Two Luftwaffe Eurofighters collide in midair and crash both

[Skybird]

https://www.dw.com/en/two-eurofighte...any/a-49332147


Not many fighters we have, and of these not many are even capable to fly, so these two losses count double if not triple. At least one pilot was fopund alive, haning in the trees, that the other also was already found is not confirmed by every media at this point.



Other media say that at least on one crash site a wild fire has broken out in the forest. I hope it does not get as bad as last year when live firing exercises into a dried forest with missiles led to fire that rampaged for over two months and showed equipment of th Bundeswehr sent to the location breaking down repeatedly. We have a heat wave over here with temps expected to go beyond 40°C this week, and in that region the soil and forests already are as dry again as "dry" can mean.

[ikalugin]

May they rest in peace.


Improving technical readiness may be a good idea.

[Dmitry Markov]

Our mass media tells that one pilot is found alive, but they're still in search for the other one. Hope everyone will be ok.

[Jimbuna]

The third planes pilot stated they observed two open parachutes so hopefully the second pilot will be found safe and sound.

[Skybird]

One pilot confirmed alive, one now confirmed dead. Both ejected.

[Jimbuna]

The second pilot was reported to have died, by German broadcaster n-tv.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...crash-17141212

Blue Skies

[Skybird]

While the research for the cause of the accident has just started and the Luftwaffe still sends troops, researchers, military police and the likes to the locations, and politicians say they want to wait for the results of the investigation and that will take days at least, media already try to trigger the early blame game. Always mentioned gets of course that of 128 Eurofighters last year just 39 were ready for operation, and according to some reports - which the defence ministry refused to comment on and thr Luftwaffe deflected any questions on - it in fact were even as few as just 4. The base commander or squsadron commaneder also was on TV just minutes ago and confirmed that of 150 planned flying hours per pilot, last year less than 100 actually were flown - and he said explcvitly that the reduction in flying hours causes clear and present deficits in pilots' skills.



The big issue with the Eurofighter is that the wepain systems still are unreliable despite the plane beign in service since 15 years now, and that spare parts are short or even unavailable. The latter is a proboem that haunts all branches of the armed forces and practically all carrier platforms. The logistical reserves of the Bundeswehr are said to be not just zero, "but negative". What that means is described by the German phrase "auf Verschleiß fahren". True for the German railway. True for the German bridges and highway network. True for the armed forces. I do not know an English translation for the phrase. It means to run systems and hardware in a way that they are not maintained to prolongue their longevity, but that they get managed by almost self-cannibalization, shortening their life expectancy. The longer you do so, the harder it gets to ever get it repaired again and back into shape.


That is the media trying to pull a sensatiopnal story. But these truths now presented again, are old news and not unheard of before. Whether the accident today is due to these causes, so far is unclear.

[Dmitry Markov]

Skybird, Sorry for second pilot and welcome to the club (( When our AF started to become looking more or less an AF again after 90-s and 00-s, number of flights raised instantly while technical maintenance wasn't ready and as a result - a phenomenon called "самолётопад" ( a planefall) which took place in early 10-s. Another example of this way of household is a late-Soviet agricultural sector - machinery was supplied to MTS's (Machine-Tractor Stations or Repair Tractor Stations) according to 5-year plan and these supplies were usually fullfilled, but that was not true for the spare-parts supplies plan. Of course some basic details could be produced at MTS's with local equipment but with growing sophisitication of agro-machinery list of these details was shortening. So it led to spares-cannibalism, and in some cases it was easier not to repair a machine (which is needed only 1 time a year in most cases) and to wait for next supply of machinery which can be of the next generation. In lots of cases this led to aggregates were left right by the sides of the field where they were broken so our rural landscapes in late 80-s - early 90-s aquired look of post-War of Giant Robots kind of landscape ;-) and it remained that way until late 90's - early 00's.

[Skybird]

Over here, after reunification German giovernments used to abuse the military as a fincial reserve they coukd plunder for other puproses, and so the budget dried out. Und defence minister Guttenberg at the latest the manasgment principle became "a few and as little as possible", and "one equipment item for sevcerla troops/units", the item being rotated around". The lack of spare parts was declaqred a management virtue, no stockpiles neededn o warehouse management, and so more cutting of costs.



That for example one NVG cannot be used by several soldiers simultaneously, was not understood. Platforms and carrier system got further cannibalized: "kill two or three to get one functional".



Specific bureaucratic mchnaism in the ministry hinder further reofmrs and improvements: too many cooks spoil the brew. Germany today has more generals than the German Wehrmacht at the height of WW2. All of them want their privileges, their prestige, their pensions, their say in something. Finally came defence ministress von der Leyen, a little children doctor mummy not knowing anythign about defence and military and wanting to prove the worlds what a tough guy a little girl can be. She introduced even more civilian advuisors form business companies that a fortune get wasted on, and cared a lot for cosmetic mirrors for the troops in their lockers, to make the army attractive for female soldiers. While she was busy with the femenist revolution in the army, severla projects i her house saw no imrovment in amanagement and mi9nisterial surveillance, but even went com0pletely out of hand, for exmaple the restoratipon of the training sialijg ship of the German Navy, the Gorch ****: costs for it exploded from planned 10 million to over 130 million. Its symptomatic for how the defence ministry ticks.



Last year I linked to numbers on how huge the quantity of non-functional carrier platforms in the individual weapon branches is. Its saddening, and ridiculous. May it be the danes, the Poles or the Czechs or Swiss: all these neighbours spend less money on defence, but get so much better numbers in functional systems and combat readiness. SAomething goes terribly wrong in the German system, and its a systemtic, a structural fault. As fearsome as the efficiency of the German army in WW2 may have been - today, its successor has swung like a pendulum from the one extreme to the other. I must say the Germany qualify as the biggest joke in the NATO alliance. And nobody seems to waste its money nicier, than the Germans.



I once red a text by a former Eastgerman officer, who some time after reunification and as a pensioneer went to the Bundeswehr and gave it a privately interested closer inspection, as a hobby historian. He said he was shocked at how bad the status was already back then, during the cold war. He said the WP expected something completely different from the Westgerman forces. Well. He said as a former professional soldier and officer, he found what he saw "disgusting".

[ikalugin]

It helps if you have valid conscription model.


As to the readiness - Germans are notoriously bad for it, reminds me of that RAND study where Germany was said to be able to field only one brigade of ground forces and even that after canabalising other units for equipment etc.

[ikalugin]

It appears that Germany procured 140 (?) EFTs.
Note that with now broadly similar GDP PPP Russia has procured in 2008-2018 over 300 modern 4th gen aircraft (with majority of deliveries in the 2nd half of that time period):

 

Which would allow us to fully modernise our entire fighter force soon, while maintaining some nichie legacy aircraft after their modernisation such as:
- MiG31K Kinzhal delivery aircraft
- MiG31B(S)M interceptor
- Su24M(G) and Su24M2 bombers (which are now being run out of their useful airframe and engine life in Syria before being writen off)
- Su25SM(3)
- various long range bombers