TMO and dd evasion--my technique fails.

[I'm goin' down]

Recently, I have been setting up at a range of 3,500 - 4,500 yds using the the constant bearing technique described in rock n' shoals post in the Subskippers Bag of Tricks thread. I am striking against TFs, the main line of which is at that range, straddled on both sides by Ducimus' famous dds and escorts, which parallel the main line on each side by approximately 1,000 - 3,000 yds. Out of six shots at two or three targets on the main line, usually cruisers, battleships or carriers, I hit one vessel, and come quite close to hitting the other target(s). I will settle for that, as the targets are all high risk, and are heavy tonnage. Regardless, the protective dd cordon ends with a radar track on my boat, even if it has dived before the unleashed torpedoes impact the chosen target(s). DDs have found my boat at a depth of 600 ft., and sunk it. Firing beyond a range of 4,500 yds with accuracy is difficult, as a slight miscalcualtion of speed, Aob or firing point makes a difference at long range. I know there are some who say the TMO dds are not a big deal and can be avoided. I don't believe them. If I angle my boat towards the oncoming task force to yield a smaller radar profile to the oncoming dds and escorts, the firing angle to the target yields a smaller aspect ratio, thus making accurate long range shots (i.e. ones that his the target) quite difficult, so that does not appear a feasible solution, even if it helps avoid the dd cordon. I may avoid being sunk, but the trade off is that I probably won't hit anything.

Any reasonable suggestions to this dilemma.

By the way the October 15, 1944 career start missions will lead to large TFs on their way to Luzon. The problem is that Ducimus' dds will be on guard, their crews are on caffeine overdose, and they usually screw up the party.

[Armistead]

If you're playing RSRD, it sets the factors for the crews, poor-elite, not TMO. However, I don't think it effects the sensors of TMO, so still fairly tough.

Have you installed the IJN radar fix by tater, doe's help some as far as them picking you up on radar much further.

In rough water I'll come at the TF straight on between the lead escort and the flank escort, with the goal of turning it to a 45 degree attack. Usually this means I have to shoot at the further line of targets as one line is almost on top of me. Course a few times I've been ran over with my scope up by large ships, so try to be careful.

I seldom have a problem getting my attack off at close range. Usually I'll get pinged or found out soon after. My goal is to get my shots off before I'm found out. I don't dive deep until my attack is done. If I get pinged, I'm gonna stay flank and get my attack off if possible. The only issue I have is being stuck with some bad gyro's, but I've gotten fairly good with them. You can forget most target shooting methods, you stad it, guess where it's going and setup for where you want torp placement and then I'll unlock and shoot by the wire.

Ive never had any luck with all the various shooting methods attacking TF. It sets you to a holding pattern that often places you in front of a DD.

The good thing about RSRD is the TF are more spread out and often a wider escort screen. Often in calm waters I'll let them pick me up on radar so several escorts come a running. When they get about 8000 yards I'll dive and go flank and deep heading to my attack point. Don't let them catch you on radar where you want to shoot from. Usually a group of DD's are in my stern searchin where I dived leaving a flank exposed for me to attack from. Simply I'll be in front of the target about 10nms about 5000 yards off my attack point. I sit there until the escorts come and dive flank deep until I get to my attack point. The goal is to put 3000 yards between my arse and the searching escorts where I dived, then I can usually come up without them finding me.

With cams and contacts off just make sure you mark where you dived and where you want to be when you shoot. The mark where you dived should be where the escorts will be searcing for you. If you can get to your shooting point without being pinged, success. If you're being pinged, hard to know if it's safe to come up when you're stuck in the sub. If they have me on longscale, I'll chance it, shortscale, head for deep water.

Still, best plans can be foiled. Sometimes it's best to wait. The good thing about RSRD is most TF return along the path they came. My biggest mistake is getting greedy, often it works, sometimes not. I've blown some good setups trying to hit say 4 capital ships, when I should've settled for two. My goal is to sink one and atleast damage another so the TF will slow down, making the next end around easier. I'm sure I miss as much as anyone.


I've always found speed and depth to be the factor in living. If you're gonna run at silent at 1kt, your gonna die with TMO.

[I'm goin' down]

I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

[Bubblehead1980]

Keeping about 20 degrees rudder on with 1-2 knots, making a constant slow turn throws the escorts off, they dont know your path and lose contact.When they are roaring overhead, put your rudder amidships and go ahead flank for thirty seconds, the DD's noises cover yours, then all stop and put on 20 degrees rudder in the OPPOSITE direction it was before you went ahead flank.Do this for a few runs, it usually confuses the DD's and they will lose you.Takes some nerve esp with cams and contacts off but it works.

[Armistead]

I assume you are attacking while moving towards the TF? Is PK on? If not, are you using Cromwell, Rock n Shoals constant bearing method, or some other technique?

Usually I want to dive about 3000-5000 yards to the flank of the coming TF if I plan to pull the escorts away. Much harder to do with cams off, so I'll try to get a good track and mark my attack position. More often than not unless water is way rough, I'll pull the escorts out by letting them get me with radar or even chance a visual if needed. Sometime I even have to ping the group a few times, but that works even better giving me range. That's why you need to mark where you dive, because that's where the escorts will be searching, plus a mark where you hope to attack from. You want to pull the escorts away as far from the group as you can, if they come a running from 10nms, that's great, dive and haul arse to your attack point. If you wait too long the TF may go by.

The main thing is when you dive to haul arse and escape the circle the escorts will be searching. Usually I'll atleast go past the thermal layer. If sonar tells me they're still at my dive mark I know I can come up to scope depth, but you have to time it where you can reach your attack point, but the TF will go into zigs and slow down giving you more time. If you're being pinged, you didn't get far enough away from the hunters...then it's a chance.

If not doing this I try to set myself 1000 yards to the flank of the lead escort and come straight at that mark, helming my bow slowly towards him. I will try to get speed and course with stad and lock on so I'll have some clue before I get too close. Usually you know when you're close. Main thing is to listen with sonar for that lead escort to pass, that's time to come up and shoot. Hopefully the lead escort will be gone anyway searching your dive spot. Again, any fixed attack method that holds you to a course is dangerous. Nothing against all the OKane type attacks, they have a place, but if your goal becomes to stay on a fixed course, you're gonna get pinged by the flank escort.

Obvious when you come up ships will be zigging different speeds, so it's picking targets and two good stad points then easy aob for course and speed, then unlock and shoot by the wire. I'll shoot all torps and dive and head flank so I can again leave where the escorts will come hunting.

Obvious if I'm using cams I can just steer with the cam and watch everything, which is rather easy, but I play both ways depending on time, but still use same tactics.

Here is my attack with the Yamato where I had to do 3 end arounds, you can sort of get the idea. At least twice when I attacked the Yamato a few escorts were way off searching where I dived off the flank. You can basically see how I stad and shoot by the wire, which I think you understand being a fan of ez aob, in fact I think you turned me on to it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175983

[I'm goin' down]

Usually I want to dive about 3000-5000 yards to the flank of the coming TF if I plan to pull the escorts away. Much harder to do with cams off, so I'll try to get a good track and mark my attack position. More often than not unless water is way rough, I'll pull the escorts out by letting them get me with radar or even chance a visual if needed. Sometime I even have to ping the group a few times, but that works even better giving me range. That's why you need to mark where you dive, because that's where the escorts will be searching, plus a mark where you hope to attack from. You want to pull the escorts away as far from the group as you can, if they come a running from 10nms, that's great, dive and haul arse to your attack point. If you wait too long the TF may go by.

The main thing is when you dive to haul arse and escape the circle the escorts will be searching. Usually I'll atleast go past the thermal layer. If sonar tells me they're still at my dive mark I know I can come up to scope depth, but you have to time it where you can reach your attack point, but the TF will go into zigs and slow down giving you more time. If you're being pinged, you didn't get far enough away from the hunters...then it's a chance.

If not doing this I try to set myself 1000 yards to the flank of the lead escort and come straight at that mark, helming my bow slowly towards him. I will try to get speed and course with stad and lock on so I'll have some clue before I get too close. Usually you know when you're close. Main thing is to listen with sonar for that lead escort to pass, that's time to come up and shoot. Hopefully the lead escort will be gone anyway searching your dive spot. Again, any fixed attack method that holds you to a course is dangerous. Nothing against all the OKane type attacks, they have a place, but if your goal becomes to stay on a fixed course, you're gonna get pinged by the flank escort.

Obvious when you come up ships will be zigging different speeds, so it's picking targets and two good stad points then easy aob for course and speed, then unlock and shoot by the wire. I'll shoot all torps and dive and head flank so I can again leave where the escorts will come hunting.

Obvious if I'm using cams I can just steer with the cam and watch everything, which is rather easy, but I play both ways depending on time, but still use same tactics.

Here is my attack with the Yamato where I had to do 3 end arounds, you can sort of get the idea. At least twice when I attacked the Yamato a few escorts were way off searching where I dived off the flank. You can basically see how I stad and shoot by the wire, which I think you understand being a fan of ez aob, in fact I think you turned me on to it.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175983

Okay. I have shook off the dds and escrorts by submerging and surfacing between where they spotted me and the TF track. But the TF is moving fast. If I set up for constant bearing or O'Kane, you indicate I will be discovered. I assume you are turning on the PK and using manual targeting while closing on the TF after you have resurfaced at your predesignated position. This mean you have to have the track of the TF, identified the target's, entered speed and course, and determined range. (ie. I assume you are using the Easy Aob mod). How do you find time to do that when the TF can be doing over 20 kts? In one Lyete Gulf battle I calculated the TF speed at 33 kts. Note I set up at approximately 4,500 yds off the TF track and well ahead of it. I dive and resurface uon being spotted at around 2,000 yds. According to your post I should continue to close as I fire torpedoes. Between the time I dive and resurface the TF is really close, and their is insufficient time to use the 3 minute rule for speed and course calculations. How should I attack?

[Armistead]

For one I will have the base speed long before I attack, when cams offs using radar mod or just a guess based on if I can parallel it's course and match speed, pass it, ect. Most TF run at 17-19kts. Usually I let them find me on radar and will run from the group so they will go into zig mode, that slows them down and I will run away until the escorts turn back and track my end around.

When I want to attack I will have course by making marks and using the tools to figure his base track, again using radar mod or if contacts on rather simple, no need to explain.

The only TF I've seen hit 30kts of more are the fast dd groups in the slot, but I attack them all the time as they come in one line.

Usually when I pull the DD's away and dive I hope to be 3-5000 yards off my attack track and not come back to surface. I did surface once in my Y attack because I was able, but that's rare.. If you can pull the escorts away at about 5nm's I've never had a problem diving going flank and putting them 3000 yards behind me hunting out of sonar range. If a TF is going faster say 24kts...you still should be able to travel 1500 yards at flank before they can reach 5nms, giving you a 1500 yard shot.

Sort of think of it as a triangle. The TF the tip coming down the left line, the escorts coming faster down the right line and you the bottom line right moving left wanting to be where the left line connects your base before the TF gets there and the escorts should be searching at the base right line when you attack.

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire. The group should be zigging, you may even get into the middle of it before you need to shoot and can use all tubes on several targets. Often you'll have to guess AOB based on his zig pattern, not what it is at the moment.

[I'm goin' down]

17 miles due north of Samar from the center of the Island, the Jap Fleet was travelling at 32-33 kts. heading in a south easterly direction. On their return trip, it was travelling at 22-23 kts. I fired a blind salvo at around 8,000yds and had three hits on a BB (a true once in a lifetime strike.) The torepdoes were set for less than 10 ft running depth and did not slow the target down. The TF was travelling two rows and was LARGE, completely ringed by escorts.

[Armistead]

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

[Marko]

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

Writing down this invaluable infos from ComSubPac for future use in RSRD

[I'm goin' down]

I've never seen that group going that fast... I assume you're talking about Kurita's fleet coming through the San Bern, which is a good place to ambush it. If you're playing RSRD the fastest easternly leg is 22kts coming through the the Sibuyan Sea through the San Bern. Once it exits it shows it going 27kts heading SSE towards the US jeep carriers, on the return leg, back to 22kts. Obvious if it spots you, it should zig slowing down to probably 17kts. This group had both Y classes, is that what you hit? Also has a few Kongo's and one Fuso. The ratings on all the ships in this group, including the DDs is only competent....making it easy to fool the escorts.

This group leaves Singy on the 18th, gets to Brunei despawns, spawns back the 22 and heads for the San Bern on the 25th.

I do not know whose fleet it was or where it was heading to or coming from. It was totally encircled by dds/escorts, and I recall there were two log columns of captal ships. I did not take an inventory when I flew over with my camera, but there were lots of BBs. I only got one speed reading in each direction, so I cannot say I am certain on the speed of the TF. However, I tried to get a head of them when I first spotted them, and they exceeded the speed of Balao which was at 22-24 kts. I finally gave up on that plan, and went for what turned out to be a lucky shot at long range.

[Armistead]

No doubt it's the Center Force of Kurita that comes through the Sibuyen Sea through the San Bern, two long rows of capital ships encircled by many DD's. The Yamato's bring up the rear. As this group exits the San Bern it heads sort of SSE where it comes in slight contact with the US jeep carrier force. Soundd like you found them coming around Samar going fast. Lurker has them turning back on each other so they don't do a massive battle or the Yamato's would eat them alive, but I've seen a few DD's do battle. A good place to catch the group is in the San Bern, so narrow the group will have to come over you.
If you miss it, just remember it comes back the 26th. As you stated it's faster than your sub so if it gets ahead, you're not gonna catch it either way.

The other force is the Southern Force that comes through the Surigao Strait same night, but just two Kongo's and several CA's and DD's, but you'll see several US TF that easily deal with it. Nice surface battle and you can easily finish off many damaged ships.

Course also the northern carrier group, battle of Cape Equano as discussed in another thread.

Here is an old SS of the two lines. If you catch it in the Sibuyan Sea..think that's how it's spelled the 24th you can watch it get attacked in mass by planes, another good time to attack it and you have more room.
http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2010-04-25_022027_437.jpg

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2010-04-25_023353_484.jpg

[I'm goin' down]

That looks like the TF! It is a LARGE TF and well guarded. Nice work finding it. You must have dissected Lurker's TF history!

Couple of issues on the subject of attacking a TF at 100 percent realism with map contacts enabled (the activation box is unchecked.)

I stll cannot seem to escape the dds and escorts. I have tried pointing my bow at the lead dd and diving under it, moving further ahead of the TF after after the dds spot my boat, etc. Nothing has worked. They find me. Maybe someone can put up a tutorial with screen shots? Also, I have not been able to get speed per the 3 minute rule because the TF silouettes do not appear until after the dds have pounced. I just do not have time. I have tried to get speed per the speed dial key on the Attack Tool speed dial if and when I am able resurface close to the TF main line. A screen shot tutorial would be a great help. I assume it would involve TMO 2.0 activated, map contacts enabled, PK activated, Easy Aob Mod activated, but who knows what, if anything will be posted? I could use a visual of the tactics to get into firing position. I do not think there is a good tutorial on attacking TFs. This is advanced sim warfare especially when the dds and escorts have the AI programmed by Ducimus. I can try the long range shot, but closing for a kill as Armistead has described appears beyong me without a good tutorial to show the way. Robbins could use it in his bag of tricks tutorial.

[Armistead]

Well, you know they're so many factors and I'm sure you're doing most. Sometimes you just have to attack even when being pinged. If you're at 150ft and going flank you can almost always outrun charges. Many times I'll let the DD makes its run and come up to scope depth and take two quick stad measurements for speed and guess where my torps need to be and fire all 6 at one target. For one if the lead DD passes over you and the pinging stops you know you have time. Sometimes another DD will be ready to make another run, but if he only has me on longscale I'll try to at least get a look with the scope and shoot. Sometimes you have to let fly by sonar. Usually as long as I can make 8 kts the charges fall behind me unless caught at scope depth. If you have cams on you can easily see if you can come up, not it's a guess. Just try to have a full charge when you attack.

I'm probably being pinged during 50% of my attacks, but usally find a way to hit something. My guess is you're better than you think and you're wanting maybe more than you're gonna get.

Haven't played in a few weeks, but I'll try to put together a video of an attack soon to give you an idea, but many here are great at pulling off attacks so maybe they can add some new idea's.

[I'm goin' down]

my problem is that my boat gets damaged. I can live with pings. I look forward to see what captains can come up with.

[Bubblehead1980]

Well, you know they're so many factors and I'm sure you're doing most. Sometimes you just have to attack even when being pinged. If you're at 150ft and going flank you can almost always outrun charges. Many times I'll let the DD makes its run and come up to scope depth and take two quick stad measurements for speed and guess where my torps need to be and fire all 6 at one target. For one if the lead DD passes over you and the pinging stops you know you have time. Sometimes another DD will be ready to make another run, but if he only has me on longscale I'll try to at least get a look with the scope and shoot. Sometimes you have to let fly by sonar. Usually as long as I can make 8 kts the charges fall behind me unless caught at scope depth. If you have cams on you can easily see if you can come up, not it's a guess. Just try to have a full charge when you attack.

I'm probably being pinged during 50% of my attacks, but usally find a way to hit something. My guess is you're better than you think and you're wanting maybe more than you're gonna get.

Haven't played in a few weeks, but I'll try to put together a video of an attack soon to give you an idea, but many here are great at pulling off attacks so maybe they can add some new idea's.


Being pinged during 50% of your attacks? That high? You like to work under pressure lol.

[Armistead]

Being pinged during 50% of your attacks? That high? You like to work under pressure lol.

Well, it's usually after I shoot, but as long as I can get my shots off and evade, works for me. I like to be right on them shooting at 1000 yards or less. That's why I like to pull the escorts away, I can usually get my attacks off and escape without the escorts having a clue.

[Thrair]

I don't generally like to try pulling the escorts away, but that's partially because I'm cautious, and partially because I've got some leftover habits from before I downloaded the Maxoptics mod.

[Armistead]

Pulling the escorts away has gotten to be my favorite method. I will even ping a TF 20nm's away and can often pull escorts 10-15 nms's from the group. Anytime you can have escorts 3000 yards plus in your stern searching for you where you were, leaving a wide open flank to attack from it's like taking candy from a baby. It just takes timing and really not that hard.

My favorite convoys to attack are late war Formosa, shallow water and usually many Type AB's. You better learn to pull them and keep them far in your stern so you can attack, nothing worse than having an elite group of 3-8 Type AB's catching you in shallow water of 150ft...With cams off I've been in my sub and felt like a rubber ball being bounced around the ocean making that mistake, depth charges going off like machine gun fire.

[I'm goin' down]

Pulling the escorts away has gotten to be my favorite method. I will even ping a TF 20nm's away and can often pull escorts 10-15 nms's from the group. Anytime you can have escorts 3000 yards plus in your stern searching for you where you were, leaving a wide open flank to attack from it's like taking candy from a baby. It just takes timing and really not that hard.

My favorite convoys to attack are late war Formosa, shallow water and usually many Type AB's. You better learn to pull them and keep them far in your stern so you can attack, nothing worse than having an elite group of 3-8 Type AB's catching you in shallow water of 150ft...With cams off I've been in my sub and felt like a rubber ball being bounced around the ocean making that mistake, depth charges going off like machine gun fire.

I cannot do what you describe.:wah:

[CaptainJack]

When I attack, I'm setting up a normal two stad measurments for course and speed, leave PK locked, unlock scope, reset bearing at the bow and shoot by the wire.

Thanks for this tip Armistead - I've been reading your posts in this thread with interest since I've been kind of locked into the O'Kane firing method and have been looking for a good method to "fire on the fly." I want to make sure I understand your method correctly though since I'm still getting some misses and usually missing ahead of the target. So if I understand correctly, you are taking two stadimeter readings for target bearing and range (with some elapsed time between readings), then setting angle on the bow according to target course (easy AOB), then setting target speed? Then is it one more stadimeter reading prior to PK on? Or do you set AOB and speed prior to second stadimeter reading then PK lock? Once PK is activated, am I understanding correctly that you are unlocking scope, setting wire on target bow, clicking on send to TDC for wire bearing then shooting by wire... say mast, MOT, mast? Does that sound right?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like once PK is set, the TDC is going to be constantly updating lead angle for the target - which is why I am a little confused by the unlock scope-leave PK on-set wire on target bow and set bearing-shoot by wire. It seems like setting the bearing again with wire on target bow could cause fish to have an even greater lead angle and run ahead. Let me know if I'm thoroughly confused :06: Thanks!

[I'm goin' down]

How do you get a stadimeter reading for target bearing? (I do not think you can.)

1. The target's bearing is the number degrees displayed on the periscope when you have it locked on the target. You get speed by clicking the speed button on the Speed Dial, but, as I recall, you have to be locked on the target for this method to work. Of course, you can measure speed by other methods such as the three minute rule.

2. You get range from the range dial.

3. You set the Aob per the Easy Aob mod by setting it to match the target's true course per the compass tool. If you use Easy Aob, once speed and course are established and entered on the Attack Dials, you can turn on the PK. The TDC should begin following the target. You can input range after the PK is activated, as the TDC is tracking the target's course and speed. (Note, using Easy Aob: If more than one target is on the same course, after firing at the first target, all that is required is a range adjustment to track the second target.)

As for firing by the wire, I have no idea what Armistead is talking about. Take a look in the Bag of Tricks thread re Rock n Shoals constant bearing method in lieu of the O'Kane method. You can use it at long distance without activating the PK. Now for Armistead to impart his brillance... How he avoids dds is beyond me, if TMO is applied using its original AI.

[Dignan]

It's my understanding that you don't ever turn on the PK when using the O'Kane method. AT least I never do when doing a 90 degree O'Kane style attack but I'll let the experts chime in to confirm. That may be where you are getting your misses from.

[I'm goin' down]

It's my understanding that you don't ever turn on the PK when using the O'Kane method. AT least I never do when doing a 90 degree O'Kane style attack but I'll let the experts chime in to confirm. That may be where you are getting your misses from.


This thread is not about O'Kane, which does not require the PK to be activated--just like the constant bearing method. My issue is how to avoid the dds in TMO 2.0, which, if explained by others, needs further amplification.

[Dignan]

This thread is not about O'Kane, which does not require the PK to be activated--just like the constant bearing method. My issue is how to avoid the dds in TMO 2.0, which, if explained by others, needs further amplification.

Sorry, wasn't trying to hijack the thread. Just responding to CaptainJack's question.

Carry on with the DD evasion discussion....a topic I am also interested in learning more about.

[ZigmundFreund]

Ok, I think we need some more info from our friend Down 'cause this thread is going sideways. It is also a subject I love to debate.

Personaly I managed to learn how to avoid Ducimus' escorts just by reading page 40 to 45 of TMO_20.pdf manual (and a lot of reading in this forum). If you want more explanation about the last paragraph "So what the hell do i do if i have multiple escorts camping out up top?" then Bubblehead1980 is being very useful here.




I found those threads very useful as well. You'll find various opinions, as various as there is attack situations:
Ducimus' "The "uber" AI demystified" (http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm)
Help avoiding detection (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=120428)
Clear something up about thermal layer (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=157527)
Recently, I have been setting up at a range of 3,500 - 4,500 yds using the the constant bearing technique (...) escorts, which parallel the main line on each side by approximately 1,000 - 3,000 yds.

About attack technique, I prefer Cromwell's 45 degree AoB approach against speedy task forces because it's ideal to slip between front/flank escorts and it adds-up torps' speed with their speed making the fishes very difficult to avoid.

Anyway, if you can hit a target moving at more than 20 knots from a distance 4,500 yds, you definitely don't need advice on the attack technique. I'm totally unable to do that range with constant bearing.

I agree with Armistead when he said that fixed attack method is dangerous. It is dangerous especially when you are stubborn to stick to only one attack method. Most probably sticking to constant bearing technique IS the reason why you fail and reload your game endlessly.

Are you ending up too close (closer than 2500 yds) to a DD if the main line is at 4500 yds and the flank escort is around 2500 yds in between?
Are you making too much noise trying to catch up or keep your constant bearing? Don't let the escorts get closer than 2500 yds and stop even making noise by breathing when they are that close. Even the repair crew have to be disabled.

Regardless, the protective dd cordon ends with a radar track on my boat, even if it has dived before the unleashed torpedoes impact the chosen target(s). (...)By the way the October 15, 1944 career start missions will lead to large TFs on their way to Luzon.

You said it, you're attacking a TF full of radar equiped capital ship with experienced escorts. Forget about any surface approach. Find their general heading using radar from a safe distance (means more than 8 nm.) and fly in their path at a safe distance (means out of radar range). Dive and pretend you don't exist until they get in range.

If you are not in a good position to attack then Armistead technique to lure the DDs away is a good approach, although I never manage to do this one succesfully against a task force. Making them believe you are somewhere else is a potential approach but you need enough distance to disappear and not too much distance to catch up with the target... More maths on the map.

Let me quote our guru RR on this one: "Once you're detected, the hunt for merchies is over and you're engaged in evasion of escorts. In the meantime, the merchies will get away. So rule #1: don't be detected." Even more true with a task force, you have one pass and you are lucky if you can make a second pass to finish the damaged ships.

Sometimes you have to accept your position is too crappy and let go the attack. Try to figure out where they are going or if they are coming back, ambush them in a strait or next to their destination port or just curse the engineers that gave you so lousy diesels. If you don't want to let it go then find what gets you detected or cowboy your way around the DDs to spray and pray.

DDs have found my boat at a depth of 600 ft., and sunk it. (...) If I angle my boat towards the oncoming task force to yield a smaller radar profile to the oncoming dds and escorts

If they sank your boat while you were 600 ft. deep it means you were either stopped or going straight with a constant speed? You have to play with them more than that. Once again Bubblehead1980 advices are spot on if you ask me. I would like to add; When a DD ping he's not listening. When he's not pinging he's certainly listening. When he's pinging do not touch time compression!!!

If you want to know more about the AI, search by user for Ducimus in this forum. I believe you know he's the AI scientist here and I got most of my info by searching his posts.

You can avoid any depth charge attack by being deep, evasive and at flank speed. There is no reason run silent if you hear depth charges getting wet. Remember also that the depth is set before launch so changing depth can save your ass as well. I spent a lot of time in the slot during 1942 pissing off the 6 to 12 DD convoys by shelling them and then practice evasion. 'Died a lot of times but it was worth it.

Okay. I have shook off the dds and escrorts by submerging and surfacing between where they spotted me and the TF track. But the TF is moving fast. If I set up for constant bearing or O'Kane, you indicate I will be discovered. I assume you are turning on the PK and using manual targeting while closing on the TF after you have resurfaced at your predesignated position. This mean you have to have the track of the TF, identified the target's, entered speed and course, and determined range. (ie. I assume you are using the Easy Aob mod). How do you find time to do that when the TF can be doing over 20 kts? In one Lyete Gulf battle I calculated the TF speed at 33 kts. Note I set up at approximately 4,500 yds off the TF track and well ahead of it. I dive and resurface uon being spotted at around 2,000 yds. According to your post I should continue to close as I fire torpedoes. Between the time I dive and resurface the TF is really close, and their is insufficient time to use the 3 minute rule for speed and course calculations. How should I attack?

33 knots is odd since the TF never go faster than the slowest boat in it. Also, You are a legend aready if you can hit an evasive warship doing 33 knots from 4500 yds! You don't need any advice but since you are asking for it; I am sure any attack method won't get you discovered more than another. Only the metal of your cigar, the wake of your scope or the noise of your knees shaking.

My first guess trying to figure out your situation is: They know you're here already, get as close/fast as you can to take your shot.

The attack method really depends on your position and how much borrowed time you have. I don't have any mod installed making the solution faster than what's in the game and TMO already BUT, I've been practicing all attack methods so I can switch quickly depending on the situation. I also prioritize on gathering plot info a.s.a.p.

They are most probably zigzagging already so forget about constant bearing or PK. More possibility of error means you need a more error tolerant method. I would go for Cromwell or O'kane but once again I don't know your position. One thing that doesn't change: Closer is better

The speed and angle on bow will have to be an average on their true bearing. The best is to have their true bearing marked before they start zigging. Otherwise you have to make an assesment of their zigs:
You can make an assesment by using periscope up/map while taking their speed. You simply mark for the speed 3 minutes on the true bearing line ignoring the zigs. AoB is also taken from the relative true bearing. While the chrono is ticking you have enough time to figure out how wide is a zig and how much time they take to complete one. Once your solution is set the attack map will tell you how much time it will take for your torpedo to get there. Try to time your shot so the torpedo will hit when the target AoB is the closest to 90 degrees. It's obvious that spreading the shots are also maximizing your chance in this case.
:zzz: huh, what? I'm still typing? ok enough aready:timeout:.




-----------TF attacks:
Get in position from very very far and wait so you don't get detected
Be more silent than death or make them believe you are somewhere else
Get as close as you can from your target but never in front of or closer than 2500 yds of an escort.
The best plot is an early plot. No mod will change that. Anticipation is the key.
Shoot everything you have because you won't get a second chance.
Being in a good position to attack a speeding task force is a strike of luck and a luxury. You have to know when to let go. Moreover you will have to let go most of the time or reload your game and get in a good position before they come in radar range.
Did I wrote not to get detected?
Found a post from Armistead about more IJN radar and sonar mods if you want to try it before you hit Esc. > Exit to Windows:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=177317

Hope this was somehow helpful. :salute:

[Armistead]

Thanks for this tip Armistead - I've been reading your posts in this thread with interest since I've been kind of locked into the O'Kane firing method and have been looking for a good method to "fire on the fly." I want to make sure I understand your method correctly though since I'm still getting some misses and usually missing ahead of the target. So if I understand correctly, you are taking two stadimeter readings for target bearing and range (with some elapsed time between readings), then setting angle on the bow according to target course (easy AOB), then setting target speed? Then is it one more stadimeter reading prior to PK on? Or do you set AOB and speed prior to second stadimeter reading then PK lock? Once PK is activated, am I understanding correctly that you are unlocking scope, setting wire on target bow, clicking on send to TDC for wire bearing then shooting by wire... say mast, MOT, mast? Does that sound right?

Sorry for all the questions - I just want to make sure I'm doing it right. It seems like once PK is set, the TDC is going to be constantly updating lead angle for the target - which is why I am a little confused by the unlock scope-leave PK on-set wire on target bow and set bearing-shoot by wire. It seems like setting the bearing again with wire on target bow could cause fish to have an even greater lead angle and run ahead. Let me know if I'm thoroughly confused :06: Thanks!

You're correct in all your assuptions. I do leave the PK on just until I fire and unlock both PK and scope. If I didn't make that clear, my bad. Once I unlock the scope, I'll set a new bearing in front of the ship and wait for it to come to it and shoot by the wire. Sometimes for speed I'll set new bearings for each shot where I want to shoot instead of waiting for the ship to cross the wire, usually in the middle of a TF with escorts coming almost always shooting at large ships, sometimes seconds count.

My first one is almost always at the bow or in front of it to hold a ship in place from speeding up so the others will hit. Usually I'll hit with all. Sometimes I'll even then change speed a few knots slower to make a spread. If a group is zigging and I can figure AOB of both legs, I split the difference. Still, most the time I guess where my torps need to be and set it up that way.

MOT...Middle of the Target.

[Alky]

I found those threads very useful as well. You'll find various opinions, as various as there is attack situations:

Ducimus' "The "uber" AI demystified" (http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm)

I have a problem understanding the post above. Ducimus describes the sonar cone in early war as reaching out 1200 meters to a depth of 200 meters (??)

Then in late war, a distance of roughly 2000 meters and a depth of 300 meters (??)

This info must be pretty much redundant as very few subs to my understanding can submerge 200 meters (600+ ft.), or 300 meters (900+ ft) in late war.
Is this a typo and the depth is really measured in feet and not meters?!?:hmmm:

[I'm goin' down]

The last three posts stepped things up a notch. zigmund--nice work. I have been too lazy to use Cromwell. I will fix that.

[The 33 kt. task force was a huge task force of BBs, etc. coming out of San Bernadino straights, heading south in he Battle of Leyete Gulf. Maybe it was 32.5 kts? There were two rows of capital ships, so many that I did not have time to count. It flew bye. I took at random shot at 8,000+ yds., and an hour later the shot hit a BB. The torpedoe was set at minimum running depth. It did not slow the target, which stayed in formation. I count it as my one lucky shot, and right up there with the time my boat was spotted sneaking into the SE entrance of Truk where I was able to manuever and moor it submerged in a Jap boat slip to escape dds/sub chasers that were dropping depth charges all around.]

[ZigmundFreund]

I have a problem understanding the post above. Ducimus describes the sonar cone in early war as reaching out 1200 meters to a depth of 200 meters (??)

Then in late war, a distance of roughly 2000 meters and a depth of 300 meters (??)

This info must be pretty much redundant as very few subs to my understanding can submerge 200 meters (600+ ft.), or 300 meters (900+ ft) in late war.
Is this a typo and the depth is really measured in feet and not meters?!?:hmmm:

Those are SH3 measurements. Then, you have to consider thermal layer, weather etc.. and learn the skills of your opponents.

To my experience(with TMO2 + RSRDC), escorts in early war can be avoided by calm sea just below thermal layer while in late war any depth is not safe if you're making noise.

Of course, with a storm on your side you can stay at periscope depth almost any time of the war. With a safe distance between you and them they are as deaf as Mick Jagger.

[I'm goin' down]

I note that you have a recent join date (9/10.) You comments re evasion and convoy/TF attack tactics were well thought out and thoroughly researched. :|\\ I appears you have a knack for the Sim and do your homework:up:.

[Ducimus]

I have a problem understanding the post above. Ducimus describes the sonar cone in early war as reaching out 1200 meters to a depth of 200 meters (??)

Then in late war, a distance of roughly 2000 meters and a depth of 300 meters (??)

This info must be pretty much redundant as very few subs to my understanding can submerge 200 meters (600+ ft.), or 300 meters (900+ ft) in late war.
Is this a typo and the depth is really measured in feet and not meters?!?:hmmm:


As noted at the top of the page in that link, it was written for SH3, but the same princples apply to SH4. No the numbers aren't to scale, were talking principle here.

[Armistead]

Just remember a Cromwell still fixes you to a set course and with TMO even at that angle you're usually exposed to a flank that will ping you.

That's why I like to pull escorts away or come in straight at them, helming to keep a dead narrow profile. If wind is up, I can almost always go deep enough and come in straight on. Course it works much better with RSRD as the TF and convoys are spread out more and you have better lines to get in the herd. Nothing beats coming up in the middle of a TF or large convoy and being able to shoot all tubes at 700 yards.

[Alky]

As noted at the top of the page in that link, it was written for SH3, but the same princples apply to SH4. No the numbers aren't to scale, were talking principle here.
My main concern was that there is a huge difference between 300 meters and 300 feet. To dive 300 feet to avoid pings is one thing but to dive 300 meters, that would make pings irrelevant :haha:

That's why I wondered if it was a typo :)

[ZigmundFreund]

I note that you have a recent join date (9/10.) You comments re evasion and convoy/TF attack tactics were well thought out and thoroughly researched. :|\\ I appears you have a knack for the Sim and do your homework:up:.

Completely addicted would be the right term.

Most of you guys helped me a lot to get the feel of SH4(not even speaking of all your improvements!). I switched from playing the Vanilla version of SH3 like a kamikaze to 100% realism SH4 and I felt so green like I never played any submarine game before.

When I see a guy able to hit a BB flying at 33 knots from 4500 yards but unable to avoid depth charges. I felt I had to do some synthesis for the cause.:salute:

[ZigmundFreund]

Just remember a Cromwell still fixes you to a set course and with TMO even at that angle you're usually exposed to a flank that will ping you.

That's why I like to pull escorts away or come in straight at them, helming to keep a dead narrow profile. If wind is up, I can almost always go deep enough and come in straight on. Course it works much better with RSRD as the TF and convoys are spread out more and you have better lines to get in the herd. Nothing beats coming up in the middle of a TF or large convoy and being able to shoot all tubes at 700 yards.

I'd like to be your XO one day so you can teach me the maneuver. I never managed to pull this one out against more than one escort.

I dive to 500 feet flank speed and turn 90 degrees from the course of the destroyer who is still at least 8000 yards away, redusing speed as he get closer. For some reason he always manage to follow me.