GWX & NYGM sub physics combined, some intresting results

Ducimus · 01-22-07, 02:41 PM

I don't know why, i just decided to combine the two to see what would happen. Ive talked abut it in the past, but was never intrested enough to try.

Well, now i did.

All i can say is..... wow.

First you have to understand how both sub models work.

GWX's sub model is primiarly changes in a sub's sim file that adds mass, and probably a couple other itemized changes that i didnt look close eough at the file to notice. The result is primarly more realistic surface performance, with a SLIGHT postive rise submerged. Essentually however, set your depth 2 meters lower then what you'd want, and it behaves just like stock.

NYGM's sub model works.. relatively the exact opposite. From my understanding what they did was to Neuter the type XXI by canabalizing the pumps from it. Then rezone the subs to include the type XXI's pumps, then set the pumps to as near as i can tell, slowly change the subs boyancy in a negative way to give a slight negative down draw. The result is that over time your boat slowly sinks deeper.

HOw the two work, i expected them to counteract each other.

Quite the oppsite, they seem to compliment each other, the trouble is im not sure if the result is desired play. I feel that it will infact make the game harder in some respects. I can say for certain that with both combined, you cannot bottom a boat. (not that bottoming helps anyway

)

The result is this:
Boats have a positive boyancy, and if you stop the engines you'll float right up to the surface over time. Say for example under just the NYGM model , i stop at 15 meters with 100 meters under the keel. Of the course of what im guessing is around 20 mins (maybe longer, i didnt measure the time), your boat will eventually bottom.

WIth the GWX and NYGM models combined, i can stop the boat at 100 meters of water, over the same time period (20 mins or longer), i will slowly rise to the surface if i sit at a dead stop with the motors off.

In either instance by restarting the motors, your sub will trim out at your last specified depth.

If you want to see this for yourself, ive uploaded a test module, the test boat is an IXC, so select that one in a single mission.

Files included:
- NYGM's zon file for the 9c
- GWX's zones.cfg with the pumpsXXI entry from NYGM
- A stock 9c sim file in the documentaton directory if you want to test the NYGM by itself as standalone. Just drop it in the same directory in this mod as the zon file.

D/L:
http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/SUB_Physics_TEST.7z

I think this is pretty damn cool.

geralt · 01-22-07, 03:03 PM

VERY interesting

are you able to sit on the bottom in pure GWX?
I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there...
is this impossible with NYGM+GW?

I like the new GWX physics and the NYGM idea that stopped sub should sink slowly.

But to be honest I couldn't live without bottoming.

Tikigod · 01-22-07, 03:15 PM

Is this a joke? or can you really do this? its hard to tell since so many people joke/chat on forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geralt

I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there...
is this impossible with NYGM+GW?

Ducimus · 01-22-07, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geralt

VERY interesting

are you able to sit on the bottom in pure GWX?
I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there...
is this impossible with NYGM+GW?

I like the new GWX physics and the NYGM idea that stopped sub should sink slowly.

But to be honest I couldn't live without bottoming.

Well in GWX, in reality you'd be sitting about 2 meters off the bottom and just hover there, but its still bottoming.

In NYGM by itself you can litterally bottom the boat, Flat on the bottom, with no water under the keel.

Both mods have the right idea, but neither one by itself is the complete deal in terms of sub physics in my opinion.. At least to my understanding, a submarine is trimmed for either Negative boyancy or positive boyance, with neutral possible but is realtiively hard to obtain.

Submarines in general go in two directions if out of batteries. Up or down. They need forward propulsion to maintain depth no matter what. As a saftey precaution, they tended to trim for a slight positive rise, with the forward motion over the hydroplanes keeping the boat at a depth. Think of hydroplanes being the underwater equivlant of wings on an airplane. A airplane just can't hover there, it needs forward motion to get an airflow (or in a subs case waterflow) over its wings to maintain its lift (or in subs case, depth).

Now personally i think both combined give the most realistic submarine model in the game based on what ive seen so far. Theres only one major problem, and thats we can't flood, or blow a negative dive tank. If we had a negative tank to flood, you could bottom the boat with both models combined. The other problem being that GWX fixed some items in the zon files. Which ones or how many i don't know, but an exampble being the "sonar destroyed" message in an IXD2.

Pesonnaly im willing to live with that for the sake of better physics. (its not like we havent lived with this bug for the last couple years anyway). Of course one could always hope that NYGM and GWX teams got together and discussed this one out and ironed the minor details for the sake of a better submodel, everyone would bennfit i think. I also think this makes the game a bit HARDER, and thats not something everyone would want.

Myxale · 01-22-07, 03:24 PM

Holy crap isn't working here! As soon as i can i'll test this mod of yours. Sweet hell!

Myxale · 01-22-07, 04:02 PM

Did the testing, and indeed the rising starts after you stopped you engines for a time!
And from what i saw the Boot still has this nice surface dynamic.

I just don't know ho deep that matter goes! Or what it breaks!

But it's just like ducimus says: The only question is if this is the player "desired" kind of play.
Since a sub is trimmed for pos. or neg. and we cannot have both here!

Here's a colaboration of master modder in order!

geralt · 01-22-07, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tikigod

Is this a joke? or can you really do this? its hard to tell since so many people joke/chat on forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by geralt

I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there...
is this impossible with NYGM+GW?

I've got no reason to cheat...
don't want to hijack this thread hope Ducimus won't mind few pics

game setup: SH3 1.4 + GWX + some minor mods mostly gui changes, some parts from Flavor to taste V5 etc.
naval academy artillery mission, shallow waters, sub VIIB
17:33 approaching the bottom

all men on the bow

17:35 sitting down

18:35 still here it's getting dark

03:12 CO2 level rises

06:18 still bottoming

13:23 after 20hours the CO2 level near red zone but still here

note the depth in low right corner is always 111m
also note the 'dive' position of hydropalnes on some pic (e.g. the last)

sorry for poor quality pics but I wanted to keep them as small as possible

so now I have to try this with the GWX+NYGM merged physics

Ducimus · 01-22-07, 04:52 PM

The boat is going to sit on the bottom regardless if you use GWX, "OR" NYGM's model. It may not sit perfectly on the bottom (or it may), that it's not like sitting with the hull in contact to the seafloor is cruicial. What's more, bottoming the boat DOES NOTHING as far as the AI is concerned in terms of evasion.

What id be intrested in is if moving all the crew to the forward compartments stops the positive rise with under both models combined like you suggest it does under GWX's model by itself. The thing is, in GWX, the positive rise is ONLY about 2 meters and it stops rising regardless of what you do with the crew. Im also highly skeptical that moving the crew around effects the trim of a boat in SH3. Theres nothing to suggest that the game's physics is modeled by ubi to that high of a degree.

Hartmann · 01-22-07, 04:59 PM

Interesting :hmm:

Sadly ,SH3 don´t have any trim tank or a option to obtain positive, negative or neutral buoiancy.
in AOD there is a bilge gauge with the water level, and in silent running the pumps are stopped.

With NYGM the XXI is broken ??...if the other boats use his pumps...

geralt · 01-22-07, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

The boat is going to sit on the bottom regardless if you use GWX, "OR" NYGM's model. It may not sit perfectly on the bottom (or it may), that it's not like sitting with the hull in contact to the seafloor is cruicial. What's more, bottoming the boat DOES NOTHING as far as the AI is concerned in terms of evasion.

What id be intrested in is if moving all the crew to the forward compartments stops the positive rise with under both models combined like you suggest it does under GWX's model by itself. The thing is, in GWX, the positive rise is ONLY about 2 meters and it stops rising regardless of what you do with the crew. Im also highly skeptical that moving the crew around effects the trim of a boat in SH3. Theres nothing to suggest that the game's physics is modeled by ubi to that high of a degree.

Maybe the it's easy to see on the pics but the sub is sitting right on the bottom not floating 2m above. NA says 0 meters under the keel.
Now I'm gonna test your IXC merged physics although I'm VII typ rider... will be back soon

Ducimus · 01-22-07, 05:11 PM

You maybe on to something with silent running. As i understand the XXIPump revamp was to give the boat a slight negative boyancy by introducing a slow trickle of flooding, thereby giving the boat a negative downdraft.

What i dont understand is how its working the exact opposite with GWX's model thrown in. What im saying is, if you have a theoritical flood, switch to silent running and the pumps stop. Eventually the slow trickle should give you a negative downdraft.

As for the type XXI itself, i personlly could care less as i detest that boat. But i know its some peoples favorite. Now If anyones experimenting with this test modlet, try silent running and see what happends.

panthercules · 01-22-07, 07:05 PM

Hmmm - seeing this post and the GWX neutral bouyancy thread got me interested in finding out what's really happening with the bouyancy modeling in GWX. So, before playing with this new combo mod or the neutral GWX fix, I just fired up my GWX install (using SH3 to change the water transparency to 20 - hope that didn't break something by accident) and played around with it - got some rather interesting results (all done with sea floor of 104m):

1. Initially, I dove to 100m and went to all stop. My boat slowly rose (over about 20 minutes) to 83m, and then stopped there, staying at that depth for several hours without rising further.

2. I noticed the dive planes were still showing "down", so I hit "A" - the dive planes leveled out, and the boat rose further - taking about 20 minutes to reach 69m and then stopping there for hours without rising any further.

3. I then ordered a depth of 105m by clicking on the depth dial - the boat sank slowly to 87m, then leveled out and stayed there for hours. I then ordered 118m - the boat sank to 98m and stayed there. I then ordered 130m, and the boat sank to 103m and sat about 1m off the sea floor for hours. I then ordered 140m, and the boat finally slowly settled onto the bottom and stayed there for hours - no damage was incurred.

4. I then ordered a depth of 88m - the boat rose to 73m and stayed there for hours.

5. From the surface, at dead stop, I ordered 104m. The boat descended to 87m and then stopped, staying there for hours.

6. All of the above was done with the crew evenly distributed as they would normally be. Just to check, I sent everyone forward and ordered some further descents. The pattern mentioned in 1-3 above repeated itself, without any change (boat stayed on even keel the whole time, just as it had before).

My conclusions? First, the depth-keeping/accuracy deviations of GWX seem to worsen at greater depths, as most people have focused on maybe a 2-3m difference near the surface, but this seems to have widened to somewhere around 20m at around 100m depth. Such depth variations could prove rather troublesome if you're trying to operate underway near the bottom - at least the error seems to be on the high side, which should lead to fewer bottom collisions than if the error were the other way around.

Second - I may have to try out the neutral bouyancy tweak to see if that fixes this behavior - I'd hate to give up some nice surface dynamics, but there's just something fundamentally distracting/disconcerting to me about not being able to rely on my crew to reach and maintain the depth I order.

But, third, I'm gonna have to try these depth-keeping tests while underway, because I never really go to "all stop" unless I'm trying to listen on my hydrophones (which only lasts a few seconds) or unless I'm trying to put the boat on the bottom for repairs, which this set of tests at least shows should be possible with GWX. So, if these depth variations only show up at dead stop, they really don't seem very significant to game play after all.

Kpt. Lehmann · 01-22-07, 07:17 PM

@Panthercules,

1.5 - 2.0 knots is required for "proper" depth keeping in GWX.

"All stop" at various depths does indeed produce the behavior you discuss.

Using the "A" (maintain current depth key) "releases" the U-boat from its current set of orders... so the process starts again concerning depth.

Concerning its impact on gameplay... it is dependant on the circumstance.

Ducimus · 01-22-07, 07:23 PM

Quote:

So, if these depth variations only show up at dead stop, they really don't seem very significant to game play after all.

The difference at a dead stop, at 100 meters, GWX by itself, you'll go up a few meters as youve cited, but then it will stay put. In both sytles (GWX or NYGM), the boat will eventually trim out at specified depth (GWX's being a meter or two shy of it) with a minium of forward movement.

When you combine the two mods, its total positive boyancy, meaning that at a dead stop at 100 meters (or more) You will eventually surface with your decks awash. GWX by itself, you never fully broach at a dead stop unless near periscope depth. Try the test modlet, you'll see what i mean. Personally i think the combination of the two is a diamond in the rough that could use some polishing.

geralt · 01-22-07, 07:24 PM

I've found something really schocking for me:
- clear GWX (no mods including *.zon or *.som files enabled)
- Naval Academy Artillery mission (NA missions load faster than single missions so I use them for testing)
- my VIIB is on the surface, speed 0kts, all stopped
- I ordered 'Dive' and the sub went down! holy cow

what's happening? OK I was the bottom (110m)
- I ordered 'Surface' and the sub went up like a air balloon I repeat at ALL STOPPED

whats wrong with my game?? if everything's OK why people said it's impossible to sit down on the bottom?

BIG SORRY for my post describing bottoming for hours

...

edit/ I've tried the same things with submarine *.sim *.zon files from the Flavored to taste V5 modpack and got the same results bottoming with no problems.
I was always moving when changing depth so I'm really surprised with this behavior...

In the case of using the new merged prysics in IXC I wasn't able to bottom the sub cos the bow was raising instantly.
I assume that placement of the crew has no influence. Everybody in the bow but still raising.

01-22-07, 02:41 PM	#1
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	GWX & NYGM sub physics combined, some intresting results I don't know why, i just decided to combine the two to see what would happen. Ive talked abut it in the past, but was never intrested enough to try. Well, now i did. All i can say is..... wow. First you have to understand how both sub models work. GWX's sub model is primiarly changes in a sub's sim file that adds mass, and probably a couple other itemized changes that i didnt look close eough at the file to notice. The result is primarly more realistic surface performance, with a SLIGHT postive rise submerged. Essentually however, set your depth 2 meters lower then what you'd want, and it behaves just like stock. NYGM's sub model works.. relatively the exact opposite. From my understanding what they did was to Neuter the type XXI by canabalizing the pumps from it. Then rezone the subs to include the type XXI's pumps, then set the pumps to as near as i can tell, slowly change the subs boyancy in a negative way to give a slight negative down draw. The result is that over time your boat slowly sinks deeper. HOw the two work, i expected them to counteract each other. Quite the oppsite, they seem to compliment each other, the trouble is im not sure if the result is desired play. I feel that it will infact make the game harder in some respects. I can say for certain that with both combined, you cannot bottom a boat. (not that bottoming helps anyway ) The result is this: Boats have a positive boyancy, and if you stop the engines you'll float right up to the surface over time. Say for example under just the NYGM model , i stop at 15 meters with 100 meters under the keel. Of the course of what im guessing is around 20 mins (maybe longer, i didnt measure the time), your boat will eventually bottom. WIth the GWX and NYGM models combined, i can stop the boat at 100 meters of water, over the same time period (20 mins or longer), i will slowly rise to the surface if i sit at a dead stop with the motors off. In either instance by restarting the motors, your sub will trim out at your last specified depth. If you want to see this for yourself, ive uploaded a test module, the test boat is an IXC, so select that one in a single mission. Files included: - NYGM's zon file for the 9c - GWX's zones.cfg with the pumpsXXI entry from NYGM - A stock 9c sim file in the documentaton directory if you want to test the NYGM by itself as standalone. Just drop it in the same directory in this mod as the zon file. D/L: http://www.ducimus.net/sh3/release/SUB_Physics_TEST.7z I think this is pretty damn cool.

01-22-07, 03:24 PM	#5
Myxale Admiral Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: PQ AN 25 Posts: 2,178 Downloads: 70 Uploads: 0	Holy crap isn't working here! As soon as i can i'll test this mod of yours. Sweet hell! __________________ SH3+GWX SH5+WoS Still Sailing....still Deep

01-22-07, 04:02 PM	#6
Myxale Admiral Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: PQ AN 25 Posts: 2,178 Downloads: 70 Uploads: 0	Did the testing, and indeed the rising starts after you stopped you engines for a time! And from what i saw the Boot still has this nice surface dynamic. I just don't know ho deep that matter goes! Or what it breaks! But it's just like ducimus says: The only question is if this is the player "desired" kind of play. Since a sub is trimmed for pos. or neg. and we cannot have both here! Here's a colaboration of master modder in order! __________________ SH3+GWX SH5+WoS Still Sailing....still Deep

01-22-07, 04:59 PM	#9
Hartmann Sea Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Grid CH 26, Spain ,Barcelona Posts: 1,857 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	Interesting :hmm: Sadly ,SH3 don´t have any trim tank or a option to obtain positive, negative or neutral buoiancy. in AOD there is a bilge gauge with the water level, and in silent running the pumps are stopped. With NYGM the XXI is broken ??...if the other boats use his pumps... __________________ But this ship can't sink!... She is made of iron, sir. I assure you, she can. and she will. It is a mathematical certainty. Strength and honor

01-22-07, 07:05 PM	#12
panthercules The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,336 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Hmmm - seeing this post and the GWX neutral bouyancy thread got me interested in finding out what's really happening with the bouyancy modeling in GWX. So, before playing with this new combo mod or the neutral GWX fix, I just fired up my GWX install (using SH3 to change the water transparency to 20 - hope that didn't break something by accident) and played around with it - got some rather interesting results (all done with sea floor of 104m): 1. Initially, I dove to 100m and went to all stop. My boat slowly rose (over about 20 minutes) to 83m, and then stopped there, staying at that depth for several hours without rising further. 2. I noticed the dive planes were still showing "down", so I hit "A" - the dive planes leveled out, and the boat rose further - taking about 20 minutes to reach 69m and then stopping there for hours without rising any further. 3. I then ordered a depth of 105m by clicking on the depth dial - the boat sank slowly to 87m, then leveled out and stayed there for hours. I then ordered 118m - the boat sank to 98m and stayed there. I then ordered 130m, and the boat sank to 103m and sat about 1m off the sea floor for hours. I then ordered 140m, and the boat finally slowly settled onto the bottom and stayed there for hours - no damage was incurred. 4. I then ordered a depth of 88m - the boat rose to 73m and stayed there for hours. 5. From the surface, at dead stop, I ordered 104m. The boat descended to 87m and then stopped, staying there for hours. 6. All of the above was done with the crew evenly distributed as they would normally be. Just to check, I sent everyone forward and ordered some further descents. The pattern mentioned in 1-3 above repeated itself, without any change (boat stayed on even keel the whole time, just as it had before). My conclusions? First, the depth-keeping/accuracy deviations of GWX seem to worsen at greater depths, as most people have focused on maybe a 2-3m difference near the surface, but this seems to have widened to somewhere around 20m at around 100m depth. Such depth variations could prove rather troublesome if you're trying to operate underway near the bottom - at least the error seems to be on the high side, which should lead to fewer bottom collisions than if the error were the other way around. Second - I may have to try out the neutral bouyancy tweak to see if that fixes this behavior - I'd hate to give up some nice surface dynamics, but there's just something fundamentally distracting/disconcerting to me about not being able to rely on my crew to reach and maintain the depth I order. But, third, I'm gonna have to try these depth-keeping tests while underway, because I never really go to "all stop" unless I'm trying to listen on my hydrophones (which only lasts a few seconds) or unless I'm trying to put the boat on the bottom for repairs, which this set of tests at least shows should be possible with GWX. So, if these depth variations only show up at dead stop, they really don't seem very significant to game play after all. __________________

01-22-07, 03:03 PM	#2
geralt Loader Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Czech rep. Posts: 90 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	VERY interesting are you able to sit on the bottom in pure GWX? I've done it by ordering all men to fore compartments and giving the order to dive to adjust the dive planes to diving position when sitting down there... is this impossible with NYGM+GW? I like the new GWX physics and the NYGM idea that stopped sub should sink slowly. But to be honest I couldn't live without bottoming.

01-22-07, 04:52 PM	#8
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	The boat is going to sit on the bottom regardless if you use GWX, "OR" NYGM's model. It may not sit perfectly on the bottom (or it may), that it's not like sitting with the hull in contact to the seafloor is cruicial. What's more, bottoming the boat DOES NOTHING as far as the AI is concerned in terms of evasion. What id be intrested in is if moving all the crew to the forward compartments stops the positive rise with under both models combined like you suggest it does under GWX's model by itself. The thing is, in GWX, the positive rise is ONLY about 2 meters and it stops rising regardless of what you do with the crew. Im also highly skeptical that moving the crew around effects the trim of a boat in SH3. Theres nothing to suggest that the game's physics is modeled by ubi to that high of a degree.

01-22-07, 05:11 PM	#11
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	You maybe on to something with silent running. As i understand the XXIPump revamp was to give the boat a slight negative boyancy by introducing a slow trickle of flooding, thereby giving the boat a negative downdraft. What i dont understand is how its working the exact opposite with GWX's model thrown in. What im saying is, if you have a theoritical flood, switch to silent running and the pumps stop. Eventually the slow trickle should give you a negative downdraft. As for the type XXI itself, i personlly could care less as i detest that boat. But i know its some peoples favorite. Now If anyones experimenting with this test modlet, try silent running and see what happends.

01-22-07, 07:17 PM	#13
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,993 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	@Panthercules, 1.5 - 2.0 knots is required for "proper" depth keeping in GWX. "All stop" at various depths does indeed produce the behavior you discuss. Using the "A" (maintain current depth key) "releases" the U-boat from its current set of orders... so the process starts again concerning depth. Concerning its impact on gameplay... it is dependant on the circumstance. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

01-22-07, 07:24 PM	#15
geralt Loader Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Czech rep. Posts: 90 Downloads: 24 Uploads: 0	I've found something really schocking for me: - clear GWX (no mods including .zon or .som files enabled) - Naval Academy Artillery mission (NA missions load faster than single missions so I use them for testing) - my VIIB is on the surface, speed 0kts, all stopped - I ordered 'Dive' and the sub went down! holy cow what's happening? OK I was the bottom (110m) - I ordered 'Surface' and the sub went up like a air balloon I repeat at ALL STOPPED whats wrong with my game?? if everything's OK why people said it's impossible to sit down on the bottom? BIG SORRY for my post describing bottoming for hours ... edit/ I've tried the same things with submarine .sim .zon files from the Flavored to taste V5 modpack and got the same results bottoming with no problems. I was always moving when changing depth so I'm really surprised with this behavior... In the case of using the new merged prysics in IXC I wasn't able to bottom the sub cos the bow was raising instantly. I assume that placement of the crew has no influence. Everybody in the bow but still raising. Last edited by geralt; 01-22-07 at 07:58 PM.