And from what i saw the Boot still has this nice surface dynamic.

Now if anyone else acutally tries it, please post your results. I think this is an idea worth pursuing but it needs feedback.

[Lanzfeld]

<Runs like hell>

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

<Runs like hell>

LOL that obvious huh?

[CCIP]

Would like to try out, but most likely can't due to lack of time - but yes, very intriguing.

[Ducimus]

After further testing heres what im finding.


If your at a depth of about 100 meters it takes about 30 mins or so for the boat to come to the surface. MUCH longer if at a deep depth.


Surface tension?

If at "ahead slow" (100 RPMS), an VIIC will not go more then about 10 meters regardless of ordered depth. It needs a little bit more speed (1/3rd) to dive. So you need more forward propulsion obviously. Personnaly i think this is a good behavior.

If at "ahead slow" (100 RPMS), an IXC will go deeper the 10 meters regardless of ordered depth, but it takes it ALOT longer. Presumably because the boat is bigger (displacement) hence will sink a little better then a type 7 with an equal amount of RPM (100 RPMS)

In both cases they dived at normal at 1/3rd.


220 meters seems to be a magic number
Positive boyancy was displayed up to 220 meters. 220 meters in SH3 seems to be some magical number.

In the GWX's model by itself, you could for instance order the boat to surface with the engines off, up to about 220 meters. Once you pass that mark, you need forward propulsion to gain depth. Ordering surface wont help. Emergecy ballast blow does.

In GWX's saddled with NYGM's you get similar behavior excpeting one thing. You apparently gain neutral boyance. For instance i have periscope depth set at 14 meters in the IXC config file. After goign to 220 meters under just GWX mod, periscope depth comes out to be 12 meters (which is why i set the config file to 14). Running both GWX's and NYGM's mod combined down to 220 meters and going to periscope depth afterwords, brings me at 14 meters. Exactly what i specified in the config file.


Surface handling
As per surface handling, i saw no change at all between GWX"s by itself or when it was paired with NYGM's. Checking the top speeds under a 4 kt winds, with and without NYGM's, the top speed and the time it takes to reach that top speed were the same, (timed it with a stopwatch), as was the total range the boat could travel.


Overall im not entirely sure what to think. It works, some of the results sound/feel realistic to me, but that 220 meter mark is throwing my feelings for it off somewhat. however the 220 meter mark effects both mods.

[Ducimus]

Well after more testing, im not sure if one was to call this trimmed down or broken. That funny feeling i got about that 220 mark was apparently well founded.

Here's what i found in regard to this.

If you dive to 220 meters, what happends is the boat gets trimmed down. You in action get true netural boyancy. If you have periscope depth in your config file set at 14 meters. thats exactly what you'll get when ordering periscope depth. Im pretty sure the positive rise near the surface is gone. (maybe ill go back and verify that)

Up until the 220 mark, the boat behaves as normal, except the positive boyancy will bring you all the way to the surface if you let it. But once you pass the 220 mark, im guessing the boat takes on a little bit of water that you can't see in the damage report screen. You seem to honestly and genuinly be trimmed down. So one could think of diving to 220 meters to get rid of the positive boyancy as a real god's honest trim dive. Pretty damn cool.

One small problem. You can't pump that water out. When on the surface again after divign to 220 to Trim the boat for a netural boyancy, your top surface speed will be reduced by about 3-4 kts. So in that part, Lehmann was partially correct.

I just wish i knew why 220 meters was a magical number to the game. I know in the past it was stated by DTB that the boats in SH3 do take on water, but a water leakage below a certain value isnt reported in the damage report screen.

So the one BIG drawback is the subs top surface speed is reduced by around 4 kts after doign a trim dive (220 + meters) . From a design standpoint, to put the subs top speed back to where it should be, it means increase the subs top speed in the sim file on the blind assumption that the player WILL do a trim dive. Likewise the player will know not to do a trim dive and have a 24-25 kt submarine. However, not going below 220 meters is going to rather hard to NOT do and expect to survive.


I think ill leave this open for discussion, im still collecting my thoughts. Not sure how i feel about it right now.

Of course one could always hope that NYGM and GWX teams got together and discussed this one out and ironed the minor details for the sake of a better submodel, everyone would bennfit i think.

Here here....and it would be about bloody time 'n all!

[Ducimus]

There yet may be bloody hope for this.

I reran a test with just NYGM's model and noticed the same behavior on the surface. (IE, loss in top speed because the boat was trimmed down and heavier) Purely out of accident i ran it at flank speed for a couple hours under TC, and something happened.

The boat picked up top speed and behaved as normal again.

I then reran a test with both mods combined.

The top speed was restored after about a couple hours!: up:


Im quite happy about that. This has the potential for maximum coolness.. Im running a few more tests to test what i beleive is neutral boyancy after a "trim dive" is in fact nuetural boyancy, as well as stand still behavior after going that deep.

[Lanzfeld]

I guess the couple of hours represents the pumping out of water?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Lanzfeld

I guess the couple of hours represents the pumping out of water?

I just psuedo timed it. Its about 1 hour.

What make testing this difficult is that a 7C and a 9C submarine behave differently.

For the VIIC heres what i noticed:

At "ahead slow" (100RPMS, aka silent speed), your positive bouancy is such that you do not have enough forward motion to go deeper then 10 meters. Its almost like your being held back by surface tension. At ahead 1/3rd, this is not a problem. Goes down like normal.

The positive boyancy is such that at "ahead slow" (100 RPMS), a type 7c doesnt maintain depth. It slowly draws upwards. In my mind a game breaker, however the saving grace is diving at or a bit past 220 meters.

Once you dive to 220 meters, the boat seems trimmed at pefect neutral boyancy. Going back up to periscope depth, the boat went to 14 meters. Exactly what i specfied in the cfg file. Stopping the engines, it didnt broach the surface. It just stayed put hovering.

About 1 hour in the surface and the boat was back to full positive boyancy.


For the IXC

The behavior is a bit different and im guessing what im seeing is the results of having a greater displacement.

At 100 RPMS, when ordered to dive, an IXC will also hang at 10 meters, however it eventualy push's itself down past that, where as a type 7 didnt in my testing.

At 100 RPMS, an IXC could maintain depth without any upward rise without a "trim dive".

After doing a "trim dive", an IXC still kept its slighly positive rise. Periscope depth ended at 13 meters even though i had specified 14 in the CFG file.

Theres one last behavor i need to test in this regard and it is this:

Normally with the GWX model by itself, if you ordered a depth of 15 meters at 1/3rd, but later on you wanted to raise your depth to say 13-14 meters, all you had to do, was lower your RPMS to have less forward motion (IE go from 1/3rd to ahead slow) and the boat would rise by a meter or two. If an IX has maintained some semblance of neutral boyancy, then it should maintain the same periscope depth regardless of forward motion . This is what i need to go back and test after diving to 220-230 meters.

I'll upload a new test file in a couple mins for othes to try, and then i gotta shut this puppy down and get my ass to work before im late.


EDIT:
Test version that has the 7C and 9C.
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/S...sics_TEST_b.7z

[Lanzfeld]

So what is the latest here. Are you using this combination in your game?