Ship sinking in SH3 ?

Ritmeister · 10-21-09, 06:54 AM

I;m realtive new to SH3 and have been having a great time with both GWX 3 and the new War Ace 4.1 mods. I did a search and can't find anything regarding the modification of how or the way ships sink in SH3. In SH4 is called natural sinking mechanics. Hans Solo ( thanks for WarAce Hans) ansewerd that the system for SH3 is stock. I take this to be a hit points type system but I;mm certainly no expert. GWX "seems" to handle it better.

Has anyone ever done or attempted to mod the natural sinking of ships in SH3 or isn't it possible? Certainly Im not qualified since I never even attempted a mod. It's just very intersting to me to be able feel the effects or critical and non critical hits on ships. I have tried the SH4 mod and it seems to work very well.

Philipp_Thomsen · 10-21-09, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ritmeister

I;m realtive new to SH3 and have been having a great time with both GWX 3 and the new War Ace 4.1 mods. I did a search and can't find anything regarding the modification of how or the way ships sink in SH3. In SH4 is called natural sinking mechanics. Hans Solo ( thanks for WarAce Hans) ansewerd that the system for SH3 is stock. I take this to be a hit points type system but I;mm certainly no expert. GWX "seems" to handle it better.

Has anyone ever done or attempted to mod the natural sinking of ships in SH3 or isn't it possible? Certainly Im not qualified since I never even attempted a mod. It's just very intersting to me to be able feel the effects or critical and non critical hits on ships. I have tried the SH4 mod and it seems to work very well.

You can trust GWX 3.0 or 2.1 handles it very close to what was in real life. At least in the part that is "moddable" in game.

flakmonkey · 10-21-09, 05:06 PM

Im pretty sure GWX uses the flooding method from NYGM, or at least some evolution of it.
Critical hits are much less likley, instead ships have compartments that will start to flood if hit by a torpedo or shelfire below the waterline.
Ive hit ships and then watched them sink over several hours or even in a couple of cases days!

*edit* This big chunk of text is taken from the GWX manual...

Lessons learned from The Grey Wolves V1.0 – 1.1a Ships in GWX can sink in three ways:
1. from flooding inside a ship that exceeds a critical level (buoyancy becomes negative)
2. from a critical hit that causes the complete destruction of one or more compartments
3. losing too much overall structural integrity

The original Grey Wolves (TGW) shared the damage model developed for ―Not Your Grandmother‘s Mod‖ (NYGM), which focused on sinking ships through flooding effects, with a lesser emphasis on critical hits than in stock Silent Hunter III and very little ability to destroy a ship through structural damage. NYGM accomplished this by reducing the probability and effect of critical hits and by giving all merchant ships 2160 hit points compared to the normal range in stock Silent Hunter III of 250 to 300 hit points, effectively eliminating the possibility that a ship would sink through accumulated structural damage. This approach achieved its objectives but had some unintended side effects when used in TGW:
• The damage caused by one torpedo was limited to one compartment, so that hitting the same ship compartment with a second torpedo produced only a small amount of new overall damage (compared to a ship‘s total structural integrity) and no additional flooding.

The Grey Wolves Expansion V3.0 Gold 65
• It was nearly impossible to sink a merchant ship with the deck gun unless a player could consistently obtain hits at the water line. This was not generally an issue in TGW since the deck gun in TGW was highly accurate; however, the introduction of Real World Gunnery in GWX greatly increased the difficulty of hitting targets (such as a ship‘s waterline) with great accuracy.
　
• A number of players reported that sinking a ship could take many hours or days, even with multiple torpedo hits. Historical examples of such behavior certainly exist, but these seemed to be historical outliers compared to the number of occurrences reported in TGW.

Resisting damage One torpedo would generally suffice historically to sink a small- to medium-sized ship; few required more than two torpedo hits. Merchant ships were (and are) supposed to carry as much cargo as possible at the lowest initial and operating cost; they are not supposed to withstand battle damage. Shipyards built them as rapidly as possible using low-cost materials, and the high cost of ship maintenance meant that older ships could be literal rust buckets provided they could still haul the goods. The shipyards used modular construction techniques to build Liberty- and Victory-class ships at a record pace, but the time pressures could result in poor fitting and welding between the modules that would comprise the ship. GWX gives ships more hit points than in stock Silent Hunter III so that ships will sink due to flooding more often than due to a loss of structural integrity, but there are few enough hit points that a second torpedo hit on a merchant ship will likely sink it. Each ship also has certain weak spots that players can exploit to an extent, but variations in torpedo damage can allow a ship to survive a hit even on these vulnerable areas. The GWX team derived the number of hit points, weak spots, and damage resistance parameters for some stock warships and each aircraft, merchant ship type, and warship introduced by GWX on the assumption that ships of each type are of a similar size and age, and therefore have similar sinking and flooding characteristics. GWX divided the merchant ships into the following categories:

• small merchant ships
• medium merchant ships
• large merchant ships
• small tankers
• medium and large tankers
• passenger liners
• ammunition ships
• coastal vessels (including tugboats)
• fishing boats
• patrol craft

Torpedoes in GWX will cause varying amounts of damage depending on whether they were using an impact or a magnetic pistol, and the depth of the torpedo when it exploded. Most ships in GWX will sink within a reasonable amount of time when flooding exceeds a critical level, though the critical level will vary depending on the part of the ship that was hit. The GWX team notes that tankers had highly diverse levels of damage resistance, and that the SH3 damage model reflects this variability. For example, tankers could carry anything from inert water, to thick crude or fuel oil, to 100-octane aviation gasoline; in addition, shipyards built (and still build) tankers to move large amounts of liquid, so a tanker will not necessarily sink if a torpedo merely puts a hole in its side while it is carrying water as ballast.

Ritmeister · 10-22-09, 06:07 AM

Thanks for lookin up that info. I got a reply from HansSolo 78 about WAC and he says it uses the same model as the stock game. Which is hit point based. I did also get out the GWX manual later today and read what you posted. I find this model very realistic and satisfying. Some sinkings occur a looonnng time after a hit because of continuous flooding, heavy seas or a critical itnternal explosion.

Here's hoping SH5 uses a similar or even more advanced system!

10-23-09, 06:59 AM

Do you happen to know which zone in the zones.cfg is the water ballast zone flak monkey ?

10-21-09, 06:54 AM	#1
Ritmeister Seaman Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 39 Downloads: 111 Uploads: 0	Ship sinking in SH3 ? I;m realtive new to SH3 and have been having a great time with both GWX 3 and the new War Ace 4.1 mods. I did a search and can't find anything regarding the modification of how or the way ships sink in SH3. In SH4 is called natural sinking mechanics. Hans Solo ( thanks for WarAce Hans) ansewerd that the system for SH3 is stock. I take this to be a hit points type system but I;mm certainly no expert. GWX "seems" to handle it better. Has anyone ever done or attempted to mod the natural sinking of ships in SH3 or isn't it possible? Certainly Im not qualified since I never even attempted a mod. It's just very intersting to me to be able feel the effects or critical and non critical hits on ships. I have tried the SH4 mod and it seems to work very well.

10-21-09, 05:06 PM	#3
flakmonkey Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Staffordshire, Uk Posts: 944 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	Im pretty sure GWX uses the flooding method from NYGM, or at least some evolution of it. Critical hits are much less likley, instead ships have compartments that will start to flood if hit by a torpedo or shelfire below the waterline. Ive hit ships and then watched them sink over several hours or even in a couple of cases days! edit This big chunk of text is taken from the GWX manual... Lessons learned from The Grey Wolves V1.0 – 1.1a Ships in GWX can sink in three ways: 1. from flooding inside a ship that exceeds a critical level (buoyancy becomes negative) 2. from a critical hit that causes the complete destruction of one or more compartments 3. losing too much overall structural integrity The original Grey Wolves (TGW) shared the damage model developed for ―Not Your Grandmother‘s Mod‖ (NYGM), which focused on sinking ships through flooding effects, with a lesser emphasis on critical hits than in stock Silent Hunter III and very little ability to destroy a ship through structural damage. NYGM accomplished this by reducing the probability and effect of critical hits and by giving all merchant ships 2160 hit points compared to the normal range in stock Silent Hunter III of 250 to 300 hit points, effectively eliminating the possibility that a ship would sink through accumulated structural damage. This approach achieved its objectives but had some unintended side effects when used in TGW: • The damage caused by one torpedo was limited to one compartment, so that hitting the same ship compartment with a second torpedo produced only a small amount of new overall damage (compared to a ship‘s total structural integrity) and no additional flooding. The Grey Wolves Expansion V3.0 Gold 65 • It was nearly impossible to sink a merchant ship with the deck gun unless a player could consistently obtain hits at the water line. This was not generally an issue in TGW since the deck gun in TGW was highly accurate; however, the introduction of Real World Gunnery in GWX greatly increased the difficulty of hitting targets (such as a ship‘s waterline) with great accuracy. 　 • A number of players reported that sinking a ship could take many hours or days, even with multiple torpedo hits. Historical examples of such behavior certainly exist, but these seemed to be historical outliers compared to the number of occurrences reported in TGW. Resisting damage One torpedo would generally suffice historically to sink a small- to medium-sized ship; few required more than two torpedo hits. Merchant ships were (and are) supposed to carry as much cargo as possible at the lowest initial and operating cost; they are not supposed to withstand battle damage. Shipyards built them as rapidly as possible using low-cost materials, and the high cost of ship maintenance meant that older ships could be literal rust buckets provided they could still haul the goods. The shipyards used modular construction techniques to build Liberty- and Victory-class ships at a record pace, but the time pressures could result in poor fitting and welding between the modules that would comprise the ship. GWX gives ships more hit points than in stock Silent Hunter III so that ships will sink due to flooding more often than due to a loss of structural integrity, but there are few enough hit points that a second torpedo hit on a merchant ship will likely sink it. Each ship also has certain weak spots that players can exploit to an extent, but variations in torpedo damage can allow a ship to survive a hit even on these vulnerable areas. The GWX team derived the number of hit points, weak spots, and damage resistance parameters for some stock warships and each aircraft, merchant ship type, and warship introduced by GWX on the assumption that ships of each type are of a similar size and age, and therefore have similar sinking and flooding characteristics. GWX divided the merchant ships into the following categories: • small merchant ships • medium merchant ships • large merchant ships • small tankers • medium and large tankers • passenger liners • ammunition ships • coastal vessels (including tugboats) • fishing boats • patrol craft Torpedoes in GWX will cause varying amounts of damage depending on whether they were using an impact or a magnetic pistol, and the depth of the torpedo when it exploded. Most ships in GWX will sink within a reasonable amount of time when flooding exceeds a critical level, though the critical level will vary depending on the part of the ship that was hit. The GWX team notes that tankers had highly diverse levels of damage resistance, and that the SH3 damage model reflects this variability. For example, tankers could carry anything from inert water, to thick crude or fuel oil, to 100-octane aviation gasoline; in addition, shipyards built (and still build) tankers to move large amounts of liquid, so a tanker will not necessarily sink if a torpedo merely puts a hole in its side while it is carrying water as ballast. __________________

10-22-09, 06:07 AM	#4
Ritmeister Seaman Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 39 Downloads: 111 Uploads: 0	Thanks for lookin up that info. I got a reply from HansSolo 78 about WAC and he says it uses the same model as the stock game. Which is hit point based. I did also get out the GWX manual later today and read what you posted. I find this model very realistic and satisfying. Some sinkings occur a looonnng time after a hit because of continuous flooding, heavy seas or a critical itnternal explosion. Here's hoping SH5 uses a similar or even more advanced system!

10-23-09, 06:59 AM	#5
roadhogg Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Do you happen to know which zone in the zones.cfg is the water ballast zone flak monkey ?