EA capability and RF homing

[Apocal]

I was just wondering if there was any implementation of the Sidekick (SLQ-32) electronic attack system in DW... I've looked up and down and all around the manual, scoured every pixel of the of the EW screen and can't even find a reference to it. Also, do any missiles in DW use passive RF homing instead of active radar guidance? They seem to be able to find me with 100% accuracy through chaff, with all my radars off.

[LuftWolf]

Yes, the HARM missile is modelled as an anti-radiation (ESM sensor) missile. I have not checked the db thoroughly, but if there is a sensor created, then other real-world antiradiation missiles in the game could be modelled as well.

In terms of anti-ship missiles, none of these are anti-radiation missiles as far as I know. Light anti-ship missiles use IR like the Penguin, but generally speaking an anti-ship ASuW missile is a large fast or sea-skimming vampire, making an active radar seeker the best homing option. :up:

In terms of evading an anti-ship missile, make sure you have your CIWS 20mm on AUTO in the Weapons Control station and an SM-2 missile loaded. Also, have your CM Autocrew engaged (bridge). When you get a vampire warning, fire your SM-2's at 'em! What don't die from the SAM's ell catch it from the vulcan! :rock: :arrgh!: Well, theoretically... :dead: :-j Actually, the generally consensus is that the OHP is toast from a barrage of Kitchen, Shipwreck, or 54E in RL, and some people think just one, or even half of one ( :88) )... :ping:

I don't have much experience with OHP, so I'm not sure about tactics involving the radar and EMCON, Emission Control (radars off), but I'd imagine having the air search radar on would greatly improve your ability to respond to ASM missiles. In fact, you'd probably want to have both of your radar's on most of the time, since just about anything in the water, air, or on the sea will be able to detect you before you detect them. However, I'm sure a more experienced OHP commander could fill in here. :hmm:

[TLAM Strike]

I've been attached by a few HARMs and when I shut the radar down they missed. ;)

[SeaQueen]

In terms of anti-ship missiles, none of these are anti-radiation missiles as far as I know.

I believe there was a ship-launched version of the the Standard ARM. The air-based version was based off the ship based Standard missile, so making a ship-launched ARM was not a big deal. I don't think they're still in inventory, though. They were included in the Harpoon database. They were useful. They put your target ship in a dilemna.

He could shut down his radars and take the hit from something like a Harpoon, or he could turn the radar on and try to shoot down both the ARM and the cruise missile. I can't help but think that the more different types of guidence one includes in a volley of missiles, the more difficult the volley is to shoot down, because it would require the application of different types of countermeasures. I might be wrong there, though.

I mean, the Harpoon was slow relative to Standard missiles, so who knows? A targetted ship could probably could turn his radar off, wait for the Standards to miss, then turn it back on again then shoot down the Harpoon. So maybe it's not such a big deal. The thought was good, though. Maybe with supersonic cruise missiles a similar weapon will make an appearence somewhere, someday.

[Apocal]

I don't have much experience with OHP, so I'm not sure about tactics involving the radar and EMCON, Emission Control (radars off), but I'd imagine having the air search radar on would greatly improve your ability to respond to ASM missiles. In fact, you'd probably want to have both of your radar's on most of the time, since just about anything in the water, air, or on the sea will be able to detect you before you detect them. However, I'm sure a more experienced OHP commander could fill in here. :hmm:

RE: EMCON vs. radiating,I was hoping that the depth (no pun intended) of the radar and detection model compared to that of the sonar model... but apparently that isn't the case. Oh well. Although I do like how radar contacts are initially fairly nebulous, you know it's an aircraft because it's moving 350 kts but is it hostile? COMAIR? Hostile posing as a COMAIR? Makes threat evaluation kinda interesting.

[SeaQueen]

I don't have much experience with OHP, so I'm not sure about tactics involving the radar and EMCON, Emission Control (radars off), but I'd imagine having the air search radar on would greatly improve your ability to respond to ASM missiles. In fact, you'd probably want to have both of your radar's on most of the time, since just about anything in the water, air, or on the sea will be able to detect you before you detect them. However, I'm sure a more experienced OHP commander could fill in here. :hmm:

Not necessarily. It depends a lot on your enemy's ability to detect you on ESM versus being able to detect you by other means, and the range you're at.

While turning the radar off makes it harder to detect incomming missiles, if the enemy can't localize you, he's unlikely to shoot a missile at you in the first place. That means there's really a compromise to be made between your ability to defend against incomming attacks, and your ability to remain undetected by ESM. In that case, the optimal choice might be to "blink" one or more radars while engaging in maneuvers designed to frustrate TMA.

It's a shame that one can't set AI ships to blink as well.

The advantage of the FFG is that it is very fast compared to a submarine, which can only go fast at the expense of stealth. A lot of learning to drive the FFG is learning to exploit that.

[LuftWolf]

Some players have reported that they are capable of completely spoofing both the Autocrew TMA and many human operators by timing their maneovers and speed changes with the TMA update cycles using the speed and maneoverability of the FFG, of course, I'm not one of those players. :-?

[Apocal]

So I'm guessing that there is no jammer capability modelled... that kinda sucks. The OHP needs every tool it can get in terms of effective missile defense. :damn:

[OKO]

So I'm guessing that there is no jammer capability modelled... that kinda sucks. The OHP needs every tool it can get in terms of effective missile defense. :damn:


what could suck is to modelise a jammer when the real OHP have NOT.
they have decoys but no jammer at all IRL, so it DOESN'T suck if a jammer isn't modelised here .....

the prairie masker is modelised, to reduce the sound of the OHP, as this plateform is one of the quietest surface plateform of the game. The prairie is modelised, but always on, you can't switch it off.


against ASW missile, you have chaff (effective if you really USE them), SM2, and CIWS.
on ASM warning, release chaff (you should set your CM with 4 chaff and 2 flares each side) every 2 or 3 sec then make a hard turn at flank behind them
If you managed to release enought chaff (~6) you have many chance to deceive the missile(s) even without shooting at it.
Of course, against supersonic ASM missile, you are in bad trouble ... as IRL

[SeaQueen]

So I'm guessing that there is no jammer capability modelled... that kinda sucks. The OHP needs every tool it can get in terms of effective missile defense. :damn:

Look in the USNI reference. Jammers ARE modeled.

[SeaQueen]

Of course, against supersonic ASM missile, you are in bad trouble ... as IRL

It seems like the critical thing in defending against anti-ship missiles in DW, is the time you have available to react. If you manage to detect the attack with sufficient time to apply countermeasures, then you will most likely survive. If you manage to detect with only a split second before the salvo hits you, then if the CIWS doesn't get all of the missiles in the volley, you're going to be out of action.

So the question becomes how do you maximize the amount of time you have to shoot at them? Besides adding an AEGIS cruiser... :-)

[LuftWolf]

If your helo is in the air, I would imagine he'd report a visual sighting of a missile launch to the link or REMRO in radar link mode. Althought, I haven't been in a position to verify this.

[Zerogreat]

So I'm guessing that there is no jammer capability modelled... that kinda sucks. The OHP needs every tool it can get in terms of effective missile defense. :damn:

Look in the USNI reference. Jammers ARE modeled.

I also though they are not, until i noticed it in the database. Do you know how are they modelled? How they work?

[LuftWolf]

According to rumor, the Prairie Masker is modelled as always running, meaning that the OHP should be quieter than the average ship all the time.

However, in the standard database this is not modelled significantly and there is no jammer at all. The only thing on the OHP that could be confused with a jammer is the Nixie Torpedo Decoy or the chaff/flares.

FYI, Amizaur and I have made modelled the OHP has being actually quieter than other ships, so for all practical purposes, the jammer is taken into account in the next version of our mod. :up:

[MaHuJa]

I can't help but think that the more different types of guidence one includes in a volley of missiles, the more difficult the volley is to shoot down, because it would require the application of different types of countermeasures. I might be wrong there, though.

Under the assumption that the number of missiles aren't increased, but only diversified, and the (reasonable) assumption that the defender has a diverse set of countermeasures (as in chaff AND flares) then that only means that he gets to use all his countermeasures to some effect, instead of just some.


Also, the jammers aren't implemented in any way that I've noticed. Unless there is something that e.g. gives the perry a lower radar profile for fire control radars (which is a sensor class along with radar, esm, sonar, and used in "Wep Radar" last I checked)


And I have NEVER gotten any information on enemy weapons from anywhere but my own radars/EW/lookouts/sonars. Ever. I know AI units share enemy weapon info on the datalink, but the human player is simply not allowed this info. Nor does REMRO show enemy missiles. It should have shown me some by now, I've had enemy missiles flying right by my helicopter undetected until they activated.

[LuftWolf]

Yikes! :o

Thanks for the correction. :up:

That's right, I do seem to remember hearing that human players don't share weapons over the link for some reason. :hmm:

[SeaQueen]

I also though they are not, until i noticed it in the database. Do you know how are they modelled? How they work?

I'm not familiar enough with the DW radar model to say. I've looked in the database too. I wish I knew more about it. It looks like they use something similar to the sonar equation for all the sensors. How it all fits together, though, has not yet sunk in to me.

[SeaQueen]

Under the assumption that the number of missiles aren't increased, but only diversified, and the (reasonable) assumption that the defender has a diverse set of countermeasures (as in chaff AND flares) then that only means that he gets to use all his countermeasures to some effect, instead of just some.


That makes sense. I don't know what I was thinking.



And I have NEVER gotten any information on enemy weapons from anywhere but my own radars/EW/lookouts/sonars. Ever. I know AI units share enemy weapon info on the datalink, but the human player is simply not allowed this info. Nor does REMRO show enemy missiles. It should have shown me some by now, I've had enemy missiles flying right by my helicopter undetected until they activated.

I think they need to fix that. If they don't, then it makes the defensive power of a concentration of AI warships MUCH more than an equivilent concentration of non-AI warships. It also makes the one human player in a concentration of enemy warships potentially more vulnerable than the rest of the ships in the same concentration. It also makes it more difficult for a non-AI player to add his defensive power to a concentration of warships.

This makes no sense to me. They either need to prohibit sharing of info between AIs, or (more sensibly) share the info with humans that the AIs are getting.

Even so, a lot of the time I do get cued that there's a missile around when another warship fires his own defenses. In my experience, that all by itself can frequently be valuable.

[Apocal]

So I'm guessing that there is no jammer capability modelled... that kinda sucks. The OHP needs every tool it can get in terms of effective missile defense. :damn:

Look in the USNI reference. Jammers ARE modeled.

Damn... looked all over the place and it was there the whole time!

Of course, against supersonic ASM missile, you are in bad trouble ... as IRL

In game, I actually don't have much problem with supersonic high divers... it's the seaskimmers that knock my ship around.