After this performance... maybe I need to resign my commission...

[treblesum81]

40 torpedos, 7 different attack setups, 10 reloaded tries on the same large convoy (3 columns of 8-9 ships plus another 7-10 escorts), all with 0 hits... all fore or aft, not under.

I recently switched over to manual targeting, having watched the guides and read the how-to's, all with some good attacks, but for some reason, this one is eluding me. It doesn't matter what angle I come at the convoy, I have to stay too far away from them due to the escort screen being close in, so when I fire, the ships always evade the fish. I could understand the target evading, but the merchants are all packed up in a ball, I can't believe that all of them managed to evade it every time....

Any thoughts about what I'm doing wrong? Should I be using a different attack method? Could the problem be that the weather is perfect with no waves at all in the middle of the day?

Thanks

PS: I'm running TMO 1.9 and RSRDC

[NorthBeach]

Those conditions dictate patience. They're hearing the fish coming from a long way off.

I'd shadow them, and hope for any kind of weather (even wind, to whip up a chop, will help) to up the odds of success.

While you're out on the fringe, you might want to sprint out a bit, to give yourself some time to take a dip and find out where the thermal layer is. You could use that later, if conditions do not become optimal, to set up a sonar based vector analysis shot.

More than once, after tiring of waiting for "prime" conditions, I've used this approach. Set up a 60deg (or so) shot and wait under the thermal layer until just before the escort screen reaches my locaton (or, parallel to it). Timing it so that I can rise to a foot over max firing depth (based on the boat you're on) just before my first target is ripe.

[BillBam]

Could the problem be that the weather is perfect with no waves at all in the middle of the day?


I would think this is your problem. Long range shooting during perfect weather and during the day is pretty easy on the merchants for avoiding your torps.

Try stalking them until night time, then you not only can get closer but it will be much harder for them to see your torp wakes. If you must shoot under these conditions and using the PK be sure to dial in a wide angle spread on your fish.

[Fish40]

What he said!:agree:

[treblesum81]

I gave that a try (using the constant bearing method) and ba-dow! four shots, four hits... right now I'm stalking away for another end around.

Thanks for the tips.

PS: in this process I've found the weather to stay this way for days, so the best I can hope for is night, but still at least I've got some hits now.

[Rockin Robbins]

Rough water and lousy seeing with either rain, fog or dark are your friends. If you haven't already done so, drop by the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795) thread for a lot of great pointers by a lot of great posters. That thread is packed full of targeting ideas.

[treblesum81]

Rough water and lousy seeing with either rain, fog or dark are your friends. If you haven't already done so, drop by the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795) thread for a lot of great pointers by a lot of great posters. That thread is packed full of targeting ideas.

I finally got success after reading through your discussion about the three firing methods and getting my head around the constant bearing one... I still have trouble with getting proper ranges, but I was able to deliver a nice salvo without much trouble.... now if I could only figure out how to do it faster....

[NorthBeach]

"ba-dow! four shots, four hits" :yeah:

Once you get comfortable with O'Kane and VA shots, range will become an afterthought.Well, except to know that the fish will reach their targets. And, to know how to adjust your spread for sonar trail (sonar contacts are at the screw). Multiple targets can be taken care of using the gyro, selecting the farthest targets first. Extreme adjustments can be made with judicial use of power and rudder, combined with the gyro.

Practice, practice, practice...

Good on ya, mate!!!

*Oh, one important note! In severe weather, or when taking sonar shots, make ABSOLUTELY certain of the nationality of your target!!! Ask yourself, is there ANY way that my target could be Allied? SUBCOMPAC takes a dim view on losing a CV to friendly fire... :rotfl2:

[Diopos]

"ba-dow! four shots, four hits" :yeah:

Once you get comfortable with O'Kane and VA shots, range will become an afterthought.Well, except to know that the fish will reach their targets. And, to know how to adjust your spread for sonar trail (sonar contacts are at the screw). Multiple targets can be taken care of using the gyro, selecting the farthest targets first. Extreme adjustments can be made with judicial use of power and rudder, combined with the gyro.

Practice, practice, practice...

Good on ya, mate!!!

*Oh, one important note! In severe weather, or when taking sonar shots, make ABSOLUTELY certain of the nationality of your target!!! Ask yourself, is there ANY way that my target could be Allied? SUBCOMPAC takes a dim view on losing a CV to friendly fire... :rotfl2:

Another happy customer RR!

:DL


.

[Admiral8Q]

Well done!!!! :woot:

[treblesum81]

I'm still getting ships evading my torps, but at least the hit percentage is better. That being said, I still find it amazing that I can fire 4 fish into a ball (literally... they are almost running over each other even before I make my presence known) of enemy ships, and not manage to have all 4 hit at least something. I guess I'll keep practicing those long range shots to see what other tweaks can help put my torps where I want them to be rather than off to one side or another....

Now that I'm thinking about it, I think that the simple fact that the targets are all piled up on top of each other might be making my speed inputs to the TDC useless. I collect the data over a 5 minute period before the shot, but in that time I'm guessing that all the ships cutting each other off is creating a situation where the target is constantly speeding up and slowing down, so that at the time of the shot, the target can be much slower or much faster than the overall speed calculation suggests.

Are there any other / better ways to determine target speed? Or perhaps are there and situation dependent adjustments I should keep in mind in these types of scenarios? IE, when targets are jumbled, should I subtract a certain amount from the speed input to ensure that the traffic jam doesn't cause my fish to miss fore? Or be sure to fire at a certain point in a swerve so that the speed calculations are most accurate?

Thanks

[Diopos]

1) What kind of firing ranges are we talking about ?

2) Are you sure you're undetected? How are the Escorts/DDs behaving?

3) Try backing off, "shadow" the convoy and attack later on. Ships cutting into each other's course is (or better "should") not be typical. Which returns us to question 2.

[treblesum81]

1) What kind of firing ranges are we talking about ?

2) Are you sure you're undetected? How are the Escorts/DDs behaving?

3) Try backing off, "shadow" the convoy and attack later on. Ships cutting into each other's course is (or better "should") not be typical. Which returns us to question 2.

1) I'm shooting between 2000y and 4000y on high speed settings.

2) Yes I'm sure of being undetected. The escort DD's are either plodding ahead of the columns in a straight line, or doing typical flank protection (doing a sort of criss-cross maneuver while maintaining position relative to the fleet). They are not pinging me, looking around with search lights, or even coming specifically in my direction until AFTER the torpedo trails have been seen.

3) I have tried shadowing all night long with the same effect. The odd behavior of the convoy ships seems to be related to the size / composition of the fleet. Some ships are running in proper column formation, while others keep having to maneuver around them because they don't want to hit them. One perfect example of this is the Luzon invasion task force right at the beginning of my career. What should be 1-2 lines of convoy ships surrounded by a ring of DD's turns into a complete mess with DD's mixing in with convoy ships and everybody going everywhere except where they are supposed to go...

[Diopos]

The only thing I can think of is to try to get closer (in the ~1000 yard range) so as to to somewhat "cancel out" inaccuracies on the data you collect on your targets. Also,if you have electric torps try them first.
Other than that it seems that the convoy commander is on drugs or other heavy medication with very interesting side effects on his antisub defensive tactics...:DL



.

[magic452]

Those invasion convoys are a strange breed. Hard to get a clean shot at them. Those little troop ships maneuver much too fast.

For ranges of 2000+ yards you really have to have good (bad) conditions such as night or heavy weather.

Magic

[treblesum81]

Honestly how close should I be then for a good convoy attack? 1000y?

[I'm goin' down]

When you are set up and ready to unleash torpedoes, do the following:

Manual targeting --With the PK activated:

Check the Attack Map! The TDC will be operational, and if the firing solution is accurate, you will see a white "X" conspicuously displayed on the Attack Map with the "X" centered smack inthe middle of the target. The "X" will be accompanied a white line that should be aiming (i.e. "heading") in direction of the target's course. If the white line is heading in some other direction, the Aob requires readjustment. If the "X" is not centered on the ship, the range setting has been input inaccurately. If the "X" does not stay centered on target, the target's speed has been input inaccurately. If all three are off, take a second reading, etc. until you have an accurate set up (i.e. accurate firing solution). All of the entries for speed, Aob, and Range are made using the Attack Dials on the upper right of the periscope screen.

All of the forgoing assumes the target is proceeding along the course you have determined. If you have input the data correctly, but the target alters course or speed, the TDC readings will be inaccurate. That is one reason why destroyers are hard to track and find an accurate firing solution. Commonly destroyers can and do change course and speed, especially when search for submarines as they protect other ships.

Note: In the early part of the war set the torpedoes to run very shallow, as they ran deep historically as well as in the game. So in the early part of the war set the torpedo depth as shallow as you can, unless big warships are targeted, and even then, I recommend torpedoes' depths be set a around 15 feet to be on the safe side.

As of for Aob, use the Easy Aob mod listed in Neal Stevens' thread in the mod forum. To learn about Aob, study gutted 's Solution Solver program, a link to which is located in the same thread.

You might want to read Hitman's classic tutorial on manual targeting at 100% realism. It is old school, and you have to do some math, but you will learn about manual targeting and understand aspect ratio--the later of which is the key to finding range. That is where I started.

Range: Take the range setting after you have Identified the target using the ship chart accessible from the periscope view and sending its information to the TDC. Then confirm Range and aspect ratio using the Range Dial on the Target Dial.

Speed: set speed using the 3 minute rule. Draw your course line based up the line connecting the first and last readings of the your speed markings. From this course line, you can take your Aob readings.

And never forget to use the Attack Map to verify your solution when the PK is operational, as the solution for the target's speed, Aob and range are input into the TDC, the results of which are displayed on the Attack Map. Again, if the target changes course or speed, the TDC will not yield accurate readings, and consequently the firing solution shown on the Attack Map will not be accurate.

If the PK is not turned on, you will not have accurate TDC readings (or any TDC reading for that matter.) In this case, I suggest you follow Rockin Robbin's 3x5 cards for the O'Kane and Cromwell methods, or used gutted's Solution Solver program (which gives you the recommended firing angle.) If a sonar only attack, refer to Rockin Robbins or Werner Sobe's tutorials.

If map contacts are off, you are on your own!

If some of this does not make sense, try to figure out what area you are unable to conceptualize and read some tutorials or watch some video tutorials that are relevant. I did not figure this out overnight, so don't beat yourself up if some of the concepts do fall into place immediately.

Leaving aside this brilliant, condensed explanation (i.e. solution), you should be successful if you follow the above procedures using manual targeting.

By the way, glad to see you have taken up manual targeting. This is where the big boys hunt!! Welcome aboard.

Post script: Shortcutting any of the steps when setting up for a shot using manual targeting will likely lead to the TDC calculation being inaccurate (i.e. garbage in produces garbage out) and may result in an inaccurate firing solution. If the solution is inaccurate, the odds of the torpedoes making contact are dramatically reduced.

[I'm goin' down]

with escorts around, if you can get within 1,000 yds and have time to set up, you are doing great. I also am playing TMO1.9 and RSRDC. 1.9 is as tough as they come, and the dds can be vicious.

Cation should read "ideal", not "idea."

[I'm goin' down]

An aid in gauging distance and aspect ratio can be found in two mods for TMO1.9/RSRDC.

1. Ship Centered Accuracy Fix (SCAF) for TMO
2. Max Optics IV

To see original SH4 "tails" on the targets use the EasyPlot mod.