No S-Class?

[Zachstar]

Used the other as a template.

DD: Silent Hunter IV aims to give an accurate representation of the US submarine campaign against Japan. Taking both this, and our own development schedule, into consideration, we chose the most representative US fleet boat classes: P-class, Tambor, Salmon, and Gato. Of course, each of them will come with several development variations."

This is not cool in the least bit! In SH3 you got small coastal style boats with limited rangle and torpedo load to start with. I don't find it fair in the least bit! I wanted to start the war in an S-Class sub.. :damn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_S_class_submarine

http://www.valoratsea.com/Sclass1.htm

http://www.valoratsea.com/Sclass_small1.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2503/boatzh5.jpg

Virtual Sailor add-on by TLAM Strike

Do ya think we might be able to add in in with mods this time?

[Safe-Keeper]

I suppose I'll just have to port the Type II:p.

But yes, this is pretty disappointing. I loved the Type II, and I love "underdog" vessels in general. Hopefully someone will mod it in, or maybe a patch, booster-pack or expansion-pack will add it.

[Sailor Steve]

I agree. I may start having reservation about my unqualified excitement. No 'S-Boat' may even lead to my questioning how badly I want to play the game.

[Safe-Keeper]

It's understandable somehow, though. How much of your time in Silent Hunter III was spent in a Type II? Your first two or three patrols and two academy missions. No single-player missions, nearly no patrols, and probably not that many multi-player sorties.

Sure, in Grey Wolves I've undertaken 25 patrols in a Type II (first a II-A, then a II-D), but in the Vanilla game, nearly nothing. And I fear this is how most players want it. Personally I love the Type II for its charm, underdog appeal, and realism (it seems far more real than the other boats to me due to its "simplistic" and cramped appearance), but I fear that most players will prefer the "real" submarines over it.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Vanila?:-?

[Sailor Steve]

Vanilla=Stock game, like vanilla ice cream with nothing on it.

[Gizzmoe]

Vanila?:-?

Vanilla = unmodded.

[WilhelmSchulz.]

Hey I like Vanila!:up:

[Rab09]

In the fall of 1941, Subs based out of Manila Bay were; siw S-class, seven P-class and tweleve Salmons. No Tambor class boats at all. While in Pearl Harbor there were; six old V-boats, three P-boats and six of the new Tambor class boats. The V-boats played an important roll through out the war and S-boats were used through all of 1942.
To only include the boats from Tambor class forword is not acording to history.

[ricnunes]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.

[bigboywooly]

They are not even gonna include any Dutch\Brit or Jap subs either
You would have liked to think they have learnt something by now :nope:
Even if they werent playable but it would have been nice to play for different nations

[Jotte]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.
It said that the war STARTS with Pearl Harbour, timewise. But it didn´t say that Pearl Harbour had to be the starting location.

From the SubSim interview:

Michael Patton, 53, US: Are you going to start the war prior to Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor & is Pearl Harbor going to be an operating submarine base?

SH4 Dev Team: The war will always start with Pearl Harbor, we can’t change that. And so will our campaign. The full list of bases to be included as starting points for player’s campaign sorties is not decided yet.

-------

Considering the amount of work it is to build 3d interiors its not surprising they had to draw the line somewere. We had 3 diffrent interiors in SH3, now we get 4 from the looks of it, and people still complain.....:roll:

[Safe-Keeper]

They are not even gonna include any Dutch\Brit or Jap subs either
You would have liked to think they have learnt something by now :nope:They only have so much time, money, and effort.

They could either include the variety of US subs they included and no foreign subs, or they could include only one and two US subs and several foreign subs - in which case there'd be people whining about the lack of playable American submarines.

It's the rock and a hard place for them - they knew they'd get people mad at them either way - but I think they made the right decision. And think about it, instead of making the modders add new US subs with interiors and everything, they "only" have to add foreign subs, which requires less effort as there's no 3D interior or anything to add.

[bigboywooly]

They are not even gonna include any Dutch\Brit or Jap subs either
You would have liked to think they have learnt something by now :nope:They only have so much time, money, and effort.

They could either include the variety of US subs they included and no foreign subs, or they could include only one and two US subs and several foreign subs - in which case there'd be people whining about the lack of playable American submarines.

It's the rock and a hard place for them - they knew they'd get people mad at them either way - but I think they made the right decision. And think about it, instead of making the modders add new US subs with interiors and everything, they "only" have to add foreign subs, which requires less effort as there's no 3D interior or anything to add.

But they are not even adding any AI subs from any nation either

Besides time is not a factor
We would all wait longer for the right game rather than have half a game earlier

[John Pancoast]

They are not even gonna include any Dutch\Brit or Jap subs either
You would have liked to think they have learnt something by now :nope:They only have so much time, money, and effort.

They could either include the variety of US subs they included and no foreign subs, or they could include only one and two US subs and several foreign subs - in which case there'd be people whining about the lack of playable American submarines.

It's the rock and a hard place for them - they knew they'd get people mad at them either way - but I think they made the right decision. And think about it, instead of making the modders add new US subs with interiors and everything, they "only" have to add foreign subs, which requires less effort as there's no 3D interior or anything to add.

But they are not even adding any AI subs from any nation either

Besides time is not a factor
We would all wait longer for the right game rather than have half a game earlier

:) "Us" waiting isn't the time problem. Them having to pay bills, and needing the game to help pay them, is.

[Safe-Keeper]

But they are not even adding any AI subs from any nation eitherAs I said: They're short on time.

I don't think they'd willingly let such a feature lie.

Besides time is not a factor
We would all wait longer for the right game rather than have half a game earlierAs John says, the developers are on a payroll. The longer they take to finish the game, the more they have to be paid.

[ricnunes]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.
It said that the war STARTS with Pearl Harbour, timewise. But it didn´t say that Pearl Harbour had to be the starting location.

From the SubSim interview:

Michael Patton, 53, US: Are you going to start the war prior to Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor & is Pearl Harbor going to be an operating submarine base?

SH4 Dev Team: The war will always start with Pearl Harbor, we can’t change that. And so will our campaign. The full list of bases to be included as starting points for player’s campaign sorties is not decided yet.

-------

Considering the amount of work it is to build 3d interiors its not surprising they had to draw the line somewere. We had 3 diffrent interiors in SH3, now we get 4 from the looks of it, and people still complain.....:roll:

Guess, I misread the interview. Thanks for clearing up my doubts about the starting bases!

Nevertheless I hope that they don't forget the Phillippines sub base and I also hope they'll add the S-Class sub since it's an essencial sub if the Phillippines sub bases is to be added into the game.

Regading the number of submarines, first I'm not complaining I'm only requesting that the most important US subs of the WWII Pacific be included and thing that now that you mention happens in SH3! In SH3 you have ALL the most important German Subs (Type II, Type VII, Type IX and Type XXI, which in total are 4 main sub types) so what I ask here is that in SH4 the most importat US sub be added too and these most important US subs are (I believe most here agree) all the mentioned in the interview plus the S-Class (the one that I request here) and the Balao (the most important US sub of the later part of the war).

[Rab09]

If you take away the S-boats, P-boats, V-boats, you take away the first year of the war!! It wasn't till end of 1942 that you had any Tambor class boats in numbers and theses were split between Pearl Harbor and Australia (Darwin in early '42, Brisbane and Fremantle mid to late '42). Without these boats you also would not be able to Historicaly defend the Philippines, Java, Wake Island, Midway, The Battle of Lingayen Gulf, Battle of the Coral Sea. Seems like there will be alot of early war action that will not be historicaly correct, which would be a shame!!

[Sailor Steve]

If you take away the S-boats, P-boats, V-boats, you take away the first year of the war!!
I agree, but I'm confused on one thing you've said twice now: what is a V-boat?

[Rab09]

If you take away the S-boats, P-boats, V-boats, you take away the first year of the war!! I agree, but I'm confused on one thing you've said twice now: what is a V-boat?

V-boats were 342ft long and 2,000tons (V1-V3) which were renamed Barracuda, Bass and Bonita. The next three were V4-V6 (at 371'-381' long and 2,700tons), renamed Argonaut, Narwhal, Nautilus, also Dolphin (V-7) (Dolpin was also around 1,100tons and M.A.N. powered), Cachalot (V-8) and Cuttlefish (V-9) (Cachalot and Cuttlefish were 1,100ton boats powered by M.A.N. diesels). At Pearl Harbor in the fall of 1941 were six V-boats; Argonaut, Nautilus, Narwhal, Dolphin, Cachalot and Cuttlefish. These boats also carried 2 x 5" deck guns. Slow, hard to manage. V-1, V-2, V-3 built in 1925-1926. V4, V-5 and V-6 were commissioned in the late 1920s.

Hope that helps, Salute Sir:)

[Capt. D]

If you take away the S-boats, P-boats, V-boats, you take away the first year of the war!! I agree, but I'm confused on one thing you've said twice now: what is a V-boat?
"Using the war prizes as models (WWI UBoats), the US Navy in 1921 began building nine enormous fleet submarines of the V class. The boats took 12 years to complete - at the uprecedented cost of $6.5 million each. The behemoth of the class was the 381 foot V4 - or the Argonaut, the largest diesel submarine ever built in the United States. The mammoth boats failed to live up to the Navy's expectations. Their flaws were many. Said the skipper of one of the V class submarines: 'They wre too large for easy handling, too slow in submerging, and too easily seen as targets.'" - From 'War Under The Pacific'

The Argonaut was commissioned on 4.2.28 and was sunk on 1.1.43 with no vessels sunk while commissioned. Also the Dolphin and Cachalot class subs were avaliable but did not play any major role in the war. The Cachalot class subs were only 1170 tons but did not have the 12,000 mile range to Japan and back. Each conducted 3 non productive patrols and were turned over to training duties. If we want to have boats that were part of the War and played important parts why not include the Narwal and the Nautilus who were part of many 'special missions'.

I must agree that we need to have the S-Boat as part of the 'package'. Of 22 S boats available 10 sunk at least one vessel and S44 sank 3 for 17,070 tons. These boats were stationed throughout the Pacific at the start of the war and were the major source of our offensive "punch" prior to the Tambors coming on line. I liked the feature in SH that put you in command of an actual WWII boat from the S class through the Tench class.

This must include the P, Salmon/Sargo, Tambor, & Gato class boats. The Balaos - though a major class in the war - were identical to the Gato except they were slightly redesigned internally to facilitate prefab and their presure hulls allowed for an additional 100 ft of operating depth for a max of 400 Ft. The Tenches - and only a few made patrols - varied somewhat in internal layout, otherwise identical to the other two. As I mentioned, SH assigned you to a boat (real boat of WWII) and you may have had the option to take a Balao class boat as a promotion however with a 'green' crew. You were promoted from class to class as the war progressed in SH, make it the same in SH4. If the boat has a max depth of 400 ft you know you are on a Balao!

Happy Hunting :ping:

[MadMike]

A quick check of boat histories in Wikipedia shows nearly all Sargo class boats were at Manila (Cavite) when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
Several Tambor class boats were at Pearl or on patrol when hostilities started.
Too bad the game won't have the S-class, would be interesting patrolling the Aleutians... wait, don't tell me the Aleutians-Paramushiro route won't be an option?!?

Good article here-

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/n87/usw/issue_18/forgotten.htm

Yours, Mike

[Steeltrap]

I have to take a different view of things: if there were 22 S boats, and 10 sank 1 ship each, just how significant is that in terms of the sub war in general?

As for the V boats, they were freaks. Their best use would've been for minelaying - their gear was tested within 200yds of a sensitive sonar suite off Pearl and could not be heard when in use - but the Admiralty screwed that up and insisted they were too noisy (amazing how they conduct their own tests then ignore them). So they went on patrols. They had constant electrical fires from condensate causing grounds/arcing in the electrics (no aircon). They were slow to dive, large, and carried less engine power than a Gato. Dick O'Kane makes a comparison in 'Wahoo' (he served on Argonaut), adding that you'd have to restrict them to applying no more than the equivalent of 15 degrees of a Gato's rudder to get an idea of the difference.

In short, they were whales used incorrectly.

I have no prob with the list being simulated, but would like Balao added.

To me, it's more important they get the many other vital issues right before including every class of sub.....

[nikimcbee]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.

Ditto:nope: My favorite sub stories are the S-38 in Lingayen Gulf, Dec 22, 1941 and the S-44 sinking the Kako.:arrgh!:

[Steeltrap]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.

Ditto:nope: My favorite sub stories are the S-38 in Lingayen Gulf, Dec 22, 1941 and the S-44 sinking the Kako.:arrgh!:

People should actually READ the interview material....it's hard enough for developers when people don't like what they've actually said without having people inventing stuff! :damn:

It says the WAR starts in Pearl Harbour (not exactly a big surprise) and that they are yet to decide the bases available from which to conduct operations. So I don't know why people think they have to start in Pearl and that the other bases won't be included.....:hmm:

At a guess, you'd think Pearl, Midway and Brisbane will be in at least (Wahoo did a patrol from Pearl to Brisbane then another from Brisbane to Midway in '42, for example). I suppose Manilla should really be there, but then it wasn't available for all that long....

[ricnunes]

Yes, I misread the part of the starting bases and I admited that in the other thread but aparently from reading the interview there will not be an S-Class in SH4 which is I must say a very large fault in SH4 (it's like not having a TypeII U-Boat in SH3).
But since we are still months away from the SH4 there is still time for the devs to include the S-class in SH4 and the best way for this to happen is to post threads like this in these forums in order to show the devs how important (and I dare to say VITAL) is to have the S-Class sub in SH4!

My 2 cents...

[Capt. D]

[quote=Steeltrap]I have to take a different view of things: if there were 22 S boats, and 10 sank 1 ship each, just how significant is that in terms of the sub war in general?

The S-44 operated out of the Solomons at the begining of the war and was the first sub to sink a major Japanese warship the IJNS Kako a heavy cruiser. Think of what that crew went through in a boat not meant for the type of action US subs would be up against!

I am not saying the S-Boats played a major significant role in the total picture, however they did play a role and some were succesfull in the early days of the war in sinking ships when any victory was one to celebrate. One only needs to review the final count of ships sunk per sub to see that many Gato and Balao subs did not sink one ship either! The Tambor class Tautog - though far superior than any sub prior to it's class did not have the diesels and batteries the later Gatos and Balaos had - yet she survived the war with the distinction of being the leading submarine in terms of enemy ships sunk. Each class had it's positive aspects so...

Give the S-Boat it's fair due! :yep:

Happy Hunting :ping:

[Steeltrap]

You make some good points, Capt. D.

I'm not AGAINST having the S boat - more a case of not too fussed if it's not in the final product. I'm more concerned over the fundamentals of the sim.

Cheers

[nikimcbee]

[quote=Steeltrap]I have to take a different view of things: if there were 22 S boats, and 10 sank 1 ship each, just how significant is that in terms of the sub war in general?

The S-44 operated out of the Solomons at the begining of the war and was the first sub to sink a major Japanese warship the IJNS Kako a heavy cruiser. Think of what that crew went through in a boat not meant for the type of action US subs would be up against!

I am not saying the S-Boats played a major significant role in the total picture, however they did play a role and some were succesfull in the early days of the war in sinking ships when any victory was one to celebrate. One only needs to review the final count of ships sunk per sub to see that many Gato and Balao subs did not sink one ship either! The Tambor class Tautog - though far superior than any sub prior to it's class did not have the diesels and batteries the later Gatos and Balaos had - yet she survived the war with the distinction of being the leading submarine in terms of enemy ships sunk. Each class had it's positive aspects so...

Give the S-Boat it's fair due! :yep:

Happy Hunting :ping:

Well put. The S-Boats are underdogs. They helped old the line during the early days of the war. I like playing as the underdog, it makes the victory even sweeter:up: . Now I can see not having the Barracuda, Argonaut or Bass in there.

[sergbuto]

Yes, I would also prefer to have S-class instead of Tambor or Salmon.

[Sailor Steve]

...what is a V-boat?

V-boats were 342ft long and 2,000tons (V1-V3) which were renamed Barracuda, Bass and Bonita. The next three were V4-V6 (at 371'-381' long and 2,700tons), renamed Argonaut, Narwhal, Nautilus, also Dolphin (V-7) (Dolpin was also around 1,100tons and M.A.N. powered), Cachalot (V-8) and Cuttlefish (V-9) (Cachalot and Cuttlefish were 1,100ton boats powered by M.A.N. diesels). At Pearl Harbor in the fall of 1941 were six V-boats; Argonaut, Nautilus, Narwhal, Dolphin, Cachalot and Cuttlefish. These boats also carried 2 x 5" deck guns. Slow, hard to manage. V-1, V-2, V-3 built in 1925-1926. V4, V-5 and V-6 were commissioned in the late 1920s.

Hope that helps, Salute Sir:)
It helps a lot, thanks. If I could get to my books I would have looked it up. I'm quite familiar with all of those boats, but I had never heard them referred to as 'V-boats' before. Now I have.

In fact I love the three 'biggies' and would love to see them in the game. In SHI they were hard to get but with Hawk's Silent Hunter Utilities you could assign yourself to one.

[Capt. D]

Yes, I would also prefer to have S-class instead of Tambor or Salmon.

Looks like the S-Boat has a good following! Along with it the T's (Tambor), Salmon and Permit class boats also played an important role. The BIG V's really do not need to be part of the sim. Other than the Nautlis and Narwhal - who were almost a class unto themselves and were used mostly for special ops e.g. commando raids - the S-Boat at the very begining of the war and then the Permit, Salmon, and Tambor class really held the line until the Gatos appeared. The Balaos were the "thick skined" boats and along with the Gatos probably had the most subs in serivce of all other classes at the end of the war.

As the Balao had very little as far as differances in appearance from the Gato (and depending on which ship yard built the sub there were differences there also - lumbar holes as an examble - there should not be that much to do to ensure both are in the sim as external views would be the same based on time and refits and internal views - if only a few will be available control room, conning tower, radio room????? - should not be that different at all.

SH - if I remember correctly - covered these classes mentioned and SH4 should also.

Happy Hunting :ping:

[ricnunes]

Wouldn't it be a good idea to insure that this thread (and the S-Class request to be included in SH4) reaches the SH4 devs? Is there some way to achive this?

What's your oppinion about this?

[cmdrk]

A neat shot of the S and V boats.
http://members.socket.net/%7Eklhulett/files/topview_s_v.jpg

[Safe-Keeper]

The devs read the boards, so no worries.

[Torgen]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.

Ditto:nope: My favorite sub stories are the S-38 in Lingayen Gulf, Dec 22, 1941 and the S-44 sinking the Kako.:arrgh!:

In my PTO sub games, I always start in Manila and try to get to the Philippine landing beaches before the Japs can! I did it once in Silent Service, and got trapped in the bay! :o They were kinda pissed that I hit two transports.

That's probably my biggest wish- a dynamic campaign where, if we get in the right place at the right time, we score the jackpot! Like, maybe I get my S boat to Lingayen Gulf before the invasion fleet, or catch Shokaku on her return from striking Java. I loved leafing through my two volume set of "Silent Victory" to figure out where the nearest "big catch" was in my area on my patrol date. :up:

[Chef]

DD: Silent Hunter IV aims to give an accurate representation of the US submarine campaign against Japan. Taking both this, and our own development schedule, into consideration, we chose the most representative US fleet boat classes: P-class, Tambor, Salmon, and Gato. Of course, each of them will come with several development variations."
Might the underlined mean Gato, Balao and Tench?

[ricnunes]

The "underline" part makes me somehow less worried regarding the Balao or even the Tench.
But what worries me the most is the absence of the S-Class sub, I really hope the devs change their minds and put the S-Class in SH4. The S-Class is as important to the Pacific as it was the German TypeII in the Atlantic and the TypeII was included in SHIII so there's absolutely no reason why the S-Class shoudn't be included in SH4.

Sorry, if I'm insisting too much regarding the S-Class but I do this because I think that the presence of the S-Class in SH4 is VITAL!

[MadMike]

Well, in the meantime I've created a few "training missions" out of Corregidor using a Type VIIB. Limiting your depth to 82m (268 ft) against the DD's is nerve wracking.
The deepest I've read an S-boat going in combat was 267 feet (S-37)-

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/submar/ss142.txt

Yeah, would be nice to see an S-boat in SHIV!

Yours, Mike

[_Seth_]

What would SHIII look like if they excluded the VIIC...? :rock:

I just LOVE it when its historically correct!

[ricnunes]

Well, in the meantime I've created a few "training missions" out of Corregidor using a Type VIIB. Limiting your depth to 82m (268 ft) against the DD's is nerve wracking.
The deepest I've read an S-boat going in combat was 267 feet (S-37)-

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/submar/ss142.txt

Yeah, would be nice to see an S-boat in SHIV!

Yours, Mike

Yeap, the S-Class had a limited service depth but nevertheless it had an impressive submerged speed (for that time) of 11 Knots! :)

[MadMike]

If the DevTeam ever get's the notion to model the S-boat, here's some interior pictures-

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4contrl.jpg


http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4crew.jpg

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4torp3.jpg

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4torp2.jpg

From-

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/graphics.htm

More interior shots can be found here, near bottom of page-

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/s-boats4.html


Yours, Mike

[Sailor Steve]

Good stuff, Mister MadMike! Thanks for posting those.:rock:

[_Seth_]

If the DevTeam ever get's the notion to model the S-boat, here's some interior pictures-

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4contrl.jpg


http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4crew.jpg

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4torp3.jpg

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/s4torp2.jpg

From-

http://thesaltysailor.com/s-boats/graphics.htm

More interior shots can be found here, near bottom of page-

http://www.rddesigns.com/subs/s-boats4.html


Yours, Mike


Looking at these pics.......somehow...makes me feel....like im............home...?

THEY MUST INCLUDE THE S-CLASS!

[Chef]

Great S-boat pics

[ricnunes]

Excelent pictures inded, thanks for posting them Madmike!

[DaMaGe007]

Ill add my disapointment at there being no S Class, and underdog career can be a fun distraction and its good to start at the bottom(not submerged:lol: ).

[U-Dog]

Yes, I must admit that reading that no S-class subs were to be included in SH4 and that you always start from Pearl Harbour was very disapointing to me! I really loved starting from the Phillippines with an S-class sub when playing the SH1 campaign.
I feel the same way!