LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod

[LuftWolf]

Here is the readme. I will create a thread in the Mod Workshop for bugs and suggestions, feel free to use this thread for compliments and praise. :yep: :lol: :88) I will send the v1.0 distribution to Bill after I get some coffee. :|\ :hulk:

LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors "One Stop Fix" Mod v1.0
Hosted by Subguru www.subguru.com
Readme by LuftWolf

Amizaur has contributed equally to this project. Thank you to finiteless for his general
contribution to modding DW. Thank you to Bill "Subguru" Nichols for hosting the work of so
many talented modders and mission designers.

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW gameplay that
most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without
introducing any new ones. Thank you in advancing for downloading this mod. Please send as
much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread in the Subsim DW Mod Workshop forum.

INSTALLATION: Unzip the file into your Dangerous Water directory, the Database files and
Doctrine files will install to the appropriate directories on their own. I recommend backing
up your Database and Doctrine folders before making any changes.

Please note, all values included here are actual Database values, and may not correspond
to real-life parameters, including those left unchanged and listed accurately in the in-game
reference.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
v1.0

Database Changes:

Akula I/II--

53cm Torpedo- given UGST specifications: Active/Passive Multipurpose Wireguided Torpedo,
30km@50kph, with maximum depth 800m (less on fire-control preset panel) with
300kg warhead (vs. MK48 ADCAP 850m depth w/350kg warhead).

65cm Torpedo- guidance sensor and doctrine changed to simulate 65-76 Wakehoming Hydrogen Peroxide-powered Torpedo (the type supposedly removed after the Kursk
Incident). All specifications have been left the same except guidance-following
the wakehome doctrine now-and the the wire has been removed. The wire-guidance
option has been disable in-game, but I can't change the fire-control graphics,
so you'll just have to remember that the A/P and search pattern buttons do
nothing, and that the torpedo will continue in a straigh line after it enables.
LAUNCH THE TORPEDO WITH THE DEPTH SET AT ~10m, depending on how lucky you feel
that day. The Nixie should not affect this weapon in any way, but over-the-side
decoys will cause enough of a disturbance in the water to distrupt the
wakehoming, but the torpedo will not detonate on the CM's, and usually
reaquire.

SS-N-27 ASM-BETA- Changed to a two stage weapon, to simulate it's two phase-attack and evasive maneovering. The final stage of the weapon has a maximum range of 20000m (11nm), meaning that the launch stage (which drops the attack stage) must enable between
2nm and 11nm, to allow the missle enough time to acquire within its range.
Practically, this means that the missle can engage targets between ~6nm (4nm
enable, 2nm attack) and 119nm (108nm max range to enable first stage, 11nm max
range for attack stage). It is best to enable the weapon as far from the
target as possible to expose as little of the "slow" stage to ship defenses.
Note, at about 16nm before enable point, the missle will pop up to 300ft and
enable for 10 seconds, then return to seaskimming altitude of 30ft. This
simulates an acquisition phase of the actual missle, but may give the target
a good chance of tracking the incoming vampire. Note, after playing around with
the new SS-N-27, my impressions are: you have to employ more skill to use
it, as you only have a 11nm window; if you use it right, you can get the super-
sonic stage to launch just as the first SAM approach your missles, making this
an even more deadly anti-ship missle, when used with skill.

Akula II Passive Sound Levels- I have set the volume levels of the two Akula II's equal to
the quieter one (between the 688(i) and the Seawolf). Previously, the Vepr' was
slightly quieter than the Gepard. In some sense, this is personal perference,
but it seems to make sense, given that all other ships of the same class
have the same in-game specs, as far as I know.

Surface Ships--

Russian SVTT-Ship Launched Torpedos- Changed to USET-80, to better reflect Russian
capabilites. Note, only Russian SVTT launchers previously
equipped with 53cm torpedos have been changed, some launchers are equipped
with other torpedos. Also, the Grisha FFL retains the 53cm Torpedo w/UGST
specifications, as the USNR in-game database says its launchers have
been modified to fire wire-guided torpedos, so I thought it might
be interesting.

Radar Heights Changed-BETA- Some radar heights have been lowered, as previously some ships had been able to see too far over the horizon. Also, the minimum altitude
of the AEGIS SPY-1 Radar has been lowered from 5000ft to 10ft, which should
help them better track sea-skimming vampires.


688(i)--

688(i) Towed Arrays- Added TB-23 as starboard array. The reason I have kept it
on the starboard, against what is commonly reported, is because in missions
where ownship starts with TA deployed, it is always the starboard array, and I
figured in most situations I would want that one deployed. The port TB-16
washes out at ~20kts and the TB-23 washes out at around ~16kts (you folks
can tell me if that feels right once you play around with it...
or if I'm just completely off...). I have set the sensitivity of the TB-23
to be pretty much in the middle of the TB-16 and the TB-29. I was even able to
change the names in game, so have fun captains!

Mines--

SLMM and Mobile Mine--Includes Doctrine Files
A fix that makes them stop making noise after they have stopped moving has been
applied to both weapons. In addition, they will now actively try to stop once
they have reached their assigned location and will be reliably on target and hold
their position, making them an effective weapon, which they were not before. Their
maximum usable depth remains the same (300ft for SLMM and 450ft for Mobile mines,
the range of their seekers), but the weapon will shutdown below 600ft. These weapons
are for use in shallow water and will "malfunction" in deep water. ;-) Also, do not
try to use these weapons on a steep slope.

Missle Parameters--

Passive Signature for Underwater Missle Launch--
All sub-launched missles now produce a very noisy transient when launched and a TIW
warning (I believe). The exception to this is the Harpoon, which is much quieter,
simulating its launch from a canister which opens up once it gets to the surface,
making it a better option verse the TASM than previously.

IR Signatures-
IR signatures added for all missles based on type, with a reasonable scaling from
seaskimming cruise-missles to supersonic, rocket powered anti-ship missles. This now
makes RAMs effective against anti-ship missles.

Amizaur's MANPAD Seeker Fix-
We have included the fix that has been around for sometime, reducing the seeker cone
of MANPADs to 3 degrees.

Doctrines:

Included in this "One Stop" Distribution, are a compilation of doctrine files that improve
DW and provide compatibility for this mod, all done by Amizaur.

MissleSkim54E-- Doctrines are necessary for Two Stage SS-N-27 ASM.

SLMM-- Necessary for SLMM/Mobile Mine fix.

SubAvoid...-- Doctrines correct a bug in sub evasion routines that tells them to come too
shallow while evading, causing cavitation. Well tested.

Missle/MissleSam-- Corrects minor bugs in missle function. Well tested.


Subroc Attack.txt-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points.

Torpedo.txt- randomizes the left/right of Snake search pattern.

CIWSAttack.txt-ALPHA- Directs ships to fire a barrage of missles at "hard" targets, very close or very fast. It is your choice to include this, you can backup
your original CIWSAttack.txt doctrine and change the name of the file
included. I have played with this, and it definately makes ships launch more
SAM's at incoming vampires. I have yet to encounter any serious bugs with it.

That's it! I hope you enjoy! Please let me know if you find any errors, would like to
contribute to a future release, or have any suggestions or comments. The place is the
Subsim Mod Workshop!.

Happy Hunting.

LW

[LuftWolf]

In looking through the database one last time, I have decided to set the passive SL of both Akula II's equal to each other, as that seems to make more sense. Previously the Vepr' was slightly quieter than the Gepard. Now, they are both between the Seawolf and the 688(i).

Time to zip her up... :up:

[Bill Nichols]

I'll gladly host this mod. Expect my next site update tomorrow (Saturday 13 Aug).

[Ula Jolly]

I would be tempted to investigate... will a SAM missile actually avoid killing the SS-N-27 after it reaches supersonic, or would the game give it a much too good reaction?

[Amizaur]

The point is that the base SS-N-27 ASM missile never goes supersonic :-). It only relases supersonic second stage - graphics of this one are borrowed from AS-12 Keglar. It's only a first demo now, an example that it's possible to do and it works quite well. The SAM missile usually kills the subsonic SS-N-27 carrier missile but at this moment stage 2 is usually relased and going to the target at 1900kts. The ship have to fire second SAM to shoot down the supersonic stage, and sometimes doesn't make this in time before is hit... On the other hand if the missile is detected and engaged in subsonic phase, it's shoot down quite easily before it relases second stage.
It's a matter of SS-N-27 missile settings (knowing range to target), ship radar horizon, early detection, reaction times and some luck :-) To use it efectively you have to know range to target, so you have to do TMA and find a solution, if you fire it simply on bearing of the target, most likely you don't hit anything or it be shoot down easily. On the other hand, if you know range to target and set optimal enable point, it's quite deadly and even single one can pass ship defences sometime :-). It's side effect of current version shortcomings, but balances the game quite nicely I think. Not so easy to use (and kill everything on the surface by bearing only) as it was, but quite deadly if you work out range to target first. Sounds OK ? :-)
The missile model works quite close to what is known about real 3M54E, the only difference is that it does not detect targets in subsonic phase yet, the standard weapon sensor range is too short. It turns radar on during pop-up maneuver to be detectable by ESM (and give some warning to target, as real one) but actual target detection is done by second stage currently, that's why setting enable point right is so important now. In the future new version is planned which will make target search in subsonic phase and will relase second stage on optimal distance by itself, but it needs much work - I don't know when it will be ready so I'm relasing basic version now. It's only technology demostrator, an example how it could be done. But works quite good even now, me thinks :-) Try it :-)

[Kapitan]

Gepard is quieter than vepr but there is one other thing

WHERE IS K419 MORZH?

K419 morzh is an akula I improved but she is not on the list where is she ?

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, once again, fantastic job on the ss-n-27. :know:

Kapitan, in the stock database, the gepard is listed with PSL 65, and the Vepr' is listed with PSL 64. As I have said in the readme, I don't know the actual values, but I know what feels right to me in game terms.

I believe the reason they would have had the vepr quieter is because it has the extra transmission quieting measures that the Gepard doesn't (it's a little shorter I think). On the otherhand, the rearraigment of the TA might give it a lower BB signal, so I made them equal. It seemed to make more sense.

[Kapitan]

vepr was launched before gepard so normaly its an advancement thats made on the next one.

the gepard doesnt have the distinctive bullet on the rear as vepr does
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/turnakula.jpg

vepr showing the bullet

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y262/russian-navy01/gepard.jpg

gepard showing no bullet

the diffrence between the gepard an vepr doesnt stop there vepr can dive only to 660 meters yet the gepard 675meters gepard is a prototype for new systerms and in some cases classified as Akula III

the akula 2 SSN's displace 12,000 tonnes where normaly akula only displace 9,000tonnes the speeds are the same but gepard is the most advanced akula submarine there is and proven by the west it is the quietest SSN yet produced by the russians.

[Kapitan]

(it's a little shorter I think). gepard is acctualy 3 feet longer than vepr :up:

[LuftWolf]

The mod is up on Bill's site! I hope you all try it and give us some feedback! :arrgh!:

K-

Thanks for pictures!

I'm talking about in the game... I'm not sure why SCS would have made the Gepard louder in the database but they did.

I would recommend downloading and installing our mod! Plus, you get all the great Russian weapons! :up: :know: :sunny:

If you don't want to change up everything, than you can get Ludgar's excellent database editor (I use it for all my modding needs) or Jsteed's new editor (I've never tried it, but I'm sure it's great) and change the PSL in the object database yourself (using the editor is super easy, if can figure out the what the individual values mean, which even Ludgar and the DWX boys don't know yet), otherwise, your DW doesn't reflect your convictions. ;) :-j

[TLAM Strike]

I just tryed the new SS-N-27 ASMs and all they do is drop in to the sea when they reach the enable point. :down:

[Kapitan]

yes i also had a fluke launch i was on surface fired a SS-N-27 on surface 3 knots and it bounced off the water then crashed into the water :( not good

[LuftWolf]

I just tested mine and it worked fine (I reinstalled it from the distribution I sent to Bill).

Make sure the doctrine files are installed. All three of the Missleskim54e doctrines must be installed.

Also, make sure you have set the weapon to enable within 11nm of the target, and watch the weapon.

I should have added in the readme, it is best to try this one in a test mission with truth on before going to war with it, as it can be tricky to use.

Also, to be sure, the correct command to use when ranging the missle is "seeker range", in-game, this is the point when the supersonic second stage will launch, with a max range of 11nm. If you use the "destruct range" as the enable point, then it will definately destroy itself. :dead:

Trust us, it works. :up:

And if it doesn't after you have tried my suggestions, then I will do whatever it takes to get it to work for you. I have to go out for a bit, but I will check later. :up:

[TLAM Strike]

I reinstalled and it now works. I guess one of the files didn't copy.

Time to go check the mines, I've been bitching about them since the demo...

[DivingWind]

I'll rather wait for official patch.(for online play purposes)

[PeriscopeDepth]

I'll rather wait for official patch.(for online play purposes)

You're more patient than I am. :D

[Kapitan]

yep and me :D

[jsteed]

Hi Luftwolf & Amizaur,

Well done :up: The two stage SS-N-27 is a very nice idea. Although I haven't played DW for some time now, (went back to SC because of active sonar bug), I congratulate you both on your efforts. Hopefully, you will continue to develop your db/doctrine mods.

cheers, jsteed

[LuftWolf]

TLAM-- I'm glad you got it working. I hope you enjoy the MM fix as well, that is Amizaur's work, too. Given the complexity of the fixes, I think now that it deserved a special note in the readme that Amizaur did them. I will definately include that as a fix for myself in any subsequent versions. :know: :up: :|\

Thanks guys...

If you use it for MP, let us know what you think! :yep:

I wouldn't want to be in an FFG... :ping:

[TLAM Strike]

Noticed another thing. SS-N-27s can be tracked in Stage 1 on sonar. They don't fade like a real launch transient.

Just seems strange... :shifty:

[LuftWolf]

TLAM

This is a direct consequence of the Missle Launch Sound fix. In the DB, all sublaunched missles have a 100 PSL. The TASM and the SS-N-27 (both I have tested and exhibit this phenomenon) are seaskimming missles, travelling over the water at around 30ft.

This entirely unintended, and a consequence of the DW sound physics engine.

You guys can tell me how it should be... I suppose this makes ASM much less attractive now. So I guess I should ask our sonar men: will a seaskimming missle leave a transient?

Edit: Well, I've pretty much figured out that objects travelling at sea-skimming level and little above are treated by the sound engine as being on the surface. :doh: This is unexpected and unwelcome, as the fix was the same as that applied to SCX, so I guess that means something has been changed and needs to be changed again. :hmm:

Edit Two: GRRRR..... Well, that didn't take long. SOME sonar sensors are set to have a detection capability at 300ft above sea-level, but not all.

I have to fix this, since the game isn't generally written where I'd want that to be the case. I want to email Amizaur and ask him about this, but I'm pretty sure I can go ahead with this.

Expect an updated version very soon, this should be a simple fix. :up: :hulk: :damn:

Thanks TLAM for bringing this up.

[LuftWolf]

Ok, I believe I have resolved the problem. Previously, all playable hull sonars' max height were set to 0m (ok), but all the sphere and TA sonars were set to 300m. According to my understanding of array geometry, max-min shouldn't affect the operation of it in the cone.

So, I have changed all playable passive sonars to have max height of 10m and min height of -3000m. I found that if I set it to 0, then even in low seas contacts would not display correctly on the waterfall. I have changed the hull sonars as well, in order to be consistent. In addition, I have changed the sonar buoy parameters to match these as well, to eliminate the same skipping problem.

Everything seems to work and the seaskimmers don't show up on sonar anymore.

I and a few others need to play around with it a little bit more to be sure I haven't messed anything up. If anyone wants to look at the fix, send me a PM. :|\

[Mercedes]

The test torpedos used by the Kilo's doesn't appear to respond to guidence input from the wire after the weapons mod. They still respond to enable/pre-enable and shutdown commands. As far as I can remember they originally had full capability in the unmodded version.

Correct me if i'm wrong on this one.

[LuftWolf]

Those torpedos have been unaffected by the mod. They can only be steered before they have enabled for the first time, if I remember correctly. :up:

[Mercedes]

Thanks!

[Wim Libaers]

I think the sonar sensitivity to air units was intended to be able to track ASW helicopters using the passive dipping sonar. Does that still work with the mod?

[LuftWolf]

That actually never worked, as no air objects have Passive Sound Levels in the standard database.

Given the fact that the sound engine doesn't make a distinction that I can find between objects underwater and objects not underwater, within the detection max-min of the passive sonar senors, it doesn't seem likely that this feature can be included without significant reworking.

I suppose we could give helo's a low PSL (around 20-40), but then they would behave exactly like quiet underwater objects, and it would mean making the passive sonar heights higher, which would then present the same problem as before.

So, the basic problem here is that the game makes no distinction between water and air as far as passive-sonar detectable sound goes, as far as I can tell. The only way to work around this so as not to produce anything funny in gameplay that is significant, is to lower the max height of passive sonar, as the helo-sonar feature seems a bit more minor than the persistant missle transients or silent missle launches, especially because SCS didn't even make a serious attempt at including it.

PS. I'm feeling better and better about the sonar fix. I think I can send v1.01 to Bill this afternoon, but I'd like to hear back from Amizaur first. ;) :smug:

[LuftWolf]

Ok, I've sent v1.01 with the playable passive sonar fix to Bill. :doh: :sunny:

[Bill Nichols]

Ok, I've sent v1.01 with the playable passive sonar fix to Bill. :doh: :sunny:

It's up now. :up:

[LuftWolf]

Thanks Bill! :D

Here is the v1.01 addition to the readme, really just a rehashing...

V1.01

Playable Passive Sonar Parameters-BETA- All playable passive sonar arrays have changed to have a Maximum detection of height of 10m. Previously hull sonars and buoys had a Max of 0m
and sphere and towed arrays had a max of 300m. This caused any object with a passive
sound level to show up on sonar as if it were underwater, specifically seaskimming
missles whose sound levels were changed in this mod to simulate underwater missle
launch (Thank you TLAM Strike for finding this). I have not set the depths to 0m because this causes contacts to display inconsistently on the BB waterfall. I do
not believe that cone sensitivity is effected in any way by this fix within the
detection Max and and Mins, but there could be other issues I am not aware of. This
may be refined later, but it is necessary now to address persistent sea-skimming
missle transients.

[Dr.Sid]

I tracked helo from sub several times ! I must check it out .. I'm not sure wich sensor I did use.
With Seastate=0 (unrealistic but possible in DW) you can track helo for several miles. It just have to be at low altitude. On tests I made once it was at 50ft. Once I also saw mh60 in akula, during SP mission. I was near PD and helo went right over me. I saw it for few seconds like fast moving 'spike' on the NB. I also died soon later :-)
Helo contacts have no NB lines (which coresponds to what real sonarmen report).

[LuftWolf]

Dr. Sid

That is very very interesting. I went back and checked the database more carefully.

SOME air ASW platforms have a PSL and some don't. Again, I have no idea why SCS would make this the case. The Seahawks have a PSL of around 50, and the Orions are *quieter*, around 40. (??? :hmm: )

So, apparently, they did include that. :doh: :doh:

However, in order for the missle transient fix to work properly, I had to make those changes, at least as far as I know. So, yes, I have now disabled the feature that allows subs to track air-platforms, but only a random selection of them were trackable anyway, so I don't feel too bad about that, at least not yet. :shifty: Also, as thing were set, you'd be able to track any air-platform with a PSL up to 900ft (according to my tests, it could just be that I was dealing with objects that were very loud), so even if the helo just flew high over you, it would still have shown up on BB.

I am totally open to suggestions about how to handle this. :yep: :sunny:

Edit: random thought, if you hear a helo in a sub, you're dead. Does it matter what dead men hear? :-j :rotfl:

[LuftWolf]

Based on what you are saying, it is possible that there is some kind of muffling feature that the game employs for sounds above sea-level, but apparently, the seaskimming missles were loud and low enough that the muffling was not nearly sufficient, and they showed up as if they were underwater.

This raises some new avenues of investigation... :ping: :o :hmm: :damn: :huh: :|\ :know:

[PeriscopeDepth]

Just going through the DB in your mod, and when you were raising the SLs for sub launched missiles it seems you forgot to raise the C801's (carried by the Han) also. Sorry for being so picky.

[LuftWolf]

Whoops, got me! Sorry about that oversite... :oops: I'll make sure it gets corrected when we do our next version, in the meantime those of you who mind, can fix it with the DB editor (just download the editor to you database folder, load the DB, find the C801 in the object list using the search function and change the Passive Sound Level to 100, make sure you save the DB before you exit the editor, many o'change has been lost that way... ;) ) unless there is an overwhelming outcry demanding a new version... :lol: :|\

[PeriscopeDepth]

Same for the Exocet too. :)

[LuftWolf]

:doh:

Thanks!

Credits to you in the next version readme! :up: :|\

[LuftWolf]

I have a BETA for a fix to the SLAM-ER that would justify a new version of the mod if it works correctly. I have started a new thread just for the SLAM-ER fix, as I feel it is important.

Let me know what you think, I need people's opinion and a few Orion specialists to take a look.

[Kapitan]

ive never tried the P3 or the MH60 or infact the seawolf hmmm i need some advice

[LuftWolf]

Ok I'm routinely blowing up buildings with SLAM-ER's now, no problems whatsoever. So I think v1.02 is ready to go except for the .zip distribution.

I should add, the SLAM-ER is not the greatest weapon, because it is about as accurate as a TLAM but with half of the warhead, so you need a few of them to really put on the hurt, but I suppose, such is life. :|\ :up:

[Kapitan]

i prefer the SS-N-27 :up:

[TLAM Strike]

i prefer the SS-N-27 :up:
I think the TLAM-N has that beat... at least when it comes to land attack
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/478/potassiumiodide138an.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Kapitan]

SS-N-27 is nuclear capible

[TLAM Strike]

But it has a range of only 300 miles and is ballistic Vs. the TLAM witch has a range of 600 miles and is terrain following.

[LuftWolf]

Ok, v1.02 (of Amizaur and my mod) is all ready. Here is the addition to the readme.

v1.02

SLAM-ER Fix--I have removed the missle's IR seeker, which apparenlty was interfering with its terminal homing. The missile now looks in the DB and behaves in the game
like a light TLAM, and, *functions correctly*, exploding on target with
the same accuracy of a TLAM. Note, this weapon is not the most effective strike
missle, as it has less than half of the warhead of the TLAM, meaning you need
more than one missle to destroy medium and heavy targets if the missle does
not land directly on target. Even small, light targets may escape the blast of
this missle if it overshoots. For some reason, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE WAYPOINTS, THIS MISSLE WILL NOT WORK!!! I can't change this, and I'm not sure why.

Sublaunced Missle Passive Sonar Sound Levels- C801 and Exocet underwater missle launch sound added, overlooked in previous versions. Thank you to PeriscopeDepth for finding this.

[Kapitan]

where did you get that info from ?????? SS-N-27 im sure is more than capible of 1500km

[LuftWolf]

For some reason, if you don't change the middle two waypoints, the missle will not function properly. If you do change the waypoints, the missile will work 85% of the time, plus, in terms of causing damage to the target, the other times it seems to be a clean miss.

[Kapitan]

hmmm sounds like a problem :know: :lol:

[LuftWolf]

It mostly works now more than it mostly didn't before. That's the point, isn't it? :-j :|\ :arrgh!: :damn:

[Kapitan]

confuzzeled

[LuftWolf]

I put the quickfixitation on it rather than the decomplitated analysization.

But it works! :up:

[Kapitan]

huh ?

[TLAM Strike]

where did you get that info from ?????? SS-N-27 im sure is more than capible of 1500km

FAS.org listed it at 300 miles. While USNI lists it at 162 miles.

Are you thinking of the SS-N-21 'SAMPSON' (Also called the Kh-55 Granat, AS-15 Kent, and SSC-4 Slingshot) it has a range of 3000 km and is nuclear capable.

[Kapitan]

thats the one lol i dont know how i can keep getting those two mixed up second time lol

[LuftWolf]

This mod is now in v1.02!

Available from www.subguru.com

Here is a repost of the entire v1.02 readme. ;) :up:

LuftWolf and Amizaur's Weapons and Sensors "One Stop Fix" Mod v1.02
Hosted by Subguru www.subguru.com
Readme by LuftWolf

Amizaur has contributed equally to this project. Thank you to finiteless for his general
contribution to modding DW. Thank you to Bill "Subguru" Nichols for hosting the work of so
many talented modders and mission designers.

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW gameplay that
most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without
introducing any new ones. Thank you in advancing for downloading this mod. Please send as
much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread in the Subsim DW Mod Workshop forum.

INSTALLATION: Unzip the file into your Dangerous Water directory, the Database files and
Doctrine files will install to the appropriate directories on their own. I recommend backing
up your Database and Doctrine folders before making any changes.

Please note, all values included here are actual Database values, and may not correspond
to real-life parameters, including those left unchanged and listed accurately in the in-game
reference.

v1.02

SLAM-ER Fix--I have removed the missle's IR seeker, which apparenlty was interfering with its terminal homing. The missile now looks in the DB and behaves in the game
like a light TLAM, and, *functions correctly*, exploding on target with
the same accuracy of a TLAM. Note, this weapon is not the most effective strike
missle, as it has less than half of the warhead of the TLAM, meaning you need
more than one missle to destroy medium and heavy targets if the missle does
not land directly on target. Even small, light targets may escape the blast of
this missle if it overshoots. For some reason, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE WAYPOINTS, THIS MISSLE WILL NOT WORK!!! I can't change this, and I'm not sure why.

Sublaunced Missle Passive Sonar Sound Levels- C801 and Exocet underwater missle launch sound added, overlooked in previous versions. Thank you to PeriscopeDepth for finding this.


V1.01

Playable Passive Sonar Parameters-BETA- All playable passive sonar arrays have changed to have a Maximum detection of height of 10m. Previously hull sonars and buoys had a Max of 0m
and sphere and towed arrays had a max of 300m. This caused any object with a passive
sound level to show up on sonar as if it were underwater, specifically seaskimming
missles whose sound levels were changed in this mod to simulate underwater missle
launch (Thank you TLAM Strike for finding this). I have not set the depths to 0m because this causes contacts to display inconsistently on the BB waterfall. I do
not believe that cone sensitivity is effected in any way by this fix within the
detection Max and and Mins, but there could be other issues I am not aware of. This
may be refined later, but it is necessary now to address persistent sea-skimming
missle transients.


v1.0

Database Changes:

Akula I/II--

53cm Torpedo- given UGST specifications: Active/Passive Multipurpose Wireguided Torpedo,
30km@50kph, with maximum depth 800m (less on fire-control preset panel) with
300kg warhead (vs. MK48 ADCAP 850m depth w/350kg warhead).

65cm Torpedo- guidance sensor and doctrine changed to simulate 65-76 Wakehoming Hydrogen Peroxide-powered Torpedo (the type supposedly removed after the Kursk
Incident). All specifications have been left the same except guidance-following
the wakehome doctrine now-and the the wire has been removed. The wire-guidance
option has been disable in-game, but I can't change the fire-control graphics,
so you'll just have to remember that the A/P and search pattern buttons do
nothing, and that the torpedo will continue in a straigh line after it enables.
LAUNCH THE TORPEDO WITH THE DEPTH SET AT ~10m, depending on how lucky you feel
that day. The Nixie should not affect this weapon in any way, but over-the-side
decoys will cause enough of a disturbance in the water to distrupt the
wakehoming, but the torpedo will not detonate on the CM's, and usually
reaquire.

SS-N-27 ASM-BETA--Mod By Amizaur-- Changed to a two stage weapon, to simulate it's two phase-attack and evasive maneovering. The final stage of the weapon has a maximum range of 20000m (11nm), meaning that the launch stage (which drops the attack stage) must enable between
2nm and 11nm, to allow the missle enough time to acquire within its range.
Practically, this means that the missle can engage targets between ~6nm (4nm
enable, 2nm attack) and 119nm (108nm max range to enable first stage, 11nm max
range for attack stage). It is best to enable the weapon as far from the
target as possible to expose as little of the "slow" stage to ship defenses.
Note, at about 16nm before enable point, the missle will pop up to 300ft and
enable for 10 seconds, then return to seaskimming altitude of 30ft. This
simulates an acquisition phase of the actual missle, but may give the target
a good chance of tracking the incoming vampire. Note, after playing around with
the new SS-N-27, my impressions are: you have to employ more skill to use
it, as you only have a 11nm window; if you use it right, you can get the super-
sonic stage to launch just as the first SAM approach your missles, making this
an even more deadly anti-ship missle, when used with skill.

Akula II Passive Sound Levels- I have set the volume levels of the two Akula II's equal to
the quieter one (between the 688(i) and the Seawolf). Previously, the Vepr' was
slightly quieter than the Gepard. In some sense, this is personal perference,
but it seems to make sense, given that all other ships of the same class
have the same in-game specs, as far as I know.

Surface Ships--

Russian SVTT-Ship Launched Torpedos- Changed to USET-80, to better reflect Russian
capabilites. Note, only Russian SVTT launchers previously
equipped with 53cm torpedos have been changed, some launchers are equipped
with other torpedos. Also, the Grisha FFL retains the 53cm Torpedo w/UGST
specifications, as the USNR in-game database says its launchers have
been modified to fire wire-guided torpedos, so I thought it might
be interesting.

Radar Heights Changed-BETA- Some radar heights have been lowered, as previously some ships had been able to see too far over the horizon. Also, the minimum altitude
of the AEGIS SPY-1 Radar has been lowered from 5000ft to 10ft, which should
help them better track sea-skimming vampires.


688(i)--

688(i) Towed Arrays- Added TB-23 as starboard array. The reason I have kept it
on the starboard, against what is commonly reported, is because in missions
where ownship starts with TA deployed, it is always the starboard array, and I
figured in most situations I would want that one deployed. The port TB-16
washes out at ~20kts and the TB-23 washes out at around ~16kts (you folks
can tell me if that feels right once you play around with it...
or if I'm just completely off...). I have set the sensitivity of the TB-23
to be pretty much in the middle of the TB-16 and the TB-29. I was even able to
change the names in game, so have fun captains!

Mines--

SLMM and Mobile Mine--Mod by Amizaur--Includes Doctrine Files
A fix that makes them stop making noise after they have stopped moving has been
applied to both weapons. In addition, they will now actively try to stop once
they have reached their assigned location and will be reliably on target and hold
their position, making them an effective weapon, which they were not before. Their
maximum usable depth remains the same (300ft for SLMM and 450ft for Mobile mines,
the range of their seekers), but the weapon will shutdown below 600ft. These weapons
are for use in shallow water and will "malfunction" in deep water. ;-) Also, do not
try to use these weapons on a steep slope.

Missle Parameters--

Passive Signature for Underwater Missle Launch--
All sub-launched missles now produce a very noisy transient when launched and a TIW
warning (I believe). The exception to this is the Harpoon, which is much quieter,
simulating its launch from a canister which opens up once it gets to the surface,
making it a better option verse the TASM than previously.

IR Signatures-
IR signatures added for all missles based on type, with a reasonable scaling from
seaskimming cruise-missles to supersonic, rocket powered anti-ship missles. This now
makes RAMs effective against anti-ship missles.

Amizaur's MANPAD Seeker Fix-
We have included the fix that has been around for sometime, reducing the seeker cone
of MANPADs to 3 degrees.

Doctrines:

Included in this "One Stop" Distribution, are a compilation of doctrine files that improve
DW and provide compatibility for this mod, all done by Amizaur.

MissleSkim54E-- Doctrines are necessary for Two Stage SS-N-27 ASM.

SLMM-- Necessary for SLMM/Mobile Mine fix.

SubAvoid...-- Doctrines correct a bug in sub evasion routines that tells them to come too
shallow while evading, causing cavitation. Well tested.

Missle/MissleSam-- Corrects minor bugs in missle function. Well tested.


Subroc Attack.txt-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points.

Torpedo.txt- randomizes the left/right of Snake search pattern.

CIWSAttack.txt-ALPHA- Directs ships to fire a barrage of missles at "hard" targets, very close or very fast. It is your choice to include this, you can backup
your original CIWSAttack.txt doctrine and change the name of the file
included. I have played with this, and it definately makes ships launch more
SAM's at incoming vampires. I have yet to encounter any serious bugs with it.

That's it! I hope you enjoy! Please let me know if you find any errors, would like to
contribute to a future release, or have any suggestions or comments. The place is the
Subsim Mod Workshop!.

Happy Hunting.

LW

[Kapitan]

hmmm sounds good

[PeriscopeDepth]

I'm famous. :cool:

Could I send you a modded version of your database that I use and see if you could integrate it into your project? I lowered the passive SLs on some subs and messed with cable lengths. I haven't tested it thoroughly, but so far it seems OK. I know you said that it was too much of a pain to change those things every time around, but I'm doing it every time you release a new DB anywho...

PD

[LuftWolf]

Sure, sounds good! I'd love to take a look at anything you've got! :yep: :D

[LuftWolf]

Doh!

I keep forgetting to change the part in the readme about the TIW warning for missile transients! :damn: :damn: :damn:

When I do, I'll be sure to include a credit to Fish for confirming this. :up:

I'm sorry about that. :cry:

Note: I'm going to be offline all weekend. So enjoy your weekends, I'll probably catch up on Monday. :ping:

[Bellman]

:D TIW. Guess I pointed it out early days posts/pm/email.
But then the Prof has rightly the experience and tools to dignify any tests. :|\

[LuftWolf]

Well, before I give credits I make sure to look over the threads first to make sure I didn't miss anyone. :yep: ;)

As I recall, you brought it up that you didn't notice it and then Fish confirmed it during a LAN session, so you both get it... :up:

Thanks for reminding me... I have a very busy weekend ahead of me, I can work on the MP stuff that you, Kapitain, and me talked about on Monday... sorry work get's in the way! :stare: :nope: :x

Enjoy your weekend Bellman. :rock:

[TLAM Strike]

One thing I would like you guys to consider for a future update is the MAD detonators that I think SCX added to SC. I would really love to see those under the keel detonations brought back.

[Amizaur]

They are possible but will they do more damage than normally ? :hmm:
IIRC something changed in DW and under-keel detonations make same damage as normal... but I may be wrong, have to check it :hmm:

[TLAM Strike]

I did a little moding of my own and it looks like the Under the Keel damage has been totaly removed. :damn: :damn: :damn: :down:

[Amizaur]

I miss them too :damn: :down: Could someone ask for them in patch suggestions thread please ? :-)

In short, about Luftwolf's mod - I was quite suprised that missiles in the air became detectable by sonar, I was sure that passive sound noise level works in the water only... for example IR rather doesn't work in the water, because you can't detect submerged submarine by IR (at least deep submerged), thought that sound doesn't work in the air... were wrong...well, I broke my own rule to check everything by myself before writing this in public :oops: Never noticed them on the sonar because after launch it takes some time before they lower to <300ft and only then they were detectable, also never noticed that playable sub's sonars detects targets up to 300ft in the air :huh: (in the sensor dialog the altitudes are in feets rather, so it was 300ft not 300m. But detection curves are in meters, in objects dialog sub or weapon depths are are in meters too... what a mess :-)

Luftwolf's solution to lower the sonar's altitude limit to 10ft is exactly what I would do, I hope this fixed the problem ? Yes, this will cause the choppers and P-3 (both having assigned sound levels and even sound profiles) to stop being detectable on sonar, but we chave to chose: do we prefer helos detectable on sonar or missile launch transients, unfortunately we can't have both nder 1.01 game engine :-/. I think that helos detectable on sonar are less important, it's rather rare thing and I personally never seen helo or P-3 on sonar, for me missile launch transients are much more important so I think it's good thing to lower sonar detection level to 10ft.

About TIW messages - missile is not a torpedo so we will not get TIW message with this mod, sorry, it's game engine issue. Sonalysts were asked for this, so maybe in 1.02 or later we will get UnderwaterMissileLaunch messages or something similar, for now the only thing we can do in mod is what we did - make missiles to generate great noise at start so detectable by sonar. Works very nice, now missile launches are detectable FAR away (noise level 100) and the only shortcoming is absence of TIW messages - sorry, we can't do this by database or doctrine...

About AI Akulas firing now-wakehoming 65cm torps on enemy subs - Luftwolf, have you changed mission priorities for 65cm in DB editor ?

For universal 53cm or ADCAP they are:

ASW = 1, SUW = 2

and for anti-ship 53-65K

ASW = 3, SUW =1

little strange, I though that ASW means AntiSubmarineWarfare but maybe it's the opposite here ? Try to set for 65cm torp same values as for 53-65K torpedo. (edit: I see you did this in 1.02 mod - is it ok now ? does AI shoot it at subs now ?) If this doesn't help, maybe try to disable sub as a legal target (DBTargetFlags - surface only). Next modification to consider is lowering it's max depth to -10m (or similar value, equal to max useable depth of wake-homing guidance). Unfortunately I have contradictory info about this torp, one says that it's near-surface anti-ship weapon, can be launched at maybe 50m and run only shallow, other says that it can be launched very deep and run quite deep. Limiting it's depth to 10m in the game doesn't mean that you can't launch it deeper than that, only that you can't set run depth more than 10m. So you would never observe them missing targets because you forget to set it to run shallow (as I do frequently :oops: ), shalow run would be default. Drawback would be that you could not use it against submarines anymore, but with wake-homing weapon it was rather difficult (you had to guess right depth) and unrealistic anyway.

And, people, give us some feedback about how it works :) Are they working for you (detectable missile launches and new SS-N-27 ASMs) ? And if they work - do you like them ? I'm especially curious about my two-stage SS-N-27s :P Or maybe we should change or improve something ?

Cheers!

P.S. I'll take a look at SLAM-ERs when I find some time (finish home repair).

P.S.2 My Missile.txt doctrine fix worked only in about 50% of cases, best I achieved after many hours of work :-/. Strange thing, after 1000 tests of various combinations trying to find what t's the cause, I only can say that something is screwed in doctrine language with "VARIABLE = something" commands in Init phase of doctrines and something other is wrong with SetPitch command which sometimes doesn't work... So PreenablePitch assign have to be done outisde Init area, and some kind of math operation have to be added to SetPitch command argument to make it work, and even with that it sometimes works, sometimes not... for MANPADs works, for RAMs usually not...)
So, I looked at this missile.txt doctrine fix again while all-around testing of whole mod and found it not working in version I send to Luftwolf... worked just like stock one. Don't know the cause... Probably little change in doctrine text caused that, maybe even added comment, quite crazy thing... Wouldn't believe if didn't see that before - one absolutely insignificant change change working version to not working and vice versa with this bug... that's why I think that it's a bug in doctrine language interpreter. So Luftwolf, you can leave it like is or replace it with with stock Missile.txt (both works same), and remove it from ReadMe text as it is not functioning now. If I figure out what causes that or make a workaround I'll send you new one.
Nearly identical MissileSam.txt fix works great so no need for change here.

What else, one thing that needs correction is turn radius of missiles. Some very fast missiles have turn radius that would require over 100g acceleration. It can be left for SAMs and AAMs (which are quite maneuverable) but not for such mastodonts like AS-4, also SS-N-19, SS-N-12, SS-N-27ASM and SS-N-22 are very fast and can't make turn with 700m radius. For SS-N-27 ASM I set it to 2500m (and even this at 1900kts requires nearly 40g !), for other you can calculate needed turn radius from formula R = V^2 / G where R = turn radius in m, V = speed in m/s and G is acceleration the missile is supposed to be capable (in m/s^2 so value in g * 9.81). We can assume that Shipwreck and SS-N-22 are capable of 25g (at best), SS-N-12 and older missiles maybe 15g...
At present AS-4 Kitchens after acquiring a target can make "square corner" 700m turn and it looks... little "strange" at speed of 2200kts :-) :damn: Nearly 200g turn :down:

[TLAM Strike]

I miss them too :damn: :down: Could someone ask for them in patch suggestions thread please ? :-) I think I posted that there soon after DW came out.

[SquidB]

Nice work guys, an amazing mod. Quick question though.....is there any way of backing up my original files so that i can swap back and forth for MP purposes?

Thanks in advance.

[Amizaur]

Of course, just backup original Database and Doctrine folders.
If you restore them, the mod will be gone :-)
For example I have Database.org and Doctrine.org backup folders created for this purpose.

[SquidB]

Thats great, thanks for the info and thanks even more for the work you guys have put into this :up:

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, great stuff! :rock:

About the missle turning radius, I am worried that the turning radius variable has a "special" effect on the physics algorithm and if they are made too tight for fast targets, may produce some funny results (airdropped/launched torpedos seems to prone to this, with the porpoising behavior), so we'll have to look at it very carefully.

Depending on your thoughts and schedule, maybe we can aim for another version soon. I will get together a list of things we perhaps need to add/change and send you an email soon.

You guys rock, thanks for trying the DB! :rock: :arrgh!:

Cheers,
David

PS About the 65-76, I have changed the mission priorities ASW-3 ASUW-1 and left the subs and surface flags, so it resembles the 53cm wakehomer. AI Akulas will fire 65cm torpedos at range. This may not be such a bad thing, as it has the range of the ADCAP so commanders do have an emergency standoff ASW torpedo, and a long range launch may get a target to run like heck for no reason, meaning the attacker can follow up with subrocs, etc. Depending on the feel of the community, we can disable this, or keep it. My feeling is, if the torpedo could reasonably used in this way in reallife (deep diving torpedo, can pick up wakes of fleeing submerged targets if the depth is close and target is moving fast enough) I'm in favor of keeping it, as it's one more thing that an opposing commander has to worry about, and in reallife, I'm sure a commander would launch a weapon with a chance of hitting at range if no other weapons carried by the sub would work. (Launch the 65-76! No capitan, it says in the DB that it's only for use against ships! Damn the DB flags... hehe) :up:

I actually killed a Kilo at a huge range by mistake when I launched a spread of them against a convoy and it got caught up in it near the surface. :|\

[Amizaur]

Aha, I think I'm close to catching the bug by the balls ;), now I have few versions of most simple doctrine like this:

var A

If Init then {
A = 45
} ELSE {
Debugout "A"
Debugvalueout A
SetPitch A
} ENDIF

which works or not with a change of single line, or even THE SAME doctrine that sometimes works, and another time fails, and another time works 50% :-/. Tested on RAM missiles (don't know if this matters, same problem was with MANPADs but was easily fixed).

For example the first doctrine usually fails (A = 0.0000), but this one:

var A
var B

If Init then {
A = 15
B = 45
} ELSE {
Debugout "A, B:"
Debugvalueout A
Debugvalueout B
SetPitch B
} ENDIF

usually works. What changed ? Added second variable B and that's all...

And in some cases even this doesn't work:

var A

If Init then {
A = 15
} ELSE {
Debugout "A"
Debugvalueout A
SetPitch 45
} ENDIF

debugout gives 0.0000 and missile fly in level and doesn't pull up - after direct command setpitch 45 !!!
If this isn't bug then I don't know what's up :-/

I'll ask you Luftwolf to try this, maybe it's on my computer only, but if you find them not working (or sometimes working, sometimes not) then I'll send it to patch suggestions & Battlefront's technical problems forums...

[Kapitan]

i fire 65cm at submarines most of the time in fact the 65cm is the weapon of choice for me and i only fire one at a time id say 75% of my tonnage that has been sunk the ship was hit by a 65cm some were hit by SS-N-27 and some hit by 53-65K

[Bellman]

:) Thanks guys - a great mod.

Feedback:-
1. Transients now well defined and observable at a greter range.
2. Choice between heli spotting and this feature clearly favours transients.
3. Not too happy about the 65s - as a sub v sub diver I miss the 27 nm range and loss of wire guidance.
Sometimes the Ak counterfires a snapshot to the SW, at long range, and this torp is initialy a lurker but
can come in usefull when the AKs missile activity or range closing permits a 'final' TMA solution and a wired kill. ;)

Maybe this is a minority opinion as the wake-homing feature is ideal within the DW setting.
But for me the SCX UGST type of variable useage would have been ideal or, if not, the ability
to choose between two types of 65, namely conventional or wakehoming.

But, in the round, a nice piece of work. :|\

[Adm. Ahab]

Is this mod compatible with finitniss (sorry for spelling) sonar mod? Or do they overwrite the same files?

Thanks

[PeriscopeDepth]

Is this mod compatible with finitniss (sorry for spelling) sonar mod? Or do they overwrite the same files?

Thanks

No, they overwrite the same files. You can have one or the other, not both.

[Adm. Ahab]

Is this mod compatible with finitniss (sorry for spelling) sonar mod? Or do they overwrite the same files?

Thanks

No, they overwrite the same files. You can have one or the other, not both.

Thats what I thought....

Thanks

[Neutrino 123]

I'm not sure if the following is only for this mod, but I've noticed that when plotting the waypoints for LAMs, the missile seems to hit the ground slightly after the finalwaypoint. This usually isn't a big problem with large targets, but if you want to take out a SAM site, it could have a signifigant impact (compounded by the fact that the missile is usually no longer pointed directly at the target if you plot the final waypoint in front of the target and then move the sub). I've noticed this effect with both the TLAM and the SS-N-27 LAM.

[Amizaur]

I've noticed this when launching TLAMs in SC for the first time, and then in DW too :) I think they always flew little too far, even back in Sub Command. This could be compensated though within doctrine I think. Anybody else cares that they are overshooting ? :)

[TLAM Strike]

There seems to be a problem with the SS-N-27 ASM. On AI subs (I saw this with one of the PLAN Kilo Imps) they will enable the missile at the exact location of the ship resulting in the Supersonic Kill Stage to pass over head.

Could the AI be given a doctrine that forces them to remove 1 mile from its RTE on the SS-N-27?

[LuftWolf]

TLAM, Amizaur has done more testing than me on this, but he says that they enable them generally correctly for short and medium ranges.

It is possible that your AI kilo just had a bad solution on the ship or he fired it under its minimum range.

I will do some testing today/morrow.

[Amizaur]

TLAM Strike - I'll check this again, just yesterday I noticed possible bug in last version of SS-N-27 doctrine. So I'll take a look at activation point when fired by AI too. I tested them extensively launching from NAV screen to see where will computer place enable point, also I calculated where this point should be and all worked, but of course there still can be errors so thanks for info !

[LuftWolf]

Ok based on your feedback and the further brainstorming of Amizaur and me, here are the things that are being considered for v1.03. First, thanks a lot for using the mod! :know: :up:

Fixes-

missile.txt doctrine-Amizaur has determined that neither his nor the stock version function correctly. I believe he is working on fixing it.

ss-n-27 doctrines-Amizaur has recently posted that he may have found a bug, so he may fix this and/or expand the missile's function.

readme-I will correct the section in the readme regarding missile launches and TIW warnings, with credits going to Bellman for pointing it out and Fish for confirming it over a LAN.

Additional Mods/Changes

UGST- Will be given 27nm range. :up: Credits to Bellman for bullying me into it. You bad bad man. :P :rotfl: :arrgh!:

ADCAP- Speed will be increased to 60kts.

Wakehoming torpedos- I am considering removing all ASW capabilites from all wakehoming torpedos (and setting the max depth of the 65-76 to -10m). I am open to suggestions about this, as I can't find out how wakehomers actually work. Amizaur believes it is oxygen bubbles left in the water by surface ships, meaning it wouldn't work against subs, and I am inclined to believe him as usual. :) I have started a poll so you guys can give an answer.

Torpedo Seekers- Will be adjusted to realistic levels, paying attention to reduce the cone of subrocs and older torpedos.

Submarine Sound Levels- Periscope Depth has sent me a modded db with passive noise levels changed for various subs. I have wanted to change these as well, so in consultation with Amizaur, the three of us will play around with changing them to reflect reasonably realistic levels, whatever that means (I'm not really sure how quiet anything is, to be honest, so I'll have to trust you guys).

On that tip, if any of you have specific requests about changing certain subs to certain levels or anything else you'd like to see in the mod in general, let us know here in this thread. :yep: :up:

[Mau]

What about the wind speed and direction.

Talked with Amizaur couple weeks ago, and the countermeasures with the FFG are showing that the wind is not modeled properly (it is actually going in the opposite direction and the speed is not very effective to move the chaffs/flares away from the ship

[LuftWolf]

Those are environmental issues and, as far as I know, out of the range of our ability to modify, but not SCS.

We can, however, increase the effectiveness of Chaff and Flare in the database. :up:

Thanks for bringing this up, Mau. ;)

[OlegM]

UGST- Will be given 27nm range. :up: Credits to Bellman for bullying me into it. You bad bad man. :P :rotfl: :arrgh!:

...snip...

I have started a poll so you guys can give an answer.

...snip...

(I'm not really sure how quiet anything is, to be honest, so I'll have to trust you guys).

...snip...

if any of you have specific requests about changing certain subs to certain levels or anything else you'd like to see in the mod in general, let us know here in this thread. :yep: :up:

I see the quoted parts above as very bad news. Will this be "poll-based" mod or "whoever bullies the most on the board will get his way" mod?

Since DWX is taking aeons to materialize, I downloaded your mod and like it so far. I must admit I installed only the doctrine modifications, not the database, exactly for the reason outlined above - I think database changes are too much influenced by whatever is posted on the board, not on any verifiable and realistic data. Prove me wrong :|\

Oleg

[LuftWolf]

Thank your for taking writing that. I like that kind of feedback. :know:

I'm looking for information from the community about what they believe to be the truth and what they would like to see in the mod because they are going to be the ones using it. I am specifically not just changing stuff and asking you guys to trust me, because I really don't know.

What I do know, is how to do research. Without getting into it, you can either believe me or not. When I read something on the forum, I can pretty much figure out what's good and what's not, I think. Frankly, I trust Amizaur's opinion, Bill's, Fish, Takeda, TLAM, OneShot, and a few others. So if they say something, forgive me if I take it as true.

[LuftWolf]

Ok, in terms of decoys I have done the following so far:

Launched anti-torpedo CM's active and passive have had their effectiveness reduced to 30% in terms of attracting torpedos.

Anti-missle countermeasures chaff and flare have had their effectiveness increased to 40%.

You can let me know how to tweak this as you think. :yep: :sunny:

I've also changed the db flags and mission priorites for wakehomers so the AI won't them at properly identified subs. You can still fire them to run deep if you want, to attack subs, either with a snapshot or by reclassifying the target as surface.

I've also implimented all the dicussed parameter stuff with the ADCAP (60 kts) and the UGST (27nm).

[Amizaur]

I see that my SS-N-27 doctrine indeed do not work correctly now, enable point is bugged, don't know when this happened :hmm: I'll try to find the error tomorrow.
Tested that max effective depth of 53-65K wakehomer is 15m. At 15m they work fine, at 16m they don't detect wakes of surface ships anymore.
So if you were limiting 65cm run depth you could limit it to 15m not 10 :-)

Just tested small modification of torpedo doctrine that prevents AI units from sinking friendly surface units with ASW torpedos. If air-dropped torp is detected, ceiling is set to 150ft inside of doctrine. Surface units are safe.
Also tommorrow I'll test little more complicated modification that prevents human player from surfacing to avoid being sunk by AI ASW torpedos - he may think that they don't get him on the surface. If an AI air-dropped torpedo detects Submarine the ceiling is reset to -2ft to allow the atttack. Surface ships would be still safe, but surfaced submarines not :-). This mod will affect only AI launched torpedos, player launched would be unaffected. If it's human-player weapon, the -150ft setting would be overwritten by ceiling value set by player.

[TLAM Strike]

I see that my SS-N-27 doctrine indeed do not work correctly now, enable point is bugged, don't know when this happened :hmm: I'll try to find the error tomorrow.
Tested that max effective depth of 53-65K wakehomer is 15m. At 15m they work fine, at 16m they don't detect wakes of surface ships anymore.
So if you were limiting 65cm run depth you could limit it to 15m not 10 :-) I have the current release of this mod and I scored a Kill on a Spruance class DD with a 53-65K(Export) with its depth set for 60m. :-?

Or are you using the verson that has yet to be released?

[Bellman]

Amizaur Aug 24th wrote :-

.....to use my torpedo doctrines with speed/depth/range depending on each other and we will have realistic speed/range combinations

Also:-

.....we could give to ADCAP max speed of 60kts - it's credited to be capable of even more (some sources say 11-14nm at 65kts) but 60kts for sure :-).

Luftwolf Aug 25th wrote :-

ADCAP- Speed will be increased to 60kts..

So recapping and not bullying ( :lol: :roll: )
The Adcap will have a max. speed of 60 kts., but realisticaly this top speed will result in a lower range of ? 15 nm, ? Or what ?

Wakehomeing - 65s effective only against surfaced subs or near surface cavitators ?

Are the new DW torp wider arc snake search patterns more at fault than the cone arcs ?

[Bellman]

..........typo :-

' subs and near surface cavitators'

[PeriscopeDepth]

Is there a way to make the effectiveness of the CMs depend on the type of torp? I don't think there is, but just making sure...

[LuftWolf]

Unfortunately no, P-Diddy. :-j

We can however change the seeker cones of the torpedos, so the SET-65 doesn't have the same seeker parameters as the ADCAP. :88)

[LuftWolf]

Bellman,

Unfortunately, any variable range vs speed calculations have to be added at the doctrine level (by modders anyway, I'm sure SCS could do with a single algorithm in the .exe ) *for each individual torpedo separately* meaning that's a lot of coding for each weapon times 20 or more torpedos, etc.

The best we can do without going to that lenght, is be fair about the selection of speeds and ranges.

Giving the ADCAP near max range near its top speed and giving the UGST mininum range accurate with its range at top speed, as you and others including Fish pointed out, is not fair. So, we have given the UGST max range at max speed (27nm@50kts) and ADCAP near max range at near max speed (27nm@60kts). Amizaur suggested it and I believe that is both fair and playable. :up:

I hope you guys agree. :yep: :know:

[Amizaur]

I have demo torpedo doctrine, it's public from few months, and the good news is that I designed it from the start to be as easily adaptable for other torpedos as possible :P . To make it reflect parameters of other torpedos, all you have to do is set 5 or 6 parameters - two speeds (for ADCAP 40 and 55kts), ranges at that speed (for ADCAP you would set 21 and 27nm) and a parameter of speed reduction with depth (speed at max depth). The rest (speed/range curve and speed reduction with depth) would be calculated by doctrine :-).
So basically you take my ADCAP doctrine, instert into it UGST parameters (50kts, 35kts, 27nm, 16nm, speed reduction (to be determined yet) and you have ready to use UGST doctrine :-).

P.S. There are few more parameters to set, I forgot about length of guidance wire and torpedo max (fail) depth, but all this takes maybe 5 minutes to make one complete torpedo doctrine. I have not done this myself yet because I planned to further expand this doctrine and add new features, but it's fully functional and very well tested (much better than SS-N-27 stuff) right now.

[LuftWolf]

I am going to set the MAD/SAD sensors to their correct detection depths for v1.03 as well.

What should their proper depths be? :ping:

[TLAM Strike]

I don't think this can be fixed. Check my post in the other thread.

[Adm. Ahab]

Bellman,

Unfortunately, any variable range vs speed calculations have to be added at the doctrine level (by modders anyway, I'm sure SCS could do with a single algorithm in the .exe ) *for each individual torpedo separately* meaning that's a lot of coding for each weapon times 20 or more torpedos, etc.

The best we can do without going to that lenght, is be fair about the selection of speeds and ranges.

Giving the ADCAP near max range near its top speed and giving the UGST mininum range accurate with its range at top speed, as you and others including Fish pointed out, is not fair. So, we have given the UGST max range at max speed (27nm@50kts) and ADCAP near max range at near max speed (27nm@60kts). Amizaur suggested it and I believe that is both fair and playable. :up:

I hope you guys agree. :yep: :know:


Just a thought. The US subs don't have SUBROC's. Wouldn't that off set any unfairness? I say go for realism.
$.02

[LuftWolf]

TLAM, the detection max-mins in the database for each sensor are hardcaps regardless of geometry: if I set the detection max depth at a certain point, the game engine is hard coded not to display those targets to a certain sensor.

Could everyone live with the ranges of 1000ft MAD and 500 ft, SAD?

[LuftWolf]

Ahab,

Thanks for your feedback.

That was my thinking as well (they don't have shikvals either) but the decline in sensor performance is enough to compensate, given that the UGST and ADCAP performances should be judged by the same standards, I believe.

[TLAM Strike]

So if you do set it to a 1000 feet you will still detect contacts more than a 1000 feet off your beam?

BTW SAD has a range of 750 according to the manual.

Before you do anything maybe a former P-3 or Seahawk flyer could comment? I know there are a few around here...

[LuftWolf]

The values I am changing are not relative values. They instruct the game to only display contacts to the sensor within a certain range of absolute depths.

It is the same fix I applied to the persistent missile transients, lowering the detection altitudes of sonars to 10ft, just in reverse, raising the maximum detection depth of the mad and sad to 1000/750.

The overall geometry is unaffected by the change.

[LuftWolf]

The biggest problem, is that AI platforms only have the MAD sensor, and that is tuned to 0, 1000, meaning your tactic wouldn't work.

So, I have decided to change it to a SAD sensor in effect, with depth range -50 to -750 feet, to avoid AI aircraft dropping torpedos on overflown ships and to make it possible to avoid them. I am not sure if a crew would actually drop on a MAD only contact with no other confirmation, but I suppose its better this way to be sure.

You guys can let me know if it would be better to have all AI MAD sensors behave like SAD sensors. :up:

[Amizaur]

What is difference between MAD and SAD ? :-)

[TLAM Strike]

What is difference between MAD and SAD ? :-) MAD detects any metallic object (Except perhaps subs made of titanium like the Alfa) SAD detects only submarines.

[PeriscopeDepth]

I think even if you limit the AI to MAD they will still know it's a submarine and drop anywho.

[Bellman]

LuftWolf and Amizaur.

The Adcap and UGST range/speeds seem a good compromise for playability, especialy in MP. :up:

Now with powerfull 65 wakehomers and good missile transients we have a superior mod. which will make the sim
much more playable and enjoyable. :rock:

Thanks guys - magic. ......... :yep: :D :|\

Bellman.

[LuftWolf]

Upon further review, I have decided to set all SAD sensors and the AI MAD sensor to -750/-30ft, to prevent subs from avoiding detection at periscope depth. :up:

[SquidB]

Guys this mods amazing. My favourite feature is the missile launch transients. Plus the fact that my Akula now doesnt carry imaginary weapons.

(do we still get the TIW report for missiles or has that been shelved due to the persistant sonar problem?)

Anyway, I think you guys need to be clear about the objectives of all this.

I am all for a realisim mod, I think that as far as MP play balance goes SCS had its pretty bang on.

If i want a fair one on one fight ill play DW vanilla. If I want a realistic reflection of what a russian sub can or cant do then ill go with an informed mod such as this. Ill adapt my tactics accordingly, and sometimes it can be intresting in the underdog in a combat sim.

Well keep up the good work, dont worry about play balance, just try to make it as real as you can.

[Bellman]

It would be nice to have some reports back from players using the mod in MP.

I think its too early to draw any conclusions about play balance and to be fair to the modders they need feedback
to make any adjustments /trims/corrections.

PS. There are no TIWs (now/ever) in the mod.

[Mau]

Are we saying that there are no missile inbound indication anymore?
That would not be good?

[Bellman]

In the LuftAmiz mod we have much improved missile launch transients.

SquidB wrote:-

(do we still get the TIW report for missiles or has that been shelved due to the persistant sonar problem?)


We have no TIWs for missile launches in this mod.

[NastyHyena]

In the LuftAmiz mod we have much improved missile launch transients.

SquidB wrote:-

(do we still get the TIW report for missiles or has that been shelved due to the persistant sonar problem?)


We have no TIWs for missile launches in this mod.

I think it's the way the game engine works. Anything thats a torpedo causes a TIW. ADCAPS, Skvalls, UUVs, anything that swims. I dont think it's possible to have a missile TIW, unless someone were to make a 'canister stage' that was considered a torpedo.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, would that be hard to do? We already have the launcher stange that drops the torpedo. How about a 'launch canister' that launches the missile when it hits the surface? If it's considered a torp, it should trigger a TIW.

[LuftWolf]

The game is hardcoded to give TIW messages for weapons that are listed in the DB as "torpedo" weapons.

There is no underwater missile launch warning. SCS would have to hardcode that in the game.

Thank you for your feedback and suggestions! :up: :know:


Anyway, I think you guys need to be clear about the objectives of all this.


From the readme:

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW gameplay that
most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without
introducing any new ones.

[SquidB]

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW gameplay that
most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without
introducing any new ones.

I should of spotted that one.... :up:

[LuftWolf]

Ok we have some things that we have to work out.

I would expect the next version within the next two weeks.

The changes involve ironing out some things with missile behavior and properly moddling the torpedos and seekers, which is something of an interesting task. :hmm:

In the mean time, I have listed all of the other db-value changes to CM's, SAD/MAD, and ADCAP/UGST in the thread, so you guys can make those changes yourself in the meantime if you want with the db editors. :up: You could PM me if you want me to email you the "unofficial" v1.025 database. ;) :lol:

Edit: I suppose I could post the changes with an updated readme, but I hate to bother Bill with "minor stuff"... if you guys think its important enough to distribute a new version, then you can tell me. :ping:

Additional Edit: I think we can change the submarine passive sound levels too.

[Mau]

LuftWolf coontinue your good work!!

As per the effectiveness of the Chaff and Flares (I think you put now 40%), I don't know what was the original percentage, but I would not go above 25%
It is not because I want to be ``Pickie``, It is just based on some survey, tests, reference on internet.........etc.....

Let us know the original number in the Vanilla version

Thanks
Mau

[LuftWolf]

Thanks! :)

In the stock DB, the effectiveness is 20%. I have heard that the modeling of their drift is less than conducive to fooling missiles, so even times when they have properly spoofed them, the missile still may hit or reacquire.

Does anyone else know about this?

[LuftWolf]

Ok, so I can keep track. :know:

Here are the implemented changes for v1.03:

Multipurpose Torpedo Balancing:

ADCAP--Given 60kts max speed.

UGST--Given 27nm max range.

Wakehoming Torpedos--DB flags and mission priorities changed to limit use to identified surface ships (to prevent AI from firing vs. submerged contacts, you may still set the depth how you like and the torpedo will follow all wakes to target, regardless of type).

Launched Anti-Torpedo CM's--effectiveness has been changed to 33% (up from 30%, I like the neat 1/3).

Launched Anti-Missile CM's--effectivness changed to 25% (credit Mau, 25% indeed seems like a generally acceptable value and you are the one who brought up the wind thing earlier! I had thrown the 40% out as a starting point anyway...).

MAD/SAD

MAD--sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -1000.ft

SAD--sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -750ft. Minimum detection depth has been increased from -50ft to -30ft. Note: the only difference between a MAD and SAD detection in the game is the depth at which they are detected, so if I set the depths the same, the sensors would be exactly the same sensor, as the platforms only vary in MAD characteristic, and have no separate SAD characteristic).

AI MAD--AI platforms do not have a separate MAD/SAD detector. Previously, they had been set to detect from 0 to -3000ft. In order to permit realistic evasion tactics from MAD equipped AI air platforms, I have set the AI MAD sensor to have SAD chacteristics (have fun under those funky sounding cargo ships!).

To be resolved:

--The Readme will be changed to make it clear that missile transients will not produce a TIW warning (credits to Bellman and Fish).

--The two stage ss-n-27 needs to be looked at closely and may be temporarily removed until set to work completely as planned.

--Minor changes to missile doctrine to improve launch characteristics.

--Variable Torpedo seeker modeling by quality and performance.

--Submarine passive sound levels may be adjusted to more realistic levels.

I am waiting to hear back from Amizaur about a few things. We may release what we've got now as I think it is very solid and we are confident it is virtually new-bug free, except for the possible doctrine issues with two stage ss-n-27. :rock:

[Bellman]

:up: Looking great.

Can I clarify the position now with the new wakehomeing set-up ?

Luftwolf wrote :-
(.........you may still set the depth how you like and the torpedo will follow all wakes to target, regardless of type).

'Wakes' are defined as near surface disturbance caused by surface ships or surfaced subs.
Will these guys follow and prosecute subsurface cavitating subs ? If the latter is true then the depth
setting will be critical - but how critical ? What are the vertical limits ? :hmm:

[SquidB]

That sounds good, cant wait for the release. :rock:

[LuftWolf]

I have emailed the v1.03 distribution to Bill, it should be posted to subguru soon! :up:

Here is the v1.03 addition to the readme, mostly from the above post. :know:

v1.03


Multipurpose Torpedo Balancing: (Thank you Bellman for raising this issue.)

ADCAP--Given 60kts max speed.

UGST--Given 27nm max range.

Wakehoming Torpedos--DB flags and mission priorities changed to limit use to identified
surface ships (to prevent AI from firing vs. submerged contacts, you may still set
the depth how you like and the torpedo will follow all wakes to target, regardless
of type).

Launched Anti-Torpedo CM's--effectiveness has been lowered from 50% to 33%.

Launched Anti-Missile CM's--effectivness raised from 20% to 25%.(Thank you Mau for
suggesting this.)

Missile Launch Warning--I have changed the readme to make it clear there is no TIW warning or any other kind of audio warning for underwater missile launches. (Thank you Bellman for finding this and Fish for confirming it over a LAN.)

MAD/SAD

MAD--sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -1000.ft

SAD--sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -750ft. Note: the only
difference between a MAD and SAD detection in the game is the depth at which they are
detected, so if I set the depths the same, the sensors would be exactly the same sensor,
as the platforms only vary in MAD characteristic, and have no separate SAD
characteristic).

AI MAD--AI platforms do not have a separate MAD/SAD detector. Previously, they had been set
to detect from 0 to -3000ft. In order to permit realistic evasion tactics from MAD equipped AI air platforms, I have set the AI MAD sensor to have SAD chacteristics (have fun under those funky sounding cargo ships!)

SS-N-27--Two stage BETA mod has been temporarily removed for refinement. The original 27 ASW and 54E have been restored in the DB and I have included the stock missileskim54E.txt
doctrine file, so that when you reinstall the mod, you don't have to change anything
else, it will just work as it should. You can delete or keep the other doctrine files
associated with the BETA mod, they are completely dissabled now.

Enjoy!

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

Bellman,

Regarding the wakehoming issue.

SCS has moddeled object interaction with the environment in such a way that all things leave a wake that is independant of surface cavitation. All wakehoming torpedos home in on that environmental disturbance, not a return from the target itself, so the torpedo seeker itself ignors db flags. However, the AI will not fire this weapon at subs as I've set the flags (the purpose of changing it), nor can the user from the Nav map or firecontrol, unless you reclassify the target or use a snapshot. The fact that you can still set the run depth of the torpedos, combined with the fact that subs do leave a wake at depth, means you can try to use this as an ASW weapon, but the in-game feel would be the same as in real-life, using the weapon in a way it wasn't intended.

If you want to use the wakehomers against subs, I recommend it specifically for littoral contexts and at short-medium range mixed with active/passive homing torpedos. :up:

[Bellman]

:) Thanks LW - I was just seeking claryfication which you have kindly supplied. :up:

For SP., given the AI limits with the 65, realism dictates strict use only for wakehoming v surfs. :yep:

I am not able to MP at pres., but knowing the crafty opposition out there, it is as well to be prapared for
'interesting combos.' ............:o ............. :hmm:.............. :|\

[LuftWolf]

I have had to change the SAD min back to -50ft, as the reduced level meant that ships with deep drafts displayed on the sensor. :doh: :arrgh!:

The corrected version has been sent to Bill. :up:

[Adm. Ahab]

Additional Edit: I think we can change the submarine passive sound levels too.


Was this included in the release? I didn't see anything listed in the readme.

[Bill Nichols]

Version 1.03 has just been posted to my site. Enjoy!

[Bellman]

:up: Thanks Bill.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks Bill! :up: :sunny:

[LuftWolf]

Adm. Ahab,

No we have not changed the passive sound levels for subs in this version.

Next version, which will probably come out in a few weeks, maybe not until after the next patch, depending on whether there is news or not, will have some more difficult modeling in it such as torpedo seeker cones, more advanced missile doctrine, a restored and correctly functioning SS-N-27 ASM, the submarine sound level fix, and a few more things.

We have put out this stable version with the most well-tested and popular fixes so we can take the time to do these more complex tasks in a thorough way, and fully test everything before we release it to you. :up:

[Adm. Ahab]

Adm. Ahab,

No we have not changed the passive sound levels for subs in this version.

Next version, which will probably come out in a few weeks, maybe not until after the next patch, depending on whether there is news or not, will have some more difficult modeling in it such as torpedo seeker cones, more advanced missile doctrine, a restored and correctly functioning SS-N-27 ASM, the submarine sound level fix, and a few more things.

We have put out this stable version with the most well-tested and popular fixes so we can take the time to do these more complex tasks in a thorough way, and fully test everything before we release it to you. :up:

Thank you.

[LuftWolf]

Yes, the Kilo sonar issue can be addressed in the database.

The database workaround:

Start out by tuning the hull array to suitable detection ranges, so that it picks up a narrow band contact at a desirable range. Since it's broadband works fine relative to it's narrow band, it can be left alone after this point. Now on to the problematic cylindrical array.

In real terms, the problem with the array is that its broadband is much more sensitive than it's narrow band. If it displayed narrowband contacts before the broadband, even if it was wildly far reaching, then it's sensitivity could simply be lowered and everything would be fine. However, this is not the case.

So, the cylindrical BB has to take a cue from the Hull sonar. That is to say, set the maximum detection range of the cylindrical array at a range where it is long after low narrow band detection by the hull array. This would make it not so useful, but then again, I think that is what we are going for.

What do you guys want?

[LuftWolf]

It seems the hull sonar shares the same BB properties as the cylindrical after all.

Hmm, this makes any database solution amount to making the Kilo very deaf, but the same problem would exist.

Personally I think it is better to wait for an official fix, but I will try a couple of things.

Edit: Yes, I think this falls under the catagory of messing around with stuff for me rather than fixing it. Unless Amizaur can think of something, then I think this will have to wait for an official fix. :damn: :doh:

Oh well, DW rocks! :rock: :rock: :arrgh!:

[TLAM Strike]

Yea you can't fix the kilo bug by altering the DB its a bug in the code.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks TLAM.

A few hours ago I should have guessed that... :damn: :damn: :damn:

I want some pizza. :88) :up:

[Bellman]

Tested the 53s under varying conditions and very pleased to report they perform as it 'says on the tin'

Max range depth 150m pre-enabled 25 - 30 nm (Act. 50 knts - Pass. 30 knts)
Max range depth 150m enabled at 20 nm - 26 nm. appx.
Max range depth 300m enabled at 20 nm - 24/5 nm appx.


Nice work - :up:

Now looking very hard at the 65s ;)

[Amizaur]

How could the range vary ??? I spend tens of hours on torpedo tests while developing my torpedo mods and range always was independant from speed and depth. Could this be measurement error ? The only possible explanation for me is the snake pattern...?
Normally in DW preenabled torps would ALWAYS run the same distance, regardles of speed and depth. Enabled torps will travel same true distance (launch two two torps at the same time, one enabled and second preenabled - eventually they will shutdown simultaneously) but the range would be smaller of course... but it's same effect for all in-game torpedos, for both UGST and ADCAP.

[Bellman]

Yes the range was shorter for the torps enabled at 20 nm compared with those that just ran to
20 nm enabled and were immediately prenabled. The snakers all ran less distance.

That seemed pretty real - but if yoiu think I experienced a 'miracle' - try the same test. ***

I got 30 nm from a passive running at 150 m depth and at 30 knts !!!

The range at different depths was so small as to be hardly worth mentioning. ( 1 nm ? - measurement .?)

PS.*** Modus. I marked Nav with launch point and range circles at 20 nm, 25 nm, 27 nm and 30 nm.
The Ak was at 8 knts and the torp launch proceedure only took a minute. The torps were all set to
enable at the same range and monitered so that, where appropriate to the test they
could be prenabled. The self shut-down points for the torps were logged and measured. The game was
accelerated during torp runs but this was a constant factor in all experiments so could not account for differentials.
I ran three separate torp launch tests each of four 53s.

I was glad to find what I did. :up:

[mike_espo]

I have not installed this yet: but I was wondering: with Counter measures working 33% of the time, won't this make things too difficult? I mean, in reality crafty sub skippers use the layer and varying salinity conditions to out fox torpedoes and remain undetected. We have no such thing in DW.

Layer does not help at all in evading torpedoes.

So, countermeasures are the only way to stay alive when detected and attacked.

Am I missing something? :hmm:

thanks

[LuftWolf]

Mike, thanks for your interest in our mod! :up:

You make a good point. Ultimately, any value for CM effectiveness in the absense of good data is a judgement call based on gameplay and "what feels right."

I think everyone pretty much agreed that torps explode on CMs too often (50% detonation of 50% successful torpedo attractions, so 1/4 of the times a CM was used against a torpedo it destroyed it, too often!) and that generally evading torps was too easy as a result.

Now that the effectiveness of the CM's in general has been lowered, torpedo detonation on CM's will only happen around %16.5 of the times a CM is used against a torpedo. Also, since most subs have only two CM launchers, with CM's being only 33% effective, you now have a significantly lower chance of getting lucky and evading a close shot on a detonation, but much better chances at range, a probability curve based on number of CM's launched that I personally feel much more comfortable with now. Also, the enhanced CM system from the SW is a bit more of a gameplay factor, IMHO. :rock:

[mike_espo]

Hey Luft! Thanks for the response. Hopefully next patch will correct Layer effects. 33% sounds about right.. :up:

Anyway, another thing: What freq should I use to change ohio to make more quiet? Im not sure what the values in DB editor mean... :oops:

thanks

[Amizaur]

Ehm, I think 50% torpedos was attracted by CMs and from those 100% detonated on them. So it's rather 50% * 100%

100% detonation of 50% successful torpedo attractions, so 1/2 of the times a CM was used against a torpedo it destroyed

in theory, because I did not statistic research on this phenomena ;), but I didn't ever see a torpedo that hit a CM and not detonated :)

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur,

Ah, I had a question about the CM torpedo detonation information. However, I had taken it as a relatively useful bootstrap, as I have seen plenty of torpedos sail past CM's at different depths, so just because a torp goes through the bearing of a CM doesn't mean a detonation, especially for subrocs, airdrops torps, and close shots.

In any case, I think the basic principle is the same, just disregard the exact percentages.

Thanks for the correction. :sunny:

[LuftWolf]

Mike,

The DB value effects how loud or quiet an object is at given speeds is the Passive Sonar/Sound Level, or Passive SL.

It is listed 2/3 of the way down the list of object parameters on the right side of the screen. :up: :arrgh!:

[Amizaur]

Amizaur,

Ah, I had a question about the CM torpedo detonation information. However, I had taken it as a relatively useful bootstrap, as I have seen plenty of torpedos sail past CM's at different depths, so just because a torp goes through the bearing of a CM doesn't mean a detonation, especially for subrocs, airdrops torps, and close shots.


and I guess they would not detonate on submarine target if they run past it at different depth :) so I don't count such event as hit personally

[LuftWolf]

I don't either... I guess the 50% detonation value that has been reported is a misinterpretation of the 50% spoofing chance. :hmm:

[LuftWolf]

*Sounds of a chair hitting the floor*

ARE YOU KIDDING???

There are two types of AI sub passive sonar in the game HF passive and LF passive.

A sub will only have one of these two types.

Ok, are you ready? Unless I am reading this wrong, each array only has a 150 degree detection cone, mean ALL AI SUBS ARE BLIND for 210 degrees!?

In addition to that, both sensors are essentially useless anyway.

This is very problematic, even for me. :nope:

I think this counts as a high priority fix. :doh:

Can someone please tell me I'm wrong about this? :huh: :yep:

Edit: In looking at this more closely, it seems each array has the same geometry as the Sphere arrays on human controlled subs, that is to say, with a detection arc of 210 degrees and a dead zone of 150 degrees.

I think the best fix would be to give AI subs with towed arrays both a forward and rear facing sensor and ones without just a forward facing sensor, but I'm not sure if the AI could handle two sonars, plus the AI couldn't be made to make course changes required to actively employ the arrays. The most straightforward fix is to give AI subs with TA's a 360 degree sensor with more or less TA like properties, slightly reduced, assuming that this takes into account proper AI array behavior, and to give AI subs without towed arrays a sphere-like array that works for something as opposed to now where they are very very deaf.

This last fix has the advantage from a modeling standpoint of being minimally invasive, I would just make the HF passive sonar more effective by increasing its range, so it's more or less like the Kilo array (as these are typically on older subs anyway) and to change the LF passive sonar to more or less Pelamda TA properties, minus the restriction on cone. This may give the AI subs an advantage, but then again, we want that. :yep: :rock:

[LuftWolf]

Yes, I am feeling very good about a quick fix for this. It involves changing simple values for those of you who want to fix it now, and not wait for the full modelling treatment that I am now determined to give it for our next version. :yep: :up:

I am going to change the "good" AI sonar to have geometry identical to the FFG towed array (the only other passive array modelled without a deadzone, I am using this model to avoid the potential bugs that could come from doing it another way) with sensitivity similiar to Pelamda and max speed near the TB-23 (I have to play with this to see what seems right, since this also effects ships for the time being).

As for the "bad" sonar, for subs without a TA, the geometry will stay the same, but I will make it essentially equal in sensitivity to the Kilo cylindrical array.

I will post the exact values and a instructions on how to make the changes via Ludgar's editor soon. :up:

[LuftWolf]

I think I should mention that in testing the mod, we have found out that for some unknown reason, the ADCAPs run at 63kts. :shifty: :dead:

If you look in the DB, the max speed is set to 60 as is the max on the fire control panel There is no good reason why this should be happening from a database or modding standpoint. The possible explanation available to us is that the physics engine is miscalcuating a thrust value due to the particular parameters (weight, drag, etc) of the ADCAP.

I don't mind, as its said to be able to go even faster for short distances, but I thought I'd let you guys know, as it's now a "known issue" with v1.03. :up:

[Amizaur]

I think that AI subs should have second generic hull sonar added, they should use it without problems, just like AI Akulas or Kilos. Also some subs (like Trafalgar) could get generic towed array. I only don't know if AI subs actually deploy and use towed arrays :hmm:

For 63kts ADCAP - the issue is older than mod, because all faster than 55kts torpedos do some strange things, for example Type-40 torpedo reaches 72-73kts sometimes... their database speed is 65kts.
Have to see what will Japanese Type-89 do, have to provoke a Harusio to fire at me :)

[LuftWolf]

***Actually ignore this, if you've come late. Amizaur did a thorough speed test and the engine is bugged for all torps from 58-159kts.***

Ok guys, from the strange but true file.


The game engine is hardcoded to treat the max speed of the ADCAP at 55kts for calculation purposes. Raising the max speed of the weapon to something above 55kts, in effect, tells the engine to compute the physics at 55kts, and then add whatever the value the max speed is above 55kts to *any calculation*, up to about 3-4kts, based on early tests. So, when you tell the weapon to run at a particular speed, the game calculates that speed, and then adds the value above max speed to the torpedo calculations.

I have tried to run at max speed 60kts, and for any setting, we get about 4 kts above, with max 63kts. When I changed it to 58kts, I got a max speed of 61kts, and an over of about 3kts. If the max speed is set to 56kts, then the over will be 1 kts and the max speed will be 56kts, where the two effects would intersect on a graph.

This is unfortunate and unexpected. I think Ive had an interesting day of discoveries. :88) I smell DARPA's hand in this. :-j

In all seriousness, why would SCS hardcode the algorithms to 55kts for the ADCAP? since that is the only explanation for this regular but odd behavior...

Edit: I just read Amizaur's post, it could be a bug in the physics engine, but this is very particular behavior.

[Amizaur]

I think it's not ADCAP-only issue, it's common for all torpedos. Make another AI used torpedo 60kts and see how fast it will go...

Just verified that some AI subs ARE COMPLETLY DEAF to the front !!!
That would explain some stories about ramming a Han without detection.

For example Han, Harusio and Ohio are deaf in front 60 degrees zone.
The deaf zone it's not 210 degrees, I forgot that 150 degrees cone of AI sensor means 150 each side, so efectively 300 degrees. But that still leaves 60deg deaf zone in front of many AI subs...

[LuftWolf]

Does anyone have any idea what max and min "Beam width" do in the sensor profile?

That is the one attribute that makes me very hestitant to change cone geometries in any arbitrary way. :hmm:

[Amizaur]

Well, I don't know unfortunately... tried to change (increase) it to simulate worse angular resultion of towed array in front-rear axis, expected wider contact trace on broadband, but the result was target track scattered for whole sonar display :-(

SCS says it support modders, then some kind of modding documentation would be nice... all we know about database entries is what Ludger and jsteed have guessed.

[LuftWolf]

Oops, Amizaur corrected me. The cones are actually double the value listed in the DB, around the axis of symetry.

So the AI platforms with only one sensor are only 60 degrees blind. That's not so bad, but still... the sensors are extremely weak, as it is, and should be corrected.

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, that's why I had the idea, as a "quick fix" of giving making the LF passive sonar an "uber sensor" similiar to a more deaf FFG TA (borrowing the geometry most importantly).

The the range of the HF passive sonar could be increased and that would be good enough, as many of those subs would have a baffle.

[LuftWolf]

I just gave my 688i sphere the FG TA array geometry and it works beautifully!

It's up to you guys, we could have this very soon. :up:

Keep in mind, it might make the AI a bear to fight. :know:

Edit: Given that surface platform currently share the LF passive sonar with submarines, that solution has lost a little bit of taste for me, as it would either result in very sensitive submarines or very deaf surface ships at speed (currently they are more or less anyway). I think I will try something... :ping:

[PeriscopeDepth]

I believe I gave the AI ears in the DB I sent LuftWolf a few weeks ago and broke the generic LF Passive sensor into four sensors (only three of which are used) and gave the more capable ones to the more capable submarines and the less capable ones to the less capable submarine. The Han shouldn't have an LF Passive sensor as it doesn't have a towed array. The more capable generic LF Passive sensor (which most western and European and Russian AI subs are given) is equal to the TB-16 (which happens to be the same as the SQR-19, apart from beam widths and whatnot). I also set the AI sensor cones to the same as the playable TAs.

Did you actually look at what I sent you LuftWolf? Not trying to be mean, just curious.

[LuftWolf]

Yes, I looked at the submarine sound level fixes. :88)

I either forgot or didn't read that you had done the sonars as well. :oops:

I'm really sorry about that. :damn: In case you were wondering, I was planning on including what you had done in consultation with you for v1.04, including it under the "more difficult" moddling heading, as I wanted the sound levels to be agreeable for everyone.

My bad. :dead:

Edit: Please see my email. :cry:

[PeriscopeDepth]

Take a look at what I did with the sensors and see if you and Amizaur think it makes sense. I put what I changed in the DB in the textfile that was also in the zip.

I'm not trying to nag you about crediting me in the readme or whatever, just think it's kinda silly that you didn't notice the sensor issue before especially when I sent you a DB that addressed the issue weeks ago. The AI being deaf is one of the top three things wrong with the DB IMO.

:)

And BTW, I'm thinking about adding additional AI platforms into the DB and just using generic models that come with the game to portray them.

[LuftWolf]

I'm sometimes a very silly person and operate under a stress level that makes me miss somethings, of course, for no good reason at all, given what my responsiblities are. :-j

In my mind, I had your mod as, "the mod with the sound level changes" and that's my only excuse. Other than that, I hope you can accept my apologizies and explanation that we made a decision not to include any sound level changes, which was probably a mistake on my part in suggesting that.

I have looked at your changes, and to be honest, I don't know the various platforms well enough to have made those changes. There are a couple of things that I would change, and I'll consult with you and Amizaur about that, but largely, I believe you will get credit for that part of the mod, because I would have definately sought your help if you knew enough to make those changes.

In terms of the AI sensor fixes, I will email you with a couple of questions right now. :up:

[PeriscopeDepth]

Fuhgettabout it. :)

[LuftWolf]

For those of you that want to know NOW:

Amizaur did a thorough test of the torpedo speeds. All torpedos from 58kts max speed to 159kts max speed exhibit all kinds of funny oscillations in speed and sometimes course and depth. This behavior demonstrates a problem in the physics engine, most likely. Note: 200kts shikvals and any torpedo with speed under 58kts work fine.

I think there will be more on this to come. :hmm:

[Bellman]

LW I thought it might keep this fraternity up to speed if I posted an extract from yours on BFC 4/9/05 :-


We are currently looking at a new version (sooner that expected) that adds realisticly varying sensor cones for torpedos (by type, from ADCAP with several catagories down to Subrocs and older torpedos) and adds varying passive sonar sensors to AI subs and ships, to correct a 60 degree *total* blindness that many AI units have (the reason you can run over a Han at 30kts from the front) and give AI units MUCH more sensitive sonars, similar to human platforms, so they have a fighting chance at out-detecting a human platform, as currently all AI only vessels have extremely weak sonars, which, I believe, is 85% of the explanation as to why AI platforms, especially subs, appear to act "dumb" in many tactical situations.

Also on tap for this next version is a rescaling of all platforms passive sound levels, to make passive detections more difficult in general, and also relative changes to better reflect real-world sound levels between submarines.

I believe the combined effect of these three changes will make DW light years better, especially in missions that require many AI platforms to behave realisticly. I will keep you guys posted. I hope to have a version done in the next few days.

Cheers,
David
LW



Can't wait - heck you guys are busy. :up: :|\

[LuftWolf]

Thanks Bellman, I was just going to post an update! :sunny:

We've got a couple of other things in this next version, too. :up:

Expect a full list of changes tonight, and perhaps the mod itself. :rock: :arrgh!:

Cheers,
David

[SquidB]

Expect a full list of changes tonight, and perhaps the mod itself.

Wow you guys are prevelant, excellent news. You guys are making up for SCS's tardyness in patching this software and making SP a viable challenge.

Fantastic :rock:

[jlab]

yes, big ups luftwolf and amizaur. it's nothing against the DWX crew at all, but thanks for stepping into the void... :cool:

i confess to playing more sub command/scx than anything lately... :doh:

[LuftWolf]

Ok, here is a working list of changes for the next version of the mod. :)

Keep in mind, a number of these changes constitute major readjustments, and as such, may need to be refined an integer this way or that in future versions. :know: :up:

Submarine and Ship Sound Level Fix-- (In colloboration with Periscope Depth, credit also to Finiteless and jsteed)

I have lowered the Passive Sound Levels of the submarines generally to decrease detection ranges in ASW and adjusted them to reflect real world values. Also, American warships have been made quieter. Here is a sample of values.

Han-74, OHP/Spruance-68, Akula I-62, Oscar/688-60, Trafalgar/AkulaIimp-59, 688i/Vepr'-58, Gepard/Kilo-57, Ohio/SW-55, KiloImp-53, Collins-50.

Sensor Changes (In colloboration with Periscope Depth):

I have added sensors to all sonar-bearing platforms that reflect realistic sonars. I have done this in the following method. Divided the sonars into three catagories: Western, Modern Russian/Soviet-Nuclear, Eastern Diesel/Old Eastern Block. From the Western, I made three scaled versions each of the Sphere, Hull, and TA sonars from the 688i sensors, and assigned them to each platform in the game with Western sonars, according to level and whether they had a TA. I then did the same for the Modern Russian, borrowing from the Akula Sensors, assigning them to nuclear submarines with modern Eastern Sonar. The Kilo array model I used for diesels with eastern sonars and old submarines, which are mostly eastern.

The primary difference between the Western and Eastern sonars are the washout speed. The best Russian arrays are more sensitive than the worst Western arrays (still good), but the Western arrays maintain a signal at a higher speed. The new Eastern sonars and the old Eastern sonars differ in terms of their maximum range, the Kilo sensors I used for the model are much shorter range than the Akula sensors.

Akula II Gepard/Oscar-- I have added the Pelamida II, which has a max operational speed 4 kts faster than the Pelamida. This is a hypothetical change.

Torpedo Changes:

Amizaur is currently modeling varying-quality seeker cones for torpedos. He also has doctrines that prevent AI platforms from sinking ships with torpedos launched at submarines and, *perhaps*, a doctrine-level fix that prevents torpedos from exploding on CM's!!! :doh: :up: :rock:

I have reduced the speeds of all torpedos over 55 kts with the following compensations: ADCAP-given PSL 15 points lower than other torpedos (from finiteless Realism Mod); type 89, Spearfish, APR-2E compensated with extra range; Type 40 no other changes, as it has been considered before on its own to reduce effectiveness of SS-N-27 ASW.

I have changed some Russian ASW warfare aircraft to drop the APR-2E, the same torp as the Helix, as previously it had been overlooked that they were dropping the modded 53cm/USGT. :oops:

Mk46--Given Mk54 hypothetical specs 17km@50kts with max depth 500m and a light weight, for airdrop use in littoral waters. I have given the Mk46 ASW torpedo Mk 46 specs, and swapped out the modded Mk 46 in all non-American platforms and the Mk46 ASROC. I thought it wasn't good to have a useless Mk46, so I did some research and came up with a torpedo that is marginally better than the Mk50 all round, but doesn't replace it. As the Navy's intention is to have a lower cost option to the Mk50, which is very expensive. For me personally, I will be taking more Mk 54's now, unless I need to kill something deep! ;)

Ok, I think that is it. :up: :arrgh!:

I am waiting to hear back on a few things and then rewrite the readme and probably change a few values this way and that, and the mod should be out in version 2.0. :rock:

I hope you guys enjoy! :|\


EDIT:

To Be Added:

-Sonar sensor feedback enabled for ADCAP (from Amizaur)!

-Civilian Ship Damage remodelling, to make civilian ships like Super Tanker realistically hard to sink.

-Passive Sonars added for AI surface platforms.

[TLAM Strike]

Ok that’s a lot to take in. Let me know if I got this right.

No changes to the Type 40.

Mk46 changed to Mk54 for US Platforms. Foreign and ASROC's still have true Mk46s

^Personly thats how I would like to see it.

[LuftWolf]

Yes on both points.

The only change to the Type 40 is a reduction in speed to 55 kts, in order to: prevent oscillation bug, reduce effectiveness of SS-N-27 ASW.

[Amizaur]

As far as I know there is no Russian electric ASW torpedo with speed of 65kts (to not say 72kts). The torpedo used in SS-N-27 ASW missile is most probably very light MPT-1UE electric torpedo. There are ASW "underwater rockets" from APR family (ASW torpedos propelled by solid fuel) with speed of 65kts and more, but they are not used as payload in SS-N-27 ASW (too heavy) and have limited range (about 2nm). So there is no real life torpedo that DW's Type-40 (65kts to 7nm) could represent.
And many people complained that, as Type-40 impossible to evade because of it's speed set to 65kts (and because of game bug, the real torpedo speed was up to 73kts!!!). Don't know parameters of MPT-1UE torpedo, couldn't find it on the net (if someone knows, please tell us!), but every other Russian small electric torps were about 40kts. Because MPT-1UE is new design, it's possible that is capable of about 50kts I think. Most modern, state of the art western electric torpedos like MU-90 are capable of 50-55kts. More speed for Type-40 would be completly unrealistic I think.

BTW I'm back to work, will make the seekers now. Luftwolf are you sure you didn't set some noise levels too low ? Detection ranges lower than for Kilo Improved (NL < 55) are really close, sure realistic but are we doing hyper-realistic mod or one-step-fix mod of SCS database ? :-)

[XabbaRus]

http://www.wonderland.org.nz/rnss.htm

Decent link about Russian missiles.

I understood the SS-N-27 to be armed with a APR-2 or 3 rocket powered torpedo... but that could be wrong. That is what the link about says but the APR series weigh bewteen 450-575Kg

Hard one to find though this link is good..

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WTRussian_post-WWII.htm

[Amizaur]

SS-N-27 was initially planned to be armed with 350mm APR-3E as payload, but eventually it turned out to be too heavy (475kg) and insteed much lighter (285kg) 324mm electric torpedo was used.

But when I'm browsing the net now, looking for 91RE1 data, everywhere I find it's range given as 50km which is 27nm. Maybe range of in-game SS-N-27 ASW should be increased...?
One source (quite recent) says that 50km is the range when launched from max depth (150m), the absolute max range of the 91RE1 missile was given as 100km (54nm) ! (well, it may be possible, the missile is large, carries light payload and have top speed of Mach 2.5) And that it will eventually replace Stallion and Starfish in Russian navy.

So we reduced Type-40 torpedo speed, but maybe insteed we have to increase SS-N-27 ASW range to at least 27nm ?

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, I am going to increase the range of the SS-N-27 ASW missile to make up for the lower speed of Type 40, as you suggested.

In terms of the Passive Sound Levels, doesn't everyone like the idea of getting torped by a Collins you never heard? :-j

In all seriousness, I would rather aim to set the mod at realistic and have to adjust for gameplay, rather than try to find "the best" gameplay settings, and then have everyone argue because it's subjective, and then, in the end, have to adjust things to be more realistic anyway.

I, personally, really like the idea that some AI platforms are in some cases better than human controlled platforms. We'll have to see, but given the specs of some of the AI platforms in terms of their new sonars and sound levels, we really may be in truly "Dangerous Waters" now! ;) :88) :up:

[stormrider_sp]

What I did: (everything based on fas.org)

-Akula 1, I, and 2, share the same hull sensors. The MGK-503-M Skat.

-Akula 1 and I share the same TA - Pelamida

-Akula 2 has an improved version of this TA, the Pelamida II, and sailing with the tide, I followed the same thinking of the TB-16 and TB-23, since the TB-23 is more sensitive, I gave it a slower washout.

-Oscar II has the MGK-503 Sharkgill "sphere", Shark ribs "hull" and MG-519 Mouse Roar "active", also, the Pelamida TA

-I gave the Typhoon the same sensors of the Oscar II

-Victor 3 has the MGK-400 Rubicon and Pithon TA (older sensors so less effective, very close to the Kilo sensors)

-Kilo has the MGK-400EM Rubicon (Shark Teeth sonars)

-Han received that MGK-400 Rubicon

-The 688 received the same sensors of the 688i excluding the TB-23 that I gave to the starboard ta of the 688i

-The Ohio has the BQQ-5 bow and TB-16 TA
Also, I changed the Ohio so that it becomes the SSGN version loaded with up to 154 tomahawk missiles either TASM or TLAM.


American Surface ships:

-Ticonderoga: SQS-53 LF bow (A/P)
-Ticonderoga VLS: SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53 LF bow), SQR-19 TA
-Arleigh Burke (FII-A): SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53 LF bow A/P), Kingfisher mine detection.
-Arleigh Burke: SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53C LF bow A/P), SQR-19 TA
-Spruance: SQQ-89 suite (with SQS-53C LF bow A/P), SQR-19 TA

[Amizaur]

OK so I'll send you all data I have about real submarine noise levels, and some tools to scale those data for DW.

[LuftWolf]

Stormrider,

This is essentially what I have done with the sonars as well, however, I have changed the names of AI sensors for uniformity with debug and dbgviewer.

All of the specific changes you mentioned are essentially identical to what i have, except for the Oscar and Typhoon hull/sphere. I have the oscar with same sensors as Gepard (with Pelamida II) and Typhoon and other late soviet designs with slightly reduced sonars. I have gotten info from Periscope Depth that the Oscar may be the most currently worked-on Russian platform, so it follows that the sonar would be upgraded at least to Akula standards.

My Pelamida II has Max speed increased but same sensitivity, as I assume the Russians would be putting effort into developing sonars that allow for their subs to operate at higher speeds while remaining tactical. At least, that's what I want from my Gepard. :up:

Also, my information has the Han being upgraded to use French sonar (DUUX-5, from the USNI and internet), so I gave it the same capability as the Rubis, minus the TA.

Amizaur, cool. :up:

[LuftWolf]

I need to emphasize that any discussion of particulars about this stuff looks more or less the same whether there are experts involved or not: "My data/heresy says this." "No, my data/heresy says that." Etc, etc...

This is all open to review and discussion of course about particular values and whether or not such and such a ship has such and such a this or that, but the basic goal is to make DW work better now. I'll be more than glad to make changes in later versions based on new or better data.

[stormrider_sp]

yeah, that´s what I was trying to explain in the other topic about individual sensors... most platforms share the same sensors.

I was playing a few minutes ago, and I found a bug probably in the doctrines of the Helos.

I promoted a hostile submarine to link so that the Spruance would vector one of its inboud choppers to the contact. It did in fact, but the Helo just kept flying around the contact.....I think that it should deploy its dipping sonar to confirm the classification or launch a buoy or something, but what´s good in fly around it......

[LuftWolf]

Are you using the corrected helodipping.txt doctrine by Bill? It's available on the download page on his site.

I think it is designed to correct that behavior.

Yeah, I was amazed at how many ships and subs use the same sensor suites in RL.

[TLAM Strike]

One thing I would like to see is a reworking of the Anti-Ship Missile sensors. Only three missiles in the DB have IR (SS-N-9, Penguin and Hellfire), now some other subsonic missiles probaly do have IR lke the SS-N-2C. I think this is worth doing some research to make FFG play more realistic because currently I don't see much reason to have Flares in the decoy launchers.

[Amizaur]

Can be done :-)
I wonder what would be effect of giving both (radar and IR) sensors to a missile like SS-N-19, would that work or not :)
And what needs changing for sure is the cone of missile radar seeker, it's currently so wide that missiles make almost 90deg turn sometimes...

[TLAM Strike]

Supersonic missiles like the SS-N-19 shouldn't have IR seekers since the high speed causes heat that disables them.
http://yarchive.net/mil/russian_missiles.html

The SS-N-9 Siren has both a Radar and IR seeker in game, so get a few of those shot at you and you’ll see that they work. ;)

[Pigfish]

One thing I would like to see is a reworking of the Anti-Ship Missile sensors. Only three missiles in the DB have IR (SS-N-9, Penguin and Hellfire), now some other subsonic missiles probaly do have IR lke the SS-N-2C. I think this is worth doing some research to make FFG play more realistic because currently I don't see much reason to have Flares in the decoy launchers.

:yep: Noticed this awhile back also. Definetly chaff are the way to go with the OHP if you know who your enemy is in mission brief.

[LuftWolf]

I have fantastic news! :huh: :doh: :rock:

After much effort on his part, Amizaur has sent me a combined complete reworking of both the Sound vs. Speed fix and the submarine passive sound levels!!! :up: :o

New SSN's will have a different speed curve from old SSN's. Submarines that are realistically quiet when still but very noisy when moving, such as older SSK's, will be modelled as such at realistic sound levels. SSBN's will be relatively quiet at max speed, and the quietest SSK's will be wery wery quiet... :arrgh!:

There is still some work I have do in integrating it into the working database, but we have something very good coming for you here! :D :sunny:

Cheers,
David

[Bill Nichols]

Can't wait to see it! You guys are doing great work :up:

[Bellman]

LuftWolf and Amizaur are keeping the flame burning.

Well done guys. :rock: :|\

[LuftWolf]

Ok, we are looking at a release of v2.0 most likely by Saturday. :rock:

Thank you for your continued enthusiasm and feedback! :know: :up:

Cheers,
David

[Adm. Ahab]

Ok, we are looking at a release of v2.0 most likely by Saturday. :rock:

Thank you for your continued enthusiasm and feedback! :know: :up:

Cheers,
David

Outstanding!

A big thank ye' to you guys for your work. :up:

[porphy]

Impressive work going on :up: Looking forward to try it out. Autum is here and it is time for sub sims and coffee... This will make it much more interesting. Thx. :yep: :yep: :yep:

Cheers Porphy

[stormrider_sp]

Great News!
:up:

[Neutrino 123]

Could you post the new base noise levels for the different units, and maybe a print-out chart of sound vs. speed for the playable platforms? I always use the sound-speed chart when plotting my velocity (along with the sensor washout numbers). If this takes too long, just tell me where I can find them when version 2 is released. :ping:

P.S. You mod is getting better and better. Perhaps its changes could be incorporated into DWX when that comes out?

[LuftWolf]

Neutrino, that is a very good idea. I'm going to focus on getting the distribution out with a good readme, and then I will probably do a sound vs speed chart for the version a day or two after, when I have a little extra time.

Thanks for the suggestion! :)

Edit: Or perhaps I could include it with the distribution itself, that would probably be the most helpful, so I think that is what I am going to try to do. :up:

[Amizaur]

In fact I have ready Excel spreadsheets with all the noise level data and a tool to make graphs of speed/sound profiles, so it won't make any problem :-). But currently I'm working on the mod sonars and doctrines so expect graphs little later, maybe after mod relase.

Edit: or maybe I'll sit and make them when the mod will be ready, so it may be included in package :-) but only after mod is finished.

[Bellman]

:sunny: Amizaur and Luftwolf - I'm speechless..............................
:up: :up: :rock: :|\

[Mercedes]

It's hard to believe the amount of work you guys put in to strive for realism.

Hats off.

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur and I are finishing v2.0 of the mod now.

I am working on the readme currently and Amizaur is making final edits on the database and his *fabulous* doctrine mods.

I will post a first version of the readme as soon as I can, but here's a teaser:

Amizaur has coded a doctrine-level solution for torpedos that completely prevents them from exploding on acquired CM's AND prevents AI platforms from hitting ships with torpedos launched at submerged targets. :rock: :rock: :rock: :up:

Much more to follow very soon. :D

[Molon Labe]

Awesome.

I just hope that, if the non-detonating thing works, that the CM effectiveness is not reduced as originally planned.

This should hopefully end the need for saturation tactics and make DW more of a skill game. Great work. :up:

[Skybird]

And I was just about posting questions if the CM were realistic... Wading through this thread I must say you guys solved some issues that in this first week since I am with DW got my "attention". My compliments! Deeds say so much more than words. I haven't tried 1.03, but will wait for 2.0 now which seems to be just short time away now. ah, and ask SCS to pay you a fee. they really should, since it is their job you are doing - and delivering :up: :yep:

[LuftWolf]

Here is the complete readme (some changes may be made prior to release):



LuftWolf and Amizaur’s Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod v2.0
Hosted by www.subguru.com
Readme by LuftWolf

Amizaur has made a more substantial and significant contribution to the creation of this mod than me. Thank you to finiteless, Ludgar, and jsteed for their contributions to modding DW. Thank you to Bill “Subguru” Nichols for hosting the work of so many talents modders and mission designers.

All doctrines by Amizaur.

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW game-play that most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without introducing any new ones. Thank you in advance for downloading this mod. Please send as much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread on the www.subsim.com main forum, http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

INSTALLATION: Unzip the file into your Dangerous Waters directory, the Database files and Doctrine files will install to the proper directories on their own. I recommend backing up your Database and Doctrine files before making any changes.

Note: This mod represents substantial changes to DW core game-play, and as such, will probably require fine-tuning in subsequent versions to particular values based on game-play experiences. However, such is the case precisely because, we feel, it represents a quantum leap towards bringing out the full potential of the massive and dynamic DW engine in terms of providing the feel of a quality simulation experience for both those new to the simulation genre and weathered deep blue warriors. Please send us AAR’s and comments in as great a quantity as you can! We would be especially encouraged to hear from players in the multiplayer community.

A Sound vs. Speed profile chart and new Ship, Sub, and Torpedo specification table will be released in support of this readme, to cover any specific changes to AI ships or weaponry (such as the complete listing of sonar parameter assignments) not covered in this document, however, I have taken to care to note the most important specific parameter changes to user platforms and weapons.

v2.0

Game-Play Changes

Sonar:

Passive Sonar—Amizaur has changed all passive sensors to have a virtually unlimited detection range potential, meaning that very loud contacts will be detected at very distant ranges, and there is no sudden “spike” when very loud contacts come into detection range. Detection performance against quiet targets is unchanged, as the majority of contacts are acquired under the previous maximum range of most user-platform sensors.

Active Sonar—Amizaur has been able to reduce the detection range of the DICASS active detection on submarines to something under max range, so now it is possible for the sub player to avoid detection within the range of the sonar by lowering speed and showing a low aspect to the active sonar array. This change represents a fundamental database correction for the “active sonar bug” currently in DW v1.01 and should help balance the game until the fix is hard-coded in the next official patch, especially aiding Kilo players in attacking surface targets undetected, as previously it was almost impossible to stalk a convoy.

AI Sonar (Thank you to Periscope Depth for input on this aspect of the mod)— I have added sensors to all sonar-bearing platforms that reflect realistic sonars. I have done this in the following method. Divided the sonars into three catagories: Western, Modern Russian/Soviet-Nuclear, Eastern Diesel/Old Eastern Block. From the Western, I made three scaled versions each of the Sphere, Hull, and TA sonars from the 688i sensors, and assigned them to each platform in the game with Western sonars, according to level and whether they had a TA. I then did the same for the Modern Russian, borrowing from the Akula Sensors, assigning them to nuclear submarines with modern Eastern Sonar. The Kilo array model I used for diesels with eastern sonars and old submarines, which are mostly eastern. For surface platform sonars, I have used the FFG sonar as a model.

The primary difference between the Western and Eastern sonars are the washout speed. The best Russian arrays are more sensitive than the worst Western arrays (still good), but the Western arrays maintain a signal at a higher speed. The new Eastern sonars and the old Eastern sonars differ in terms of their maximum range, the Kilo sensors I used for the model are much shorter range than the Akula sensors.

A separate chart listing sonars, assignments, and detection parameters will most likely be released subsequent to the mod after further testing.

Object Sound and Sound vs. Speed Fix (for sound levels credit also to finiteless, jsteed, and Periscope Depth; research, final design, and implementation by Amizaur)—Amizaur has completely reworked the object sounds and the sound vs. speed behavior for realistic effects. Submarines and ships are realistically quiet across platforms and have been assigned varying speed curves. New SSNs have different speed curves from old SSNs. SSBNs are relatively quiet at max speed. Old diesels are quiet when stopped but very noisy when moving at speed, and the latest SSKs are very quiet. In addition, all surface platforms have been assigned realistic speed curves and American ships, especially the OHP FFG, are quieter than before relative to other platforms. Specifically, the OHP does not increase noise above stationary level until it is running above 10kts. Please see the separate Sound vs. Speed Chart for specifics.

Playable Passive Sonar Parameters—All playable passive sonar arrays have changed to have a Maximum detection of height of 10m. Previously hull sonars and buoys had a Max of 0m and sphere and towed arrays had a max of 300m. This caused any object with a passive sound level to show up on sonar as if it were underwater, specifically sea-skimming missiles whose sound levels were changed in this mod to simulate underwater missile launch (Thank you TLAM Strike for finding this). I have not set the depths to 0m because this causes contacts to display inconsistently on the BB waterfall. I do not believe that cone sensitivity is effected in any way by this fix within the detection Max and Mins, but there could be other issues I am not aware of. This may be refined later, but it is necessary now to address persistent sea-skimming missile transients.

Torpedos:

Amizaur has been able to make significant improvements to torpedo function.

TorpHoming Doctrine—This doctrine completely disables torpedo explosions on countermeasures. The torpedo, after acquiring a dropped decoy, will pass through the decoy and re-enable on the other side. Sometimes the torpedo will demonstrate odd behavior immediately after being spoofed, as could be realistic, but will always return to seeking properly if within its max range. Note: some of the TEST-71s on the Kilos use the wakehoming doctrine, so their behavior is unaffected by this mod.

Torpedo Doctrine—The updated version of this doctrine: reduces the search arc of the snake pattern for torpedoes to 30 degrees; randomizes the first turn of the snake pattern; and, most importantly, prevents AI torpedoes launched against submerged targets from striking surface ships 90% of the time, by lowering the minimum depth of AI launched torpedoes.

Torpedo Seekers—Amizaur has modeled a wide range of active and passive seekers, with individual seekers for the most important torpedoes, including distinctive ping frequencies for classification over active intercept, as is realistic. The ADCAP active seeker is max range 3000m and its passive seeker is max range 1000m, will all other torpedoes scaled down from there, meaning there has been a significant reduction in the effectiveness of all torpedo weapons to reflect realistic parameters. Note: the parameters of all of the torpedo seekers have been tweaked so that thermal layers have a much greater effect on torpedo performance. Also, the seekers cones of the ADCAP and USGT have been increased to minimize the effect of the reduced snake search pattern on the effectiveness of these weapons.

Counter Measure Effectiveness—The effectiveness of launched anti-torpedo CM’s has been reduced to 40%. In addition, to emphasize, torpedoes will no longer explode on decoys. We feel that the reduction in CM effectiveness is necessitated by the much closer detection range of all sonar systems on quiet platforms do to reduction in over all sound level which changes game-play significantly, especially the great reduction in torpedo seeker ranges, as well as the greater effect of thermal layers. This and all aspects of the mod are welcome to community input for future changes, so please send as much feedback as you can!

Torpedo Sensor Feedback—ADCAP, USGT, and TEST-71 family of wire-guided torpedoes have been equipped with ability to send sensor feedback to the launching platform similar to the UUV. Targets marked by the torpedo sensors will be marked with a T prefix, and will be accounted for by the TMA just like other sensor tracks. Please send as much feedback as possible about this particular feature of the mod, as it can be extremely helpful in hunting lone subs at range, but in crowded contact environments can lead to a large number of extra tracks, especially with multiple torpedo launches. I have to say, this feature is extremely cool.

WakeHoming Doctrine—Amizaur has reduced somewhat the effectiveness of wake-homing torpedoes by shortening the detection range of their sensor, especially for frontal shots against ships, which now much be made much more accurately. In general, the effect of this doctrine is to make wake-homing torpedoes something less than the 99% effective they were before, especially against targets that make effective evasive maneuvers. Also, all strictly wakehoming torpedoes have altered to be fired only against identified surface targets.

Fast Torpedo Speed Oscillation Fix—Due to a hard-coded error in the DW v1.01 engine, all torpedoes from speeds 56-159 display a wide speed oscillation and or increased speed. We cannot change this directly, however, the speeds of all torpedoes over 55kts have been reduced to 55kts and compensated with more realistic parameters.
ADCAP—Speed raised in v1.03 of our mod to 60kts. Lowered again to 55kts and given the best seeker in the mod as well as torpedo sensor feedback.
Spearfish—Range increased by 10,000m to 32km.
Type 89—Reduced turn radius to 100 (as all other torpedos) as previously high turn radius is now unnecessary with lower speed. Increased range by 15,000m to 45km and given it ASuW capability.
Type 40—Increased range of SS-N-27 ASW family of subrocs to 27nm, as is realistic.
APR-2E—range increased from 3.2km to 5km.


Damage Modeling:

All values for neutral and supply ships have been adjusted to make them more realistic in terms of the damage they will sustain. Light civilian ships are made more fragile and heavier ships are made realistically difficult to sink. Heavy military supply ships are made slightly more sturdy than the OH Perry Class FFG. Medium supply ships and oil tankers are slightly less rugged than the OHP, and medium civilian ships have been made slightly tougher than before. Expect to have to use several medium and light torpedoes or missiles against heavy shipping now, with more necessity to be careful in wasting weapons when facing a convoy. Please see the separate platform specifications table to be released soon after the release of the mod for details.

Masts and Cables:

Periscope Depth’s Cable Length Mod—Thank you to Periscope Depth for providing this. The length of user-platform cables have been changed to real-world lengths: SQR-19/TB-29/23—5000ft, MH-60 Dipping Sonar—2500ft, and Pelamida TA—2300/701m.

Universal Doctrine Fixes:


SubAvoidxx-- Doctrines correct a bug in sub evasion routines that tells them to come too
shallow while evading, causing cavitation. Well tested.

Missle/MissleSam-- Corrects minor bugs in missile launch angles. Well tested.

SubrocAttack-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points.

CIWSAttack.txt-- Directs ships to fire a barrage of missles at "hard" targets,
ALPHA very close or very fast. It is your choice to include this, you can backup
your original CIWSAttack.txt doctrine and change the name of the file
included. I have played with this, and it definately makes ships launch more
SAM's at incoming vampires. I have yet to encounter any bugs with it.





Missile Parameters:

Passive Signature for Underwater Missile Launch--All sub-launched missles now produce a very noisy transient when launched. The exception to this is the Harpoon, which is much quieter,simulating its launch from a canister which opens up once it gets to the surface, making it a better option verse the TASM than previously.***Underwater missile launches will not give a TIW or any other audio warning.*** Thank you Bellman for raising this issue and Fish for confirming it over a LAN. Also, Amizaur has include a doctrine addition to the general submarine avoidance doctrine, SubDef, that allows subs to recognize underwater missile launches and evade under parameters in which it could be a subroc attack, giving AI subs a better chance of clearing the target datum and surviving subroc attack.


IR Signatures-
IR signatures added for all missles based on type, with a reasonable scaling from
seaskimming cruise-missles to supersonic, rocket powered anti-ship missles. This now
makes RAMs effective against anti-ship missles.

Amizaur's MANPAD Seeker Fix-
We have included the fix that has been around for sometime, reducing the seeker cone
of MANPADs to 3 degrees.

Radar Heights Changed—Some radar heights have been lowered, as previously some ships
BETA had been able to see too far over the horizon. Also, the minimum altitude
of the AEGIS SPY-1 Radar has been lowered from 5000ft to 10ft, which should
help them better track sea-skimming vampires.

Launched Anti-Missile CM's—effectiveness raised from 20% to 25%.(Thank you Mau for
suggesting this.)

MAD/SAD:

MAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -1000.ft

SAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -750ft. Note:
the only difference between a MAD and SAD detection in the game is the depth at which
they are detected, so if I set the depths the same, the sensors would be exactly the
same sensor,as the platforms only vary in MAD characteristic, and have no separate SAD
characteristic).

AI MAD—AI platforms do not have a separate MAD/SAD detector. Previously, they had been setto detect from 0 to -3000ft. In order to permit realistic evasion tactics from MAD
equipped AI air platforms, I have set the AI MAD sensor to have SAD characteristics
(have fun under those funky sounding cargo ships!)

User Platform, Weapon, and Sensor Specific Changes

User Torpedo Specification Changes: (Thank you to Bellman for raising the issue of torpedo balancing)

53cm Torpedo—given UGST specifications: Active/Passive Multipurpose Wireguided Torpedo, 50km@50kph, with maximum depth 800m (less on fire-control preset panel) with 300kg warhead (vs. MK48 ADCAP 850m depth w/350kg warhead).

65cm Torpedo—guidance sensor and doctrine changed to simulate 65-76 Wakehoming Hydrogen Peroxide-powered Torpedo (the type supposedly removed after the Kursk Incident). All specifications have been left the same except guidance-following the wakehome doctrine now-and the the wire has been removed. The wire-guidance option has been disable in-game, but I can't change the fire-control graphics, so you'll just have to remember that the A/P and search pattern buttons do nothing, and that the torpedo will continue in a straigh line after it enables. LAUNCH THE TORPEDO WITH THE DEPTH SET AT ~10m, depending on how lucky you feel that day. The Nixie should not affect this weapon in any way, but over-the-side decoys will cause enough of a disturbance in the water to distrupt the wakehoming, but the torpedo will not detonate on the CM's, and usually reaquire.

Mk46—Given Mk54 hypothetical specs, 17km@50kts with max depth 500m and a light weight, for airdrop use in littoral waters (the turn radius may be decreased in subsequent versions to further increase this effect). I have given the Mk46 ASW torpedo Mk 46 specs, and swapped out the modded Mk 46 in all non-American platforms and the Mk46 ASROC for the Mk 46 ASW (with Mk46 specs). So in short, all non-American platforms are armed with the standard Mk 46 torpedo they had previously, and all American platforms have upgraded to Mk 54. Again, Mk 46 ASROC has been left the same for all platforms. I thought it wasn't good to have a useless Mk46, so I did some research and came up with a torpedo that is marginally better than the Mk50 all round, but doesn't replace it, reflecting a torpedo with the upgraded propulsion of a Mk46 with the seeker of the Mk50, which constitutes the actual Mk 54 as indicated by my information. As the Navy's intention is to have a lower cost option to the Mk50, the propulsion system of which is very expensive. For me personally, I will be taking more Mk 54's now, unless I need to kill something deep!

53-65 Wake-homing Torpedo Family—The minimum running depth of the torpedo has been set to -14m in order to ensure proper launch depth against surface targets. You can still launch the torpedo from as deeply as before.

Shikval Mad Sensor—The MAD detonator on the Shikval has had its range reduced by half to 250m, as previously any shot within 500m of the target resulted in a kill, this makes it possible to evade one of these weapons if it is off target and proper maneuvering is used quickly.

SLMM and Mobile Mine—Includes Doctrine Files, Mod by Amizaur
A fix that makes them stop making noise after they have stopped moving has been
applied to both weapons. In addition, they will now actively try to stop once
they have reached their assigned location and will be reliably on target and hold
their position, making them an effective weapon, which they were not before. Their
maximum usable depth remains the same (300ft for SLMM and 450ft for Mobile mines,
the range of their seekers), but the weapon will shutdown below 600ft. These weapons
are for use in shallow water and will "malfunction" in deep water. ;-) Also, do not
try to use these weapons on a steep slope.

Seawolf Max Speed—The max speed of the Seawolf class has been reduced to 38kts, as is more plausible. The Seawolf is still easily the quietest, fastest, and most heavily armed submarine in the world. ;-)

688(i) Towed Arrays- Added TB-23 as starboard array. The reason I have kept it
on the starboard, against what is commonly reported, is because in missions
where ownship starts with TA deployed, it is always the starboard array, and I
figured in most situations I would want that one deployed. The port TB-16
washes out at ~20kts and the TB-23 washes out at around ~16kts (you folks
can tell me if that feels right once you play around with it...
or if I'm just completely off...). I have set the sensitivity of the TB-23
to be pretty much in the middle of the TB-16 and the TB-29. I was even able to
change the names in game, so have fun captains!

Akula II Modified Gepard TA—The array of the Gepard has been upgraded to hypothetical Pelamida II standards, with a Max speed of +4kts over the original Pelamida, and the in game name has been changed to “Pelamida II”. The sensitivity has been left as it is. This array has also been assigned to the Oscar SSGN, to reflect the latest developments in the most funded Russian submarine projects.

Kilo Improved Sensors—The cylindrical and hull arrays of the Kilo Improved series of subs has been marginally improved over the Kilo in order to reflect real-world improvements from one version of the Kilo to the next, as well as compensate slightly for the new sound levels. The Kilo Imp should be able to detect loud contacts from reasonably far away, around 40km, however is severely limited by lack of a TA in ASW warfare, with limited detection ranges on all modern submarines.

Midget Sub—The Midget sub has been given a periscope sensor, as previously it had no sensors at all, and its active sonar parameters have been changed to make it more detectable as is realistic.

Russian SVTT-Ship Launched Torpedos—Changed to USET-80, to better reflect Russian
capabilites. Note, only Russian SVTT launchers previously
equipped with 53cm torpedos have been changed, some launchers are equipped
with other torpedos. Also, the Grisha FFL retains the 53cm Torpedo w/UGST
specifications, as the USNR in-game database says its launchers have
been modified to fire wire-guided torpedos, so I thought it might be interesting.

Russian Airdropped Torpedoes—Platforms that had previously been firing the 53cm will use the APR-2E, the torpedo which comes equipped as the default weapon the Helix ASW Helo.

SLAM-ER Fix—I have removed the missile's IR seeker, which apparently was interfering with its terminal homing. The missile now looks in the DB and behaves in the game
like a light TLAM, and, *functions correctly*, exploding on target with
the same accuracy of a TLAM. Note, this weapon is not the most effective strike
missile, as it has less than half of the warhead of the TLAM, meaning you need
more than one missile to destroy medium and heavy targets if the missile does
not land directly on target. Even small, light targets may escape the blast of
this missile if it overshoots. For some reason, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE
WAYPOINTS, THIS MISSLE WILL NOT WORK!!! I can't change this, and I'm not sure why.


SS-N-27 Two Stage Mod—Mod by Amizaur, doctrine file included—The first stage of the missile launches the second one and rises into the air as a decoy, to simulate the reported real-world function of the missile. This version of the mod uses a streamlined doctrine format that needs only one doctrine file. The enable point of the first stage, which is a cruise missile at 500kts with a max range of 200km/108nm, enables its seeker as usual, however, when the seeker has acquired a target, the missile will fire the second stage, which is the supersonic attack phase equipped with the final seeker and warhead with speed 2.5 mach and range 24km/13nm. This version of the mod requires less finesse in entering the proper range, as the missile will tend to detect targets around the max range of the second stage, but it is good to enable the missile somewhere around the max range of the second stage to minimize the chance of an early fire and take full advantage of the coordination of the second stage supersonic sea-skimming attack phase and first stage post-launch decoy.

That's it! We hope you enjoy! Please let us know if you find any errors, would like to
contribute to a future release, or have any suggestions or comments. The place is http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

Happy Hunting.

LW

[LuftWolf]

Readme posted on page 8. ;) :up:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=175

We have some last minute changes and additions to make to a few platforms and files and then we will do final testing and then I can make the distribution and send it to Bill.

I expect to email it over night so you may have it tomorrow. :up: :rock: :arrgh!:

[Bill Nichols]

If I get it overnight, it should be posted by noon, tomorrow.

[LuftWolf]

Thanks Bill! :up:

The following has been added to the readme:

SubrocAttack-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points and lowers the minimum range of all subrocs to 2nm, so that players cannot exploit the Russian interface bug that allows players to set minimum ranges below what is allowed. Even though you can set it to 0 in the launch, the minimum in effect will still be 2nm.

[Amizaur]

I'm exhausted... 8 hours of modding and 4.43AM here :) but the mod is finished, database is ready (Luftwolf is checking it) and I just finished work on all doctrines. Two major doctrine mods, I'll relase them as standalone too - very simple (but took two days to find) torphoming doctrine fix for torpedos not detonating on CMs (with exeption of towed CM), so they would work like in Sub Command at last :-) and other mod i'm personally very proud of - prevents AI subs and ships from sinking innocent civilian ships or even own surface units with ASW torpedos. It works now just like if AI units were setting proper ceiling for their ASW weapons if surface ships are in proximity.
Well, some very fundamental changes in database too. Be ready for VERY different game, and realism increased by 300%. And this is just verion 2.0 of mod, I have ideas for more improvements :) just not all at once :)

I'm crawling to bed now (thanks God it's close ;-) and tomorrow we have to do only final testing, write documentation and I'll make those graphs for NL etc.

Cheers ! And VERY big THANKS for Ludger, for his support in form of priceless modding tools !!! :up:

[OlegM]

Congrats and thanks (I am in the same timezone as you Amizaur I believe, I played the game while you modded :rock: )

Now get some sleep, and tomorrow, when you take a look at your mod after some rest, prepare to notice some bugs that creeped in while you entered the data, half asleep :rotfl:

O.

[stormrider_sp]

Thanks guys for work hard work and dedication to our community.

Cheers!

[Bellman]

I cant believe the work you guys have done - thank you so much. :cool:

Running through the 2.0 Readme I began to salivate ready for its lunchtime release by Bill.
It is the fullfilment of our wildest dreams.:rock:
There is just so much in there that will completely transform and enhance the games playability. :up:

Then I fell off my chair....................
''Torpedo Sensor Feedback.'' Wooow - words fail me, again. :|\

[LuftWolf]

Thanks guys. :up:

Running through the 2.0 Readme I began to salivate ready for its lunchtime release by Bill.

Amizaur and I have decided to put the mod through one more round of very thorough testing and to hopefully release it with its full documentation (readme plus sound vs speed suppliment and perhaps a unit chart) tonight.

I hope you guys don't mind waiting a little bit longer for a more complete package, we want to make sure we are as bug free as possible before we release. :up:

[Bellman]

:sunny: NP - Take your time - its worth waiting for. :up: :rock: :|\

[PeriscopeDepth]

That's some cool stuff you've done there Amizaur. :cool:

[Fish]

A correction and two questions from me. First, on a LAN, can you use the mod fully by just having the mod on the hosts machine?
The second question is in the readme.

Here is the complete readme (some changes may be made prior to release):



LuftWolf and Amizaur’s Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod v2.0
Hosted by www.subguru.com
Readme by LuftWolf

Amizaur has made a more substantial and significant contribution to the creation of this mod than me. Thank you to finiteless, Ludgar = Ludger , and jsteed for their contributions to modding DW. Thank you to Bill “Subguru” Nichols for hosting the work of so many talents modders and mission designers.

All doctrines by Amizaur.

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW game-play that most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without introducing any new ones. Thank you in advance for downloading this mod. Please send as much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread on the www.subsim.com main forum, http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

INSTALLATION: Unzip the file into your Dangerous Waters directory, the Database files and Doctrine files will install to the proper directories on their own. I recommend backing up your Database and Doctrine files before making any changes.

Note: This mod represents substantial changes to DW core game-play, and as such, will probably require fine-tuning in subsequent versions to particular values based on game-play experiences. However, such is the case precisely because, we feel, it represents a quantum leap towards bringing out the full potential of the massive and dynamic DW engine in terms of providing the feel of a quality simulation experience for both those new to the simulation genre and weathered deep blue warriors. Please send us AAR’s and comments in as great a quantity as you can! We would be especially encouraged to hear from players in the multiplayer community.

A Sound vs. Speed profile chart and new Ship, Sub, and Torpedo specification table will be released in support of this readme, to cover any specific changes to AI ships or weaponry (such as the complete listing of sonar parameter assignments) not covered in this document, however, I have taken to care to note the most important specific parameter changes to user platforms and weapons.

v2.0

Game-Play Changes

Sonar:

Passive Sonar—Amizaur has changed all passive sensors to have a virtually unlimited detection range potential, meaning that very loud contacts will be detected at very distant ranges, and there is no sudden “spike” when very loud contacts come into detection range. Detection performance against quiet targets is unchanged, as the majority of contacts are acquired under the previous maximum range of most user-platform sensors.

Active Sonar—Amizaur has been able to reduce the detection range of the DICASS active detection on submarines to something under max range, so now it is possible for the sub player to avoid detection within the range of the sonar by lowering speed and showing a low aspect to the active sonar array. This change represents a fundamental database correction for the “active sonar bug” currently in DW v1.01 and should help balance the game until the fix is hard-coded in the next official patch, especially aiding Kilo players in attacking surface targets undetected, as previously it was almost impossible to stalk a convoy.

AI Sonar (Thank you to Periscope Depth for input on this aspect of the mod)— I have added sensors to all sonar-bearing platforms that reflect realistic sonars. I have done this in the following method. Divided the sonars into three catagories: Western, Modern Russian/Soviet-Nuclear, Eastern Diesel/Old Eastern Block. From the Western, I made three scaled versions each of the Sphere, Hull, and TA sonars from the 688i sensors, and assigned them to each platform in the game with Western sonars, according to level and whether they had a TA. I then did the same for the Modern Russian, borrowing from the Akula Sensors, assigning them to nuclear submarines with modern Eastern Sonar. The Kilo array model I used for diesels with eastern sonars and old submarines, which are mostly eastern. For surface platform sonars, I have used the FFG sonar as a model.

The primary difference between the Western and Eastern sonars are the washout speed. The best Russian arrays are more sensitive than the worst Western arrays (still good), but the Western arrays maintain a signal at a higher speed. The new Eastern sonars and the old Eastern sonars differ in terms of their maximum range, the Kilo sensors I used for the model are much shorter range than the Akula sensors.

A separate chart listing sonars, assignments, and detection parameters will most likely be released subsequent to the mod after further testing.

Object Sound and Sound vs. Speed Fix (for sound levels credit also to finiteless, jsteed, and Periscope Depth; research, final design, and implementation by Amizaur)—Amizaur has completely reworked the object sounds and the sound vs. speed behavior for realistic effects. Submarines and ships are realistically quiet across platforms and have been assigned varying speed curves. New SSNs have different speed curves from old SSNs. SSBNs are relatively quiet at max speed. Old diesels are quiet when stopped but very noisy when moving at speed, and the latest SSKs are very quiet. In addition, all surface platforms have been assigned realistic speed curves and American ships, especially the OHP FFG, are quieter than before relative to other platforms. Specifically, the OHP does not increase noise above stationary level until it is running above 10kts. Please see the separate Sound vs. Speed Chart for specifics.

Playable Passive Sonar Parameters—All playable passive sonar arrays have changed to have a Maximum detection of height of 10m. Previously hull sonars and buoys had a Max of 0m and sphere and towed arrays had a max of 300m. This caused any object with a passive sound level to show up on sonar as if it were underwater, specifically sea-skimming missiles whose sound levels were changed in this mod to simulate underwater missile launch (Thank you TLAM Strike for finding this). I have not set the depths to 0m because this causes contacts to display inconsistently on the BB waterfall. I do not believe that cone sensitivity is effected in any way by this fix within the detection Max and Mins, but there could be other issues I am not aware of. This may be refined later, but it is necessary now to address persistent sea-skimming missile transients.

Torpedos:

Amizaur has been able to make significant improvements to torpedo function.

TorpHoming Doctrine—This doctrine completely disables torpedo explosions on countermeasures. The torpedo, after acquiring a dropped decoy, will pass through the decoy and re-enable on the other side. Sometimes the torpedo will demonstrate odd behavior immediately after being spoofed, as could be realistic, but will always return to seeking properly if within its max range. Note: some of the TEST-71s on the Kilos use the wakehoming doctrine, so their behavior is unaffected by this mod.

Torpedo Doctrine—The updated version of this doctrine: reduces the search arc of the snake pattern for torpedoes to 30 degrees; randomizes the first turn of the snake pattern; and, most importantly, prevents AI torpedoes launched against submerged targets from striking surface ships 90% of the time, by lowering the minimum depth of AI launched torpedoes.

Torpedo Seekers—Amizaur has modeled a wide range of active and passive seekers, with individual seekers for the most important torpedoes, including distinctive ping frequencies for classification over active intercept, as is realistic. The ADCAP active seeker is max range 3000m and its passive seeker is max range 1000m, will all other torpedoes scaled down from there, meaning there has been a significant reduction in the effectiveness of all torpedo weapons to reflect realistic parameters. Note: the parameters of all of the torpedo seekers have been tweaked so that thermal layers have a much greater effect on torpedo performance. >Is this in parity with the effect on the subs passive sonar by the layer?< Also, the seekers cones of the ADCAP and USGT have been increased to minimize the effect of the reduced snake search pattern on the effectiveness of these weapons.

Counter Measure Effectiveness—The effectiveness of launched anti-torpedo CM’s has been reduced to 40%. In addition, to emphasize, torpedoes will no longer explode on decoys. We feel that the reduction in CM effectiveness is necessitated by the much closer detection range of all sonar systems on quiet platforms do to reduction in over all sound level which changes game-play significantly, especially the great reduction in torpedo seeker ranges, as well as the greater effect of thermal layers. This and all aspects of the mod are welcome to community input for future changes, so please send as much feedback as you can!

Torpedo Sensor Feedback—ADCAP, USGT, and TEST-71 family of wire-guided torpedoes have been equipped with ability to send sensor feedback to the launching platform similar to the UUV. Targets marked by the torpedo sensors will be marked with a T prefix, and will be accounted for by the TMA just like other sensor tracks. Please send as much feedback as possible about this particular feature of the mod, as it can be extremely helpful in hunting lone subs at range, but in crowded contact environments can lead to a large number of extra tracks, especially with multiple torpedo launches. I have to say, this feature is extremely cool.

WakeHoming Doctrine—Amizaur has reduced somewhat the effectiveness of wake-homing torpedoes by shortening the detection range of their sensor, especially for frontal shots against ships, which now much be made much more accurately. In general, the effect of this doctrine is to make wake-homing torpedoes something less than the 99% effective they were before, especially against targets that make effective evasive maneuvers. Also, all strictly wakehoming torpedoes have altered to be fired only against identified surface targets.

Fast Torpedo Speed Oscillation Fix—Due to a hard-coded error in the DW v1.01 engine, all torpedoes from speeds 56-159 display a wide speed oscillation and or increased speed. We cannot change this directly, however, the speeds of all torpedoes over 55kts have been reduced to 55kts and compensated with more realistic parameters.
ADCAP—Speed raised in v1.03 of our mod to 60kts. Lowered again to 55kts and given the best seeker in the mod as well as torpedo sensor feedback.
Spearfish—Range increased by 10,000m to 32km.
Type 89—Reduced turn radius to 100 (as all other torpedos) as previously high turn radius is now unnecessary with lower speed. Increased range by 15,000m to 45km and given it ASuW capability.
Type 40—Increased range of SS-N-27 ASW family of subrocs to 27nm, as is realistic.
APR-2E—range increased from 3.2km to 5km.


Damage Modeling:

All values for neutral and supply ships have been adjusted to make them more realistic in terms of the damage they will sustain. Light civilian ships are made more fragile and heavier ships are made realistically difficult to sink. Heavy military supply ships are made slightly more sturdy than the OH Perry Class FFG. Medium supply ships and oil tankers are slightly less rugged than the OHP, and medium civilian ships have been made slightly tougher than before. Expect to have to use several medium and light torpedoes or missiles against heavy shipping now, with more necessity to be careful in wasting weapons when facing a convoy. Please see the separate platform specifications table to be released soon after the release of the mod for details.

Masts and Cables:

Periscope Depth’s Cable Length Mod—Thank you to Periscope Depth for providing this. The length of user-platform cables have been changed to real-world lengths: SQR-19/TB-29/23—5000ft, MH-60 Dipping Sonar—2500ft, and Pelamida TA—2300/701m.

Universal Doctrine Fixes:


SubAvoidxx-- Doctrines correct a bug in sub evasion routines that tells them to come too
shallow while evading, causing cavitation. Well tested.

Missle/MissleSam-- Corrects minor bugs in missile launch angles. Well tested.

SubrocAttack-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points.

CIWSAttack.txt-- Directs ships to fire a barrage of missles at "hard" targets,
ALPHA very close or very fast. It is your choice to include this, you can backup
your original CIWSAttack.txt doctrine and change the name of the file
included. I have played with this, and it definately makes ships launch more
SAM's at incoming vampires. I have yet to encounter any bugs with it.





Missile Parameters:

Passive Signature for Underwater Missile Launch--All sub-launched missles now produce a very noisy transient when launched. The exception to this is the Harpoon, which is much quieter,simulating its launch from a canister which opens up once it gets to the surface, making it a better option verse the TASM than previously.***Underwater missile launches will not give a TIW or any other audio warning.*** Thank you Bellman for raising this issue and Fish for confirming it over a LAN. Also, Amizaur has include a doctrine addition to the general submarine avoidance doctrine, SubDef, that allows subs to recognize underwater missile launches and evade under parameters in which it could be a subroc attack, giving AI subs a better chance of clearing the target datum and surviving subroc attack.


IR Signatures-
IR signatures added for all missles based on type, with a reasonable scaling from
seaskimming cruise-missles to supersonic, rocket powered anti-ship missles. This now
makes RAMs effective against anti-ship missles.

Amizaur's MANPAD Seeker Fix-
We have included the fix that has been around for sometime, reducing the seeker cone
of MANPADs to 3 degrees.

Radar Heights Changed—Some radar heights have been lowered, as previously some ships
BETA had been able to see too far over the horizon. Also, the minimum altitude
of the AEGIS SPY-1 Radar has been lowered from 5000ft to 10ft, which should
help them better track sea-skimming vampires.

Launched Anti-Missile CM's—effectiveness raised from 20% to 25%.(Thank you Mau for
suggesting this.)

MAD/SAD:

MAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -1000.ft

SAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -750ft. Note:
the only difference between a MAD and SAD detection in the game is the depth at which
they are detected, so if I set the depths the same, the sensors would be exactly the
same sensor,as the platforms only vary in MAD characteristic, and have no separate SAD
characteristic).

AI MAD—AI platforms do not have a separate MAD/SAD detector. Previously, they had been setto detect from 0 to -3000ft. In order to permit realistic evasion tactics from MAD
equipped AI air platforms, I have set the AI MAD sensor to have SAD characteristics
(have fun under those funky sounding cargo ships!)

User Platform, Weapon, and Sensor Specific Changes

User Torpedo Specification Changes: (Thank you to Bellman for raising the issue of torpedo balancing)

53cm Torpedo—given UGST specifications: Active/Passive Multipurpose Wireguided Torpedo, 50km@50kph, with maximum depth 800m (less on fire-control preset panel) with 300kg warhead (vs. MK48 ADCAP 850m depth w/350kg warhead).

65cm Torpedo—guidance sensor and doctrine changed to simulate 65-76 Wakehoming Hydrogen Peroxide-powered Torpedo (the type supposedly removed after the Kursk Incident). All specifications have been left the same except guidance-following the wakehome doctrine now-and the the wire has been removed. The wire-guidance option has been disable in-game, but I can't change the fire-control graphics, so you'll just have to remember that the A/P and search pattern buttons do nothing, and that the torpedo will continue in a straigh line after it enables. LAUNCH THE TORPEDO WITH THE DEPTH SET AT ~10m, depending on how lucky you feel that day. The Nixie should not affect this weapon in any way, but over-the-side decoys will cause enough of a disturbance in the water to distrupt the wakehoming, but the torpedo will not detonate on the CM's, and usually reaquire.

Mk46—Given Mk54 hypothetical specs, 17km@50kts with max depth 500m and a light weight, for airdrop use in littoral waters (the turn radius may be decreased in subsequent versions to further increase this effect). I have given the Mk46 ASW torpedo Mk 46 specs, and swapped out the modded Mk 46 in all non-American platforms and the Mk46 ASROC for the Mk 46 ASW (with Mk46 specs). So in short, all non-American platforms are armed with the standard Mk 46 torpedo they had previously, and all American platforms have upgraded to Mk 54. Again, Mk 46 ASROC has been left the same for all platforms. I thought it wasn't good to have a useless Mk46, so I did some research and came up with a torpedo that is marginally better than the Mk50 all round, but doesn't replace it, reflecting a torpedo with the upgraded propulsion of a Mk46 with the seeker of the Mk50, which constitutes the actual Mk 54 as indicated by my information. As the Navy's intention is to have a lower cost option to the Mk50, the propulsion system of which is very expensive. For me personally, I will be taking more Mk 54's now, unless I need to kill something deep!

53-65 Wake-homing Torpedo Family—The minimum running depth of the torpedo has been set to -14m in order to ensure proper launch depth against surface targets. You can still launch the torpedo from as deeply as before.

Shikval Mad Sensor—The MAD detonator on the Shikval has had its range reduced by half to 250m, as previously any shot within 500m of the target resulted in a kill, this makes it possible to evade one of these weapons if it is off target and proper maneuvering is used quickly.

SLMM and Mobile Mine—Includes Doctrine Files, Mod by Amizaur
A fix that makes them stop making noise after they have stopped moving has been
applied to both weapons. In addition, they will now actively try to stop once
they have reached their assigned location and will be reliably on target and hold
their position, making them an effective weapon, which they were not before. Their
maximum usable depth remains the same (300ft for SLMM and 450ft for Mobile mines,
the range of their seekers), but the weapon will shutdown below 600ft. These weapons
are for use in shallow water and will "malfunction" in deep water. ;-) Also, do not
try to use these weapons on a steep slope.

Seawolf Max Speed—The max speed of the Seawolf class has been reduced to 38kts, as is more plausible. The Seawolf is still easily the quietest, fastest, and most heavily armed submarine in the world. ;-)

688(i) Towed Arrays- Added TB-23 as starboard array. The reason I have kept it
on the starboard, against what is commonly reported, is because in missions
where ownship starts with TA deployed, it is always the starboard array, and I
figured in most situations I would want that one deployed. The port TB-16
washes out at ~20kts and the TB-23 washes out at around ~16kts (you folks
can tell me if that feels right once you play around with it...
or if I'm just completely off...). I have set the sensitivity of the TB-23
to be pretty much in the middle of the TB-16 and the TB-29. I was even able to
change the names in game, so have fun captains!

Akula II Modified Gepard TA—The array of the Gepard has been upgraded to hypothetical Pelamida II standards, with a Max speed of +4kts over the original Pelamida, and the in game name has been changed to “Pelamida II”. The sensitivity has been left as it is. This array has also been assigned to the Oscar SSGN, to reflect the latest developments in the most funded Russian submarine projects.

Kilo Improved Sensors—The cylindrical and hull arrays of the Kilo Improved series of subs has been marginally improved over the Kilo in order to reflect real-world improvements from one version of the Kilo to the next, as well as compensate slightly for the new sound levels. The Kilo Imp should be able to detect loud contacts from reasonably far away, around 40km, however is severely limited by lack of a TA in ASW warfare, with limited detection ranges on all modern submarines.

Midget Sub—The Midget sub has been given a periscope sensor, as previously it had no sensors at all, and its active sonar parameters have been changed to make it more detectable as is realistic.

Russian SVTT-Ship Launched Torpedos—Changed to USET-80, to better reflect Russian
capabilites. Note, only Russian SVTT launchers previously
equipped with 53cm torpedos have been changed, some launchers are equipped
with other torpedos. Also, the Grisha FFL retains the 53cm Torpedo w/UGST
specifications, as the USNR in-game database says its launchers have
been modified to fire wire-guided torpedos, so I thought it might be interesting.

Russian Airdropped Torpedoes—Platforms that had previously been firing the 53cm will use the APR-2E, the torpedo which comes equipped as the default weapon the Helix ASW Helo.

SLAM-ER Fix—I have removed the missile's IR seeker, which apparently was interfering with its terminal homing. The missile now looks in the DB and behaves in the game
like a light TLAM, and, *functions correctly*, exploding on target with
the same accuracy of a TLAM. Note, this weapon is not the most effective strike
missile, as it has less than half of the warhead of the TLAM, meaning you need
more than one missile to destroy medium and heavy targets if the missile does
not land directly on target. Even small, light targets may escape the blast of
this missile if it overshoots. For some reason, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE
WAYPOINTS, THIS MISSLE WILL NOT WORK!!! I can't change this, and I'm not sure why.


SS-N-27 Two Stage Mod—Mod by Amizaur, doctrine file included—The first stage of the missile launches the second one and rises into the air as a decoy, to simulate the reported real-world function of the missile. This version of the mod uses a streamlined doctrine format that needs only one doctrine file. The enable point of the first stage, which is a cruise missile at 500kts with a max range of 200km/108nm, enables its seeker as usual, however, when the seeker has acquired a target, the missile will fire the second stage, which is the supersonic attack phase equipped with the final seeker and warhead with speed 2.5 mach and range 24km/13nm. This version of the mod requires less finesse in entering the proper range, as the missile will tend to detect targets around the max range of the second stage, but it is good to enable the missile somewhere around the max range of the second stage to minimize the chance of an early fire and take full advantage of the coordination of the second stage supersonic sea-skimming attack phase and first stage post-launch decoy.

That's it! We hope you enjoy! Please let us know if you find any errors, would like to
contribute to a future release, or have any suggestions or comments. The place is http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

Happy Hunting.

LW

[LuftWolf]

Yes, Ludgar=Ludger, thanks for catching the typo. :up:

The overall sensitivity of the torpedo seekers has been reduced to the point where the "minimal" layer effect has a practical effect on torpedoes, however there is no increased effect for submarine sonars in this mod. So, no, torpedo seekers are more effected by layer than other sonar systems.

[Molon Labe]

Yes, Ludgar=Ludger, thanks for catching the typo. :up:

The overall sensitivity of the torpedo seekers has been reduced to the point where the "minimal" layer effect has a practical effect on torpedoes, however there is no increased effect for submarine sonars in this mod. So, no, torpedo seekers are more effected by layer than other sonar systems.

Hmm, maybe we'll get lucky and find out that your reworking of the passive sonar range limits ends up increasing layer effects as an unintended consequence! Here's to hoping! :sunny:

[Dr.Sid]

Is there a way to modify USNI references too ? I mean I hardly remember all this modifications .. I need to check befaure I launch (speeds and depths for torpedo and target) and things like this ..

[LuftWolf]

I am entering the final changes into the mod now. I will post an updated readme when I send the zip off to Bill tonight.

Cid, no we can't edit the USNI unfortunately.

Fish, I'm not sure at all sure about how the database and doctrine folders relate to MP. I'd imagine the safest way to go would be to use the same database and doctrines, althought I've heard that the DB is controlled by the host while the doctrines of other players do have some effect, I based on that perhaps only the doctrines have to be the same. :hmm:

[OlegM]

I am entering the final changes into the mod now. I will post an updated readme when I send the zip off to Bill tonight.

Cid, no we can't edit the USNI unfortunately.


USNI is easily editable. It's file structure is quite simple.

Editing it can be pain, though, and is not much fun. But it can be edited.

O.

[LuftWolf]

Oh, I guess I have to look at the DW file structure more closely. :oops:

I couldn't find it... :88)

[OlegM]

Oh, I guess I have to look at the DW file structure more closely. :oops:

I couldn't find it... :88)

I can explain it in more detail tomorrow (it's now almost 5 AM here).

But really it's so simple I doubt any explaining is really needed :|\

Just find USNI files within /graphics folder and open the with decompressor tool you can find on Subguru or some other DW site.

Now I am speaking from memory so maybe I said something wrong, as I said I can go into more detail tomorrow.

Oleg

[Amizaur]

AFAIK in MP doctrine files are host controlled, but database has to be identical far all players. So in practice all players have to have mod installed. But what a problem when "installing" or "uninstalling" a mod means only to change names of two folders ? :-D I guess that a script could be done to make it by a click.

There should be no major changes to platform NLs and noise profiles, so I think I can post it here now :)

v 2.0

Base NL of more important platforms;
(they grow in noise further with speed)

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7488/surfaceshipsnls6qr.gif

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3138/submarinenls6xe.gif

comparison of playable sub noise profiles:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/8868/playablesubsnlcomparisonchart1.gif

It's just 2.0, so not ultimate values :). Some things can possibly change a little in the future - after longer reflection and seeing how they work in practice. But I think not much, IMO balance would have to be ensured rather by scenario designers, than by less realistic database. But even if it doesn't look at first, life now can be short and brutal even for Seawolf drivers :-) Especially when they have to go somwhere, and enemy is slow and quiet :-)

Cheers!

[Molon Labe]

Oh man.

A skimmer, waves slappinig on the hull, same noise level as a Typhoon?

A nuke sub, with its pumps always on, quieter than a diesel on batteries at rest?

You broke my heart.

(Knocking the fishing boat down a bit was a cool idea though)

[PeriscopeDepth]

Oh man.

A skimmer, waves slappinig on the hull, same noise level as a Typhoon?

A nuke sub, with its pumps always on, quieter than a diesel on batteries at rest?

You broke my heart.

(Knocking the fishing boat down a bit was a cool idea though)

I'm sure somebody by now has figured out how to make pumps pretty quiet.

[Amizaur]

Especially for $4.4 billion per boat ;-)

Think how many Improved Kilos, or St. petersurg 677 class, or Type-212 u-boats you could send against one Seawolf if you had the same money ;-) If I could make SSKs quieter at stop than running, I would, but I have no idea how do this. And when runing they are not quieter than best SSNs, at least not classes you can command in DW.

It's mission designer's task to make some "Mission Impossibles" for Seawolf drivers ;-)

Perry's value is not mine, I have no idea about surface ship's NLs... It is supposed to use Praire-Masker all the time, so we agreed to give it lower value. But I wouldn't cry if it was higher in future versions ;-)
BTW it starts to cavitate at 5kts for me, and then NL goes up +20 points immediately... So 88 for 5kts+

[Neutrino 123]

Could you post a numerical table of the noise for the playable platforms? It's a bit hard to see precise values with the graph.

Shouldn't cavitation not affect NB readings?

I wish there was a way to seperate BB noise and NB noise of various platforms. That would make quite a few things more realistic, I think.

[Amizaur]

I wish that too.... for example a Seawolf at flank - I guess a strong broadband noise but with almost no discrete NB lines...
Numerical, you mean

1kts - xxx
2kts - xxx

?

[Neutrino 123]

Like this, but with the new noise levels:
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/6876/noise5gn.th.jpg (http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?image=noise5gn.jpg)

[LuftWolf]

I have sent the v2.0 distribution to Bill.

I decided not to alter the Kilo Imp sonars in this version.

Here is the readme, with comment added by Amizaur.


LuftWolf and Amizaur’s Weapons and Sensors Realism Mod v2.0
Hosted by www.subguru.com
Readme by LuftWolf
Comments by Amizaur

Amizaur has made a more substantial and significant contribution to the creation of this mod than me. Thank you to finiteless, Ludger, and jsteed for their contributions to modding DW. Thank you to Bill “Subguru” Nichols for hosting the work of so many talents modders and mission designers.

All doctrines by Amizaur.

The purpose of this mod is, straightforwardly, to address the aspects of DW game-play that most bother its authors, while improving the simulation experience and fixing bugs, without introducing any new ones. Thank you in advance for downloading this mod. Please send as much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread on the www.subsim.com main forum, http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

INSTALLATION: Unzip the file into your Dangerous Waters directory, the Database files and Doctrine files will install to the proper directories on their own. I recommend backing up your Database and Doctrine folders before making any changes. If you decide to uninstall this mod, all you have to do is to restore backed up Database and Doctrine folders.

Note: This mod represents substantial changes to DW core game-play, and as such, will probably require fine-tuning in subsequent versions to particular values based on game-play experiences. However, such is the case precisely because, we feel, it represents a quantum leap towards bringing out the full potential of the massive and dynamic DW engine in terms of providing the feel of a quality simulation experience for both those new to the simulation genre and weathered deep blue warriors. Please send us AAR’s and comments in as great a quantity as you can! We would be especially encouraged to hear from players in the multiplayer community.

A Sound vs. Speed profile chart and new Ship, Sub, and Torpedo specification table will be released in support of this readme, to cover any specific changes to AI ships or weaponry (such as the complete listing of sonar parameter assignments) not covered in this document, however, I have taken to care to note the most important specific parameter changes to user platforms and weapons.

v2.0

Game-Play Changes

Sonar:

Passive Sonar—Amizaur has changed all passive sensors to have a virtually unlimited detection range potential, meaning that very loud contacts will be detected at very distant ranges, and there is no sudden “spike” when very loud contacts come into detection range. Detection performance against quiet targets is unchanged, as the majority of contacts are acquired under the previous maximum range of most user-platform sensors.
The range is not unlimited, the “invisible walls” of det curves are not entirely removed, but set to so high values that should not limit sonar range in any situation, set to max theoretical det range vs most noisy target + 20-30% more in some cases to be sure (like Kilo sonars).

Active Sonar—Amizaur has been able to reduce the detection range of the DICASS active detection on submarines to something under max range, so now it is possible for the sub player to avoid detection within the range of the sonar by lowering speed and showing a low aspect to the active sonar array. This change represents a fundamental database correction for the “active sonar bug” currently in DW v1.01 and should help balance the game until the fix is hard-coded in the next official patch, especially aiding Kilo players in attacking surface targets undetected, as previously it was almost impossible to stalk a convoy.
Well I will write that it’s only half-solution (in fact 10% solution) and it’s VERY far from perfect, but this is best I could achieve with current sonar model and at least in some cases and for some targets the range will be lower than maximal. But the active sonar bug still is in the game and it’s the most important DW bug currently. As jsteed said, there is somwhere x10 factor in the equation (or someone simply set period in wrong place – so it should be EXTREMLY easy to fix by SCS programmer !!!) and minimal change in target SL result in great detection range difference. So we still have to wait for the SCX fix to have proper active sonar model, but with those changes Kilo drivers at least stand a chance against air units 

AI Sonar (Thank you to Periscope Depth for input on this aspect of the mod)— I have added sensors to all sonar-bearing platforms that reflect realistic sonars. I have done this in the following method. Divided the sonars into three catagories: Western, Modern Russian/Soviet-Nuclear, Eastern Diesel/Old Eastern Block. From the Western, I made three scaled versions each of the Sphere, Hull, and TA sonars from the 688i sensors, and assigned them to each platform in the game with Western sonars, according to level and whether they had a TA. I then did the same for the Modern Russian, borrowing from the Akula Sensors, assigning them to nuclear submarines with modern Eastern Sonar. The Kilo array model I used for diesels with eastern sonars and old submarines, which are mostly eastern. For surface platform sonars, I have used the FFG sonar as a model.

The primary difference between the Western and Eastern sonars are the washout speed. The best Russian arrays are more sensitive than the worst Western arrays (still good), but the Western arrays maintain a signal at a higher speed. The new Eastern sonars and the old Eastern sonars differ in terms of their maximum range, the Kilo sensors I used for the model are much shorter range than the Akula sensors.

A separate chart listing sonars, assignments, and detection parameters will most likely be released subsequent to the mod after further testing.

Object Sound and Sound vs. Speed Fix (for sound levels credit also to finiteless, jsteed, and Periscope Depth; research, final design, and implementation by Amizaur)—Amizaur has completely reworked the object sounds and the sound vs. speed behavior for realistic effects. Submarines and ships are realistically quiet across platforms and have been assigned varying speed-noise curves. New SSNs have different speed curves from old SSNs. SSBNs are relatively quiet at max speed (well they just not grow so much like fast subs, because they are slower, can’t add same amount of noise for 25kts sub like for 35kts sub). Old diesels are quiet when stopped but very noisy when moving at speed, and the latest SSKs are very quiet. In addition, all surface platforms have been assigned more realistic speed-noise curves based on max speed, and American ships, especially the OHP FFG, are quieter than before relative to other platforms. Specifically, the OHP does not increase noise above stationary level until it is running above 10kts (this was in the game from the start, just nobody noticed it untill seen in Ludger’s Analyzer). The Akula II, SeaWolf, and 688i have a somewhat flat curve from 0-4kts, meaning there sound levels do not change in those speed ranges. Please see the separate Sound vs. Speed Chart for specifics.

Playable Passive Sonar Parameters—All playable passive sonar arrays have changed to have a Maximum detection of height of 10m. Previously hull sonars and buoys had a Max of 0m and sphere and towed arrays had a max of 300m. This caused any object with a passive sound level to show up on sonar as if it were underwater, specifically sea-skimming missiles whose sound levels were changed in this mod to simulate underwater missile launch (Thank you TLAM Strike for finding this). I have not set the depths to 0m because this causes contacts to display inconsistently on the BB waterfall. I do not believe that cone sensitivity is effected in any way by this fix within the detection Max and Mins, but there could be other issues I am not aware of. This may be refined later, but it is necessary now to address persistent sea-skimming missile transients.

Torpedos:

Amizaur has been able to make significant improvements to torpedo function.

TorpHoming Doctrine—This doctrine completely disables torpedo explosions on countermeasures. The torpedo, after acquiring a dropped decoy, will pass through the decoy and re-enable on the other side. Sometimes the torpedo will demonstrate odd behavior immediately after being spoofed, as could be realistic, but should always return to seeking properly if within its max range. Note: some of the TEST-71s on the Kilos use the wakehoming doctrine, so their behavior is unaffected by this mod.

Torpedo Doctrine—The updated version of this doctrine: reduces the search arc of the snake pattern for torpedoes from +/- 45 to 30 degrees; randomizes the circle or first snake turn direction, and, most importantly, prevents AI torpedoes launched against submerged targets from striking surface ships 90% of the time, by lowering the minimum depth of AI launched torpedoes.

Torpedo Seekers—Amizaur has modeled a wide range of active and passive seekers, with individual seekers for the most important torpedoes, including distinctive ping frequencies for classification over active intercept, as is realistic. The ADCAP active seeker is max range 3000m and its passive seeker is max range 1000m, will all other torpedoes scaled down from there, meaning there has been a significant reduction in the effectiveness of all torpedo weapons to reflect realistic parameters. Note: the parameters of all of the torpedo seekers have been tweaked so that thermal layers have a much greater effect on torpedo performance. Also, the width of seekers cones of the ADCAP and USGT have been increased to minimize the effect of the reduced snake search pattern on the effectiveness of these weapons. Some small warship active sonar levels have been increased to make the new seekers effective against them and very small civilian ships are nearly invisible to active torpedoes now, due to seeker changes.

Counter Measure Effectiveness—The effectiveness of launched anti-torpedo CM’s has been reduced to 40%. In addition, to emphasize, torpedoes will no longer explode on decoys. We feel that the reduction in CM effectiveness is necessitated by the much closer detection range of all sonar systems on quiet platforms do to reduction in over all sound level which changes game-play significantly, especially the great reduction in torpedo seeker ranges, as well as the greater effect of thermal layers. This and all aspects of the mod are welcome to community input for future changes, so please send as much feedback as you can!

Torpedo Sensor Feedback—ADCAP, USGT, and TEST-71 family of wire-guided torpedoes have been equipped with ability to send sensor feedback to the launching platform similar to the UUV. Targets marked by the torpedo sensors will be marked with a T prefix, and will be accounted for by the TMA just like other sensor tracks. Please send as much feedback as possible about this particular feature of the mod, as it can be extremely helpful in hunting lone subs at range, but in crowded contact environments can lead to a large number of extra tracks, especially with multiple torpedo launches. I have to say, this feature is extremely cool, but makes some mess on the screen sometimes 

WakeHoming Doctrine—Amizaur has reduced somewhat the effectiveness of wake-homing torpedoes by shortening the detection range of their sensor, especially for frontal shots against ships, which now much be made much more accurately. In general, the effect of this doctrine is to make wake-homing torpedoes something less than the 99% effective they were before, especially against targets that make effective evasive maneuvers. Also, all strictly wakehoming torpedoes have altered to be fired only against identified surface targets.

Well I think it not exactly this way. I didn’t mean to reduce effectiveness, this is only side effect. What I wanted to do was to make them TRUE wakehomers. They had visual sensor with a range of something like 500m, so when they seen a target within 500m they started to home on it even head-on. So i reduced range of the visual sensor to something like 50m, so the torpedo will see the ship only if it practicly runs into it, in last few seconds before detonation. So the wakehoming routine has to guide torpedo all the way and terminal seeker is used only for last 50m lock-on and detonation. So now when torpedo passes 100m ahed of ship, it would not acquire it like before – there is no wake ahead of the ship. Now you have to use it like wakehomer and only wakehomer, so aim BEHIND a target, not at him. Head-on shot sometimes works but rarely and have to be very precise. Side effect is only this that SOMETIMES when the target maneuvers and torpedo follow it’s wake zig-zag’ing it may lose the wake in last moment and take over the ship, or fell outside a square corner if the ship turned hard, so that’s why effectiveness can be SOMETIMES lower against maneuvering targets (or the target have chance to evade sometimes by hard maneuvers ). I think this is realistic if the real torpedos are strictly wake-homers. If they have additional passive sonar seeker and switch to passive homing when wake guides them close enough, maneuvers would not help, but I don’t know it they have secondary sensor and this would mean that you could try to evade one by hard turn and all-stop, trying to stop emitting noise. 53-65K makes 55kts and I’m sure that even if there is passive sensor, it’s very insensitive at that speed.

Fast Torpedo Speed Oscillation Fix—Due to a hard-coded error in the DW v1.01 engine, all torpedoes from speeds 56-159 display a wide speed oscillation and or increased speed. We cannot change this directly, however, the speeds of all torpedoes over 55kts have been reduced to 55kts and compensated with more realistic parameters.
ADCAP—Speed raised in v1.03 of our mod to 60kts. Lowered again to 55kts and given the best seeker in the mod as well as torpedo sensor feedback.
Spearfish—Range increased by 10,000m to 32km.
Type 89—Reduced turn radius to 100 (as all other torpedos) as previously high turn radius is now unnecessary with lower speed. Increased range by 15,000m to 45km and given it ASuW capability.
Type 40—Increased range of SS-N-27 ASW family of subroc missiles to 27nm, as is realistic.
APR-2E—range increased from 3.2km to 5km. (hmm ok. but you could set them to 60kts and get stable 63kts speed)


Damage Modeling:

All values for neutral and supply ships have been adjusted to make them more realistic in terms of the damage they will sustain. Light civilian ships are made more fragile and heavier ships are made realistically difficult to sink. Heavy military supply ships are made slightly more sturdy than the OH Perry Class FFG. Medium supply ships and oil tankers are slightly less rugged than the OHP, medium civilian ships have been made slightly tougher. Expect to have to use several medium and light torpedoes or missiles against heavy shipping now, with more necessity to be careful in wasting weapons when facing a convoy. Please see the separate platform specifications table to be released soon after the release of the mod for details. (IMO damage of great vessels like Supertanker or Cruise Ship should be even larger, so at least two 53-65K or one 65cm torpedo would be needed)
Also we didn’t change damage points of subs yet ! Look at Typhoon, it have same value as Kilo !!!!! Typhoon value could be set so that one ADCAP would make only 60% of damage, two would sink it. Oscar little lower. Damage points of Stingray are too small, and for Mk-50 are much too big IMO, this was meaned that it is very effective in sinking subs, but as a side effect it’s too good at sinking OHPs and other surface ships too. In further reviewing the database, we have decided to rework the damage modeling for most warships as well, with heavier ships of better build being modeled with appropriate levels of survivability. Expect some ships to be a little more difficult to sink and some ships to be a little easier in a sensible and predictable way. Please refer to the unit information tables to be released following the release of the mod for details.

Masts and Cables:

Periscope Depth’s Cable Length Mod—Thank you to Periscope Depth for providing this. The length of user-platform cables have been changed to real-world lengths: SQR-19/TB-29/23—5000ft, MH-60 Dipping Sonar—2500ft, and Pelamida TA—2300/701m.

Universal Doctrine Fixes:


SubAvoidxx-- Doctrines correct a bug in sub evasion routines that tells them to come too
shallow while evading, causing cavitation. Well tested.

Missle/MissleSam-- Corrects minor bugs in missile launch angles. Well tested.

SubrocAttack-- Improves accuracy of Subroc torpedo drop points.

CIWSAttack.txt-- Directs ships to fire a barrage of missles at "hard" targets,
ALPHA very close or very fast. It is your choice to include this, you can backup
your original CIWSAttack.txt doctrine and change the name of the file
included. I have played with this, and it definately makes ships launch more
SAM's at incoming vampires. I have yet to encounter any bugs with it.





Missile Parameters:

Passive Signature for Underwater Missile Launch--All sub-launched missles now produce a very noisy transient when launched. The exception to this is the Harpoon, which is much quieter,simulating its launch from a canister which opens up once it gets to the surface, making it a better option verse the TASM than previously.***Underwater missile launches will not give a TIW or any other audio warning.*** Thank you Bellman for raising this issue and Fish for confirming it over a LAN. Also, Amizaur has include a doctrine addition to the general submarine avoidance doctrine that allows subs to recognize underwater missile launches and evade under parameters in which it could be a subroc attack, giving AI subs a better chance of clearing the target datum and surviving subroc attack.


IR Signatures-
IR signatures added for all missles based on type, with a reasonable scaling from
seaskimming cruise-missles to supersonic, rocket powered anti-ship missles. This now
makes RAMs effective against anti-ship missles.

Amizaur's MANPAD Seeker Fix-
We have included the fix that has been around for sometime, reducing the seeker cone
of MANPADs to 3 degrees.

Radar Heights Changed—Some radar heights have been lowered, as previously some ships
BETA had been able to see too far over the horizon. Also, the minimum altitude
of the AEGIS SPY-1 Radar has been lowered from 5000ft to 10ft, which should
help them better track sea-skimming vampires.

Launched Anti-Missile CM's—effectiveness raised from 20% to 25%.(Thank you Mau for
suggesting this.)

MAD/SAD:

MAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -1000.ft

SAD—sensors have had max detection depth reduced from -3000ft to a realistic -750ft. Note:
the only difference between a MAD and SAD detection in the game is the depth at which
they are detected, so if I set the depths the same, the sensors would be exactly the
same sensor,as the platforms only vary in MAD characteristic, and have no separate SAD
characteristic).

AI MAD—AI platforms do not have a separate MAD/SAD detector. Previously, they had been setto detect from 0 to -3000ft. In order to permit realistic evasion tactics from MAD
equipped AI air platforms, I have set the AI MAD sensor to have SAD characteristics
(have fun under those funky sounding cargo ships!)

User Platform, Weapon, and Sensor Specific Changes

User Torpedo Specification Changes: (Thank you to Bellman for raising the issue of torpedo balancing)

53cm Torpedo—given UGST specifications: Active/Passive Multipurpose Wireguided Torpedo, 50km@50kph, with maximum depth 800m (less on fire-control preset panel) with 300kg warhead (vs. MK48 ADCAP 850m depth w/350kg warhead).

(sorry I changed ADCAP depth to 1000m, Mk-48 was 850m ADCAP has been cleared for more). Also I think if ADCAP should maybe have more damage points because of advanced fuse, for example 350kg under keel is much worse than near the side, and is said to be capable of sinking all but the biggest ships (lets’s say Kirov or Slava should require two).

65cm Torpedo—guidance sensor and doctrine changed to simulate 65-76 Wakehoming Hydrogen Peroxide-powered Torpedo (the type supposedly removed after the Kursk Incident). All specifications have been left the same except guidance-following the wakehome doctrine now-and the the wire has been removed. The wire-guidance option has been disable in-game, but I can't change the fire-control graphics, so you'll just have to remember that the A/P and search pattern buttons do nothing, and that the torpedo will continue in a straigh line after it enables. LAUNCH THE TORPEDO WITH THE DEPTH SET AT ~10m, depending on how lucky you feel that day. The Nixie should not affect this weapon in any way, but over-the-side decoys will cause enough of a disturbance in the water to distrupt the wakehoming, but the torpedo will not detonate on the CM's, and usually reaquire. (add that it should be aimed behind a target, not at target !!)

Mk46—Given Mk54 hypothetical specs, 17km@50kts with max depth 500m and a light weight, for airdrop use in littoral waters (the turn radius may be decreased in subsequent versions to further increase this effect). I have given the Mk46 ASW torpedo Mk 46 specs, and swapped out the modded Mk 46 in all non-American platforms and the Mk46 ASROC for the Mk 46 ASW (with Mk46 specs). So in short, all non-American platforms are armed with the standard Mk 46 torpedo they had previously, and all American platforms have upgraded to Mk 54. Again, Mk 46 ASROC has been left the same for all platforms. I thought it wasn't good to have a useless Mk46, so I did some research and came up with a torpedo that is marginally better than the Mk50 all round, but doesn't replace it, reflecting a torpedo with the upgraded propulsion of a Mk46 with the seeker of the Mk50, which constitutes the actual Mk 54 as indicated by my information. As the Navy's intention is to have a lower cost option to the Mk50, the propulsion system of which is very expensive. For me personally, I will be taking more Mk 54's now, unless I need to kill something deep!

53-65 Wake-homing Torpedo Family—The minimum running depth of the torpedo has been set to -14m in order to ensure proper launch depth against surface targets. You can still launch the torpedo from as deeply as before.

Shikval Mad Sensor—The MAD detonator on the Shikval has had its range reduced by half to 250m, as previously any shot within 500m of the target resulted in a kill, this makes it possible to evade one of these weapons if it is off target and proper maneuvering is used quickly. Rather vs close and non-maneuvering targets (or if you have nuclear warhead on it ;-)

SLMM and Mobile Mine—Includes Doctrine Files, Mod by Amizaur
A fix that makes them stop making noise after they have stopped moving has been
applied to both weapons. In addition, they will now actively try to stop once
they have reached their assigned location and will be reliably on target and hold
their position, making them an effective weapon, which they were not before. Their
maximum usable depth remains the same (300ft for SLMM and 450ft for Mobile mines,
the range of their seekers), but the weapon will shutdown below 600ft. These weapons
are for use in shallow water and will "malfunction" in deep water. ;-) Also, do not
try to use these weapons on a steep slope (well, don’t use AGAINST a steep slope on on slope going up, upward slope (?) I mean you can lay them without problem if you fire it in course pararel to land, so bottom will not be raising quickly in the last phase).
This is only workaround, not fix, but with mines capable of reveres speed used as a parking break works quite well 

Seawolf Max Speed—The max speed of the Seawolf class has been reduced to 38kts, as is more plausible. The Seawolf is still easily the quietest, fastest, and most heavily armed submarine in the world. ;-)

688(i) Towed Arrays- Added TB-23 as starboard array. The reason I have kept it
on the starboard, against what is commonly reported, is because in missions
where ownship starts with TA deployed, it is always the starboard array, and I
figured in most situations I would want that one deployed. The port TB-16
washes out at ~20kts and the TB-23 washes out at around ~16kts (you folks
can tell me if that feels right once you play around with it...
or if I'm just completely off...). I have set the sensitivity of the TB-23
to be pretty much in the middle of the TB-16 and the TB-29. I was even able to
change the names in game, so have fun captains!

Akula II Modified Gepard TA—The array of the Gepard has been upgraded to hypothetical Pelamida II standards, with a Max speed of +4kts over the original Pelamida, and the in game name has been changed to “Pelamida II”. The sensitivity has been left as it is. This array has also been assigned to the Oscar SSGN, to reflect the latest developments in the most funded Russian submarine projects.

Midget Sub—The Midget sub has been given a periscope sensor, as previously it had no sensors at all, and its active sonar parameters have been changed to make it more detectable as is realistic.

Russian SVTT-Ship Launched Torpedos—Changed to USET-80, to better reflect Russian
capabilites. Note, only Russian SVTT launchers previously
equipped with 53cm torpedos have been changed, some launchers are equipped
with other torpedos. Also, the Grisha FFL retains the 53cm Torpedo w/UGST
specifications, as the USNR in-game database says its launchers have
been modified to fire wire-guided torpedos, so I thought it might be interesting.

Russian Airdropped Torpedoes—Platforms that had previously been firing the 53cm will use the APR-2E, the torpedo which comes equipped as the default weapon the Helix ASW Helo.

SLAM-ER Fix—I have removed the missile's IR seeker, which apparently was interfering with its terminal homing. The missile now looks in the DB and behaves in the game
like a light TLAM, and, *functions correctly*, exploding on target with
the same accuracy of a TLAM. Note, this weapon is not the most effective strike
missile, as it has less than half of the warhead of the TLAM, meaning you need
more than one missile to destroy medium and heavy targets if the missile does
not land directly on target. Even small, light targets may escape the blast of
this missile if it overshoots. For some reason, IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE
WAYPOINTS, THIS MISSLE WILL NOT WORK!!! I can't change this, and I'm not sure why.
(well I have to take a look at it, I’m curious why it didn’t work. It may be the same problem I experienced with my first, snapshot version of SS-N-27 ASM – when it detected ANY target with it’s sensor, all range calculations were reset and doctrine called with Init=true all the time. With no sensor it worked ok. Sounds similar.

SS-N-27 Two Stage Mod—Mod by Amizaur, doctrine file included—The first stage of the missile launches the second one and falls to the water or sometimes rises into the air as a decoy, to simulate the reported real-world function of the missile. This version of the mod uses a streamlined doctrine format that needs only one doctrine file. The enable point of the first stage, which is a cruise missile at 500kts with a max range of 200km/108nm, enables its seeker as usual, however, when the seeker has acquired a target, the missile will fire the second stage, which is the supersonic attack phase equipped with the final seeker and warhead with speed 2.5 mach and range 24km/13nm. This version of the mod requires less finesse in entering the proper range, as the missile will tend to detect targets around the max range of the second stage, but it is good to enable the missile somewhere around the max range of the second stage (so 11-12nm before the target) to minimize the chance of an early fire and take full advantage of the coordination of the second stage supersonic sea-skimming attack phase and first stage post-launch decoy (to cover most of the air defence zone by supersonic stage, not by vunerable subsonic stage).



That's it! We hope you enjoy! Please let us know if you find any errors, would like to
contribute to a future release, or have any suggestions or comments. The place is http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

Happy Hunting.

LW

[Amizaur]

Luftwolf, I see our mail contact has broken or something... seems you didn't get my last emails with graph pack and two last changes to thrust profiles ? I send you email now, I made those two corrections (Akula 2 cSpeedNoise to 21, Kilo new dedicated thrust profile with cSpeedNoise = 13) that are needed so tha game is compatible with graphs, I made graphs with those changes taken into account. Database with graph pack should be in your and Bill's mailbox now.

P.S. But the most important change of this mod is not the NLs in my opinion ! :-)

For me the most important is the diversification of torpedo seekers, so small ASW or old torpedos don't have 5000yd acquire range like ADCAP, in fact even ADCAP now have smaller range because the typical target is supposed to be modern SSN or SSK with anechoic-coating, not big old SSBN. I forget to add table of torpedo seeker ranges :oops: will fix it !

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?

And in SP games too AI FFGs will not detect everything on max range on active (and send link to everyone else). I think it this would work ok, then other AI surface active sonars will be modified in same way, so it would be possible then to sneak closer in some conditions even against active sonar.

But of course it's only poor man's workaround, not in any way solution, the real improvement will be only true fix of active sonar model by SCS ! Same for doctrine mod that prevents AI from sinking friendly ships - it works... but this is all good about it - it causes unnecessary torpedo doctrine complication. Simple fix by SCS to make AI units set proper ceiling of their weapons would be 10x better.

[Molon Labe]

Luftwolf, I see our mail contact has broken or something... seems you didn't get my last emails with graph pack and two last changes to thrust profiles ? I send you email now, I made those two corrections (Akula 2 cSpeedNoise to 21, Kilo new dedicated thrust profile with cSpeedNoise = 13) that are needed so tha game is compatible with graphs, I made graphs with those changes taken into account. Database with graph pack should be in your and Bill's mailbox now.

P.S. But the most important change of this mod is not the NLs in my opinion ! :-)

OK, I forgot about the cavitation thing, so I withdraw my complaint about the Perry. But, I think you may be underestimating just how important the NLs are to realism and balance. For 2.1, I urge you to consider the following "tweak":

I noticed you were able to use different "curves" for increasing NLs. That's very useful. What you should do is start the SSNs at a "moderate" noise level, with the more modern ones a few points lower than the older ones. As speed increases, SLOWLY increase the NL. For the Seawolf in particular, keep the curve pretty flat. This makes sense, because it will put the real-life problem of SSNs always having a base sound level from the reactor while having the advantage of being very well-engineered to have very little flow noise as the speed increases.
But, for SSKs, give them a starting NL significantly lower than the base for SSN. Make the noise increase rapidly with speed, catching up with the SSN's at 6 knots or so and becoming downright noisy around 12. This lets the SSK use its real-life advantage at rest and at very low speeds, while compromising that advantage if it tries to cruise like an SSN. The problem with the hotfix wasn't that the Kilos were too quiet; it was that they never became noisy once they put on the speed!


For me the most important is the diversification of torpedo seekers, so small ASW or old torpedos don't have 5000yd acquire range like ADCAP, in fact even ADCAP now have smaller range because the typical target is supposed to be modern SSN or SSK with anechoic-coating, not big old SSBN. I forget to add table of torpedo seeker ranges :oops: will fix it !

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

This should improve things a lot, especially in multiclass matches. I look forward to testing it!


Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?
Yes. Don't forget the sonobouys and dipping sonars.


And in SP games too AI FFGs will not detect everything on max range on active (and send link to everyone else). I think it this would work ok, then other AI surface active sonars will be modified in same way, so it would be possible then to sneak closer in some conditions even against active sonar.

But of course it's only poor man's workaround, not in any way solution, the real improvement will be only true fix of active sonar model by SCS ! Same for doctrine mod that prevents AI from sinking friendly ships - it works... but this is all good about it - it causes unnecessary torpedo doctrine complication. Simple fix by SCS to make AI units set proper ceiling of their weapons would be 10x better.

They seem to be too busy at the moment. Hopefully, the feedback generated by your mod will give them some ideas about what to change when they finally do get around to patching DW. And of course, once they patch it, DWX will be just around the corner. Looks like you have the conn! ; )

[LuftWolf]

Amizaur, I think I may have not gotten one or two of your emails. Did you send them last night? because I got the changes to SW and 688i thrusts. I did get an email with charts, but those were before the last of the changes.

In any case, Bill, Amizaur has sent a corrected distribution, please post that one, which includes a zip with in the zip of Amizaurs great sound vs speed charts for the most important platforms. :up:

Sorry about that confusion, I'm at work for the next 20 hours, so if there is still a problem, I can fix it when I get back much later tonight, but as long as the zip file that amizaur sent back has all the doctrines and is set to install appropriate files to Database and Doctrine folders, everything is good with the version he sent.

Cheers,
David

[LuftWolf]

Yes, we definately had an email foulup... I just got like 8 messages from you, completely out of order! :-\

I have managed to get an hour and half at home by my computer. I've completely lost track of what you may have done on the mod after I sent it to you and Bill.

Have you finished adding what you wanted me to add from your emails? Is it finished and does Bill have the final version per you?

Sorry about the messup... wierd, yahoo email is usually very good. I'm posting this here and sending PM just to be sure in addition to email.

Edit: My messed-up email archaeology skills have led me to the conclusion that Bill indeed does have the correct version and after weeks of work, email servers are not going to mess us up, no sir! :nope: :up: :rock:

[LuftWolf]

Molon et al, yeah remember that the Passive SL comparision between subs and ship is not at all 1-1 because their thrust profiles are radically different and ships have much earlier cavitation points.

So, a OHP at anchor may be as quiet as Typhoon, with two nuke plants running and six times the size? ;)

[compressioncut]

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?



Nononono; very often you are listening for the echo rather than looking for it. Removing the "ghost" return echo would make the FFG (at least) active sonar screen much less realistic. It's one of the things that I like a lot, and protest strongly against removing it.


So, a OHP at anchor may be as quiet as Typhoon, with two nuke plants running and six times the size? ;)

A warship at rest ain't exactly silent - big, loud and multiple diesel generators, extensive air conditioning, high and low pressure air compressors, ventilation fans, etc. etc. A DG isn't like a portable Honda generator - they're probably equivalent in size to the main propulsion diesels in modern SSKs, and while I don't know how many an OHP has, my ship has four.

Of course, the noise level goes up with the size of the ship, from pretty loud with a smallish frigate/destroyer to deafening with something like a Nimitz carrier. I don't know how many noise complaints the carriers get when they anchor in the Roads out here, but I bet it's a few.

[LuftWolf]

That's interesting information. I take it you are sonarman? I had often wondered whether the audio return amplification capability of the active sonars (non-bearing information) exceded its display amplification ability (bearing information), and that SCS got it right and we all think its a bug.

Perhaps that is why the FFG has single-beam mode, Omni, and Omni Directional? Single beam mode can be used to obtain rough bearing information from audio only returns.

Also, on this note, I have many times been in a Kilo on the bottom of the ocean and been well within max detect range of surface active sonar and was not detected. This always felt right to me, do you guys have other experiences with the bug because it sounds like you are ALWAYS detected by AI regardless of anything.

Of course, being able to klick around on the screen to find a contact is not really good. ;)

On another note, since Amizaur made his Speed Graph for Surface Ships, I have changed some of the values to scale the ships for size and quality, so that smaller ships are generally quieter, as are better ships, by class and country. If an updated graph does not get included in this distribution, I would expect it to be posted soon and definately included, along with more thorough documentation and data-tables/graphs, in the already planned v2.01.

Happy Hunting.

Cheers,
David

[Molon Labe]

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?



Nononono; very often you are listening for the echo rather than looking for it. Removing the "ghost" return echo would make the FFG (at least) active sonar screen much less realistic. It's one of the things that I like a lot, and protest strongly against removing it.

It is a nice touch to have the sound, but the problem is that the audio feedback allows a player to click randomly at that range even if a return isn't visible. It's like the Kilo cheat only for active sonar. It would be one thing if the audio return came back garbled or degraded for weak echoes, but the way DW is right now it comes back full strength for a contact that should not have been detectable.

Losing the audio gives a big boost to realism and balance at the cost of only a minor hit to emersion. Easily a net gain.

[compressioncut]

Also the reduction of DICASS active range from always max vs everything to lower values vs at least some small targets is big difference I think, VERY big for Kilo drivers :-) now we stand a chance sometimes. Also FFGs active doesn't show every target on max range anymore. Unfortunately the "blip" ping return can still be heard even when tgt should not be detected and there is nothing on the screen (really nothing, no contrast/gamma/brightness settings can separate anything).

Maybe it would be good idea to remove the ping return sound from the FFGs and Subs active sonar stations ? An idea for sound modders - give a null sample instead of the "blip". I think there is nothing like that in reality and operator have to find the target on the screen, am I right ?



Nononono; very often you are listening for the echo rather than looking for it. Removing the "ghost" return echo would make the FFG (at least) active sonar screen much less realistic. It's one of the things that I like a lot, and protest strongly against removing it.

It is a nice touch to have the sound, but the problem is that the audio feedback allows a player to click randomly at that range even if a return isn't visible. It's like the Kilo cheat only for active sonar. It would be one thing if the audio return came back garbled or degraded for weak echoes, but the way DW is right now it comes back full strength for a contact that should not have been detectable.

Losing the audio gives a big boost to realism and balance at the cost of only a minor hit to emersion. Easily a net gain.

Okay - so you can click and assign a tracker to a ghost echo, or you can just get a fairly accurate determinition of the range from the timing of the echo? If it's the former, yeah, that's a cheat. If it's the latter, then that's exactly what I'd do with audio as an operator in real life. "SCS, HMS, I have an audio-only return at approximately 8,700 yards, bearing unknown." It gets dealt with tactically after I pass it up.

That said, it's unlikely you'll get a persistent audio-only return, unless I have tons of reverberation or other propagation problems. The processor should display the return, eventually, as it's reasonably smart.

[Amizaur]

OK, so echo sound should be in the game. Thanks for clearing this ! But I guess it should be quieter for faint contacts. In game it's always full volume, regardles of range, regardles of target strength, regardles if there is something on the screen or not. And you can click on the display where is simply nothing only background - you will get a track IF there is a sub. If there is nothing you can click all day and you don't get track...

So the the sound only informs you that there is something at all, and then tells you the range. Then only it takes to click on that range on different bearings to get a track where it really is :(. In absence of the return sound cheaters wouldn't know at what range they have to click.
And how I know I was always detected - from DbgView output of course. I was always detected when in range and AI active sonar was not washed out by speed.
In some missions (like St. Pete Blockade) you are in range and pinged, but the AI ship runs too fast, with completly blocked sonar, that you can do ANYTHING, even park on his course side aspect at peri and watch as it closes pinging and passes 100m from you - he would not get you on active, never. You can do whatever you want in that mission, you are safe from active sonar.
But when they run slow and sonars are working, I was detected ALWAYS by AI units when in range. Sometimes not attacked - when classified as neutral or not attacked from any other reasons (transit orders, weapon range, well AI behaviour after detection is in doctrines) but detection was sure. For example you are always detected in Kilo Demo mission by first or second OHP ping. Only not attacked because classifield as neutral - untill you fire or do something other aggresive...
Or maybe I shouldn't say this...? Well there are different opinions, some say that truth is your enemy sometimes... I think that it's not truth, but reality. And reality can be fixed sometimes - if you know the truth.

[compressioncut]

I see what you mean, by clicking all along the range you can create a contact. That's not good, and not really satisfactory.

Oh well.

[Bill Nichols]

Amizaur has sent a corrected distribution, please post that one, which includes a zip with in the zip of Amizaurs great sound vs speed charts for the most important platforms. :up:


Cheers,
David

Latest version is now available at my site! Many thanks to all involved :rock:

[Molon Labe]

Just gave the mod a quick test run using the P-3 in my own AEGIS Sucker-Punch (NCHQ version).


All of these use Kilo(I) as the target/contact

Sonar performance: (SSP is bottom limited, rock bottom)
VLAD performance: will pick up the Kilos at ~7kts from a range of 2-3 miles. Can classify from inside 1 mile (3 dots).

DICASS performance: similar to VLAD, will generate clear echo at 1 mile (side aspect), intermittent echo at 2.5 miles (angular aspect), no return from 4 miles (angular aspect).

Link Performance:
MH60 promoted a contact using passive sonar data from 2 VLADs when the target cavitated. A second Kilo could also be detected by VLAD while cavitating but was not promoted. This second Kilo got within 12 miles of the SAG (OHP and Burke) without being promoted.

Other:
All triggers appeared to be working properly.


Torpedo performance:
Mark 50: Acquired easily when dropped "on the head"
A shank shot from side aspect 3 miles away did not acquire when facing the target.
Mark 54: Acquired easily from 2 miles from angled aspect

***Potential bug***
I usually don't drive P-3's, and I've been away for awhile, so can some P-3 driver please confirm this? (This is using the default loadout)
------
The Mark 54 still displays at the Mark 46 on the P-3s TACCO station. In addition, some odd behavior was observed. After assigning a weapon to a waypoint, a menu appeared on the display asking to assign another weapon. Not doing so would cause the waypoint to be deleted upon exiting the TACCO station. Even if the Mark 50 station below a Mark 54 station was empty, the Mark 54 station was (usually) not visible on this menu. When a Mark 46(54) was selected and assigned to a waypoint successfully, the torpedo was not released upon arrival at the drop point.

The Mark 54 could still be dropped manually using the Fire button at TACCO.
-----

[Neutrino 123]

I just shot some Adcaps at a few targets, and I noticed one annoying thing about the torpedo active/passive information. The feature itself works very well and is an excellent addition, but the auto TMA keeps merging the torpedo data with the target data, essentially making the torpedo data disappear, and not moving the target into the correct place. Turning auto TMA off would fix this, of course, but for people who want to track other targets and simultaneously have the torpedo data, it doesn't work as well.

Is there any way to prevent the torpedo data from merging with the ship sensors data? Perhaps the torpedo data could somehow be classified as link data?

[Molon Labe]

Did some testing in the FFG.

Active sonar works beautifully!

Audio pings are NOT audible at maximum display range.
No audio or visual returns were present until I had a Kilo at side aspect at ~7 miles. At that point, there was a clear audio return, but I had to hunt for a visual. At the same time, there was a Kilo that was closer, at angled aspect at about 5 miles. It did not generate a return until it tured to show side aspect.

The only thing I would change would be to increase the visual returns that come along with the audio. Since audio returns are not being generated at max range, there is no need to remove them.

I see tactics starting to mean something again! Keep up the good work. :up:

In other news:

RAM SAMs are now about 33% effective against subsonic ASMs.
AI surface units seem less aggressive in engaging other surface contacts with ASMs. This needs further evaluation before it is "solid."

The SS-N-27 appears to be working as intended. Unfortunately, the bug with the FFG not plotting a radar contact properly is still occuring; it may even be worse--a fast moving contact I bracketed resulted in an SM-2 hitting a fishing boat. I'm not sure this can be modded away...

The AI is enabling the -27 about 4 miles from the target.

The 53-56KE Wakehomer will now cripple a Harper's Ferry LSD with a single hit, two will sink it. (I think it used to take four).

The TEST torpedo is now attracted to destroyed ships, but does not detonate on them. One TEST began to persue the launching platform shortly before the sunken ship dissapeared.

[Bellman]

Luftwolf and Amizaur have made one small request in the 2.0 Readme namely:-

Please send as much feedback as you can via the dedicated thread on the www.subsim.com main forum,
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=41581&start=0.

Mmmmm :roll: :o :hmm:

[Molon Labe]

AEGIS ships still aren't doing too well against the SS-N-27. They engage the booster stages first, while the terminal stage continues on unmolested!

[LuftWolf]

Thanks for hosting our mod again Bill! :sunny:

:huh:

Hmm... took me a minute to notice this had been moved to the mod workshop. That's fine, but I'm a little surprised. :hmm:

To the moderator who moved this thread: Yes, this is a mod, but don't you think it has generated enough "general" interest to be in the main DW forum? :hmm:

Especially since non-subsim members can't access this forum.

Can this thread be moved back or can we have an explanation beyond "It's a mod"? No problem either way, I'm just wondering. ;)

[LuftWolf]

I am up to my ears in work for the next day or so, and then I will be able to make individual responses to everyone who has posted feedback, but for now, I just want to say thank you to everybody. :up:

Cheers,
David

[Dr.Sid]

Is there any reference used for this or do guys just think US must be able to bend laws of physics ?

[Dr.Sid]

Yet one thing .. with all MASSIVE respect to modders .. WHY THE HELL did you include readme in that BEEP BEEP DOC format ? Even if we are all supposted to have windows, do we have to lick Bill's BEEP by using that BEEP BEEP MS Word ? Don't you guys know html or something like that ? :damn: ;)

[LuftWolf]

Ok, I can answer Molon's first post. :88) :lol:

Torpedo performance:
Mark 50: Acquired easily when dropped "on the head"
A shank shot from side aspect 3 miles away did not acquire when facing the target.
Mark 54: Acquired easily from 2 miles from angled aspect

Although the database is hardset with particular values for seekers, depending on sound propagation conditions, the actual seeker range for any given shot could be a little more or a little less. I don't know, but it could have something to do with the same reason why the layers have a greater effect, we turned down the volumn so to speak to the input on the torpedo seekers, so more subtle engine effects are able to come out. Or it could be a bug... I dunno but I can't imagine every mk50 torpedo ever fired acquired its target at exactly the same range so the same with our mod. :)

***Potential bug***
I usually don't drive P-3's, and I've been away for awhile, so can some P-3 driver please confirm this? (This is using the default loadout)
------
The Mark 54 still displays at the Mark 46 on the P-3s TACCO station. In addition, some odd behavior was observed. After assigning a weapon to a waypoint, a menu appeared on the display asking to assign another weapon. Not doing so would cause the waypoint to be deleted upon exiting the TACCO station. Even if the Mark 50 station below a Mark 54 station was empty, the Mark 54 station was (usually) not visible on this menu. When a Mark 46(54) was selected and assigned to a waypoint successfully, the torpedo was not released upon arrival at the drop point.

The Mark 54 could still be dropped manually using the Fire button at TACCO.

I'm pretty certain that nothing we've done has anything to do with interface issues, as the change of the mk46 to mk54 involved nothing but specifications, the essential game object is the same. In fact, we CAN'T change it any other way, the game is hardcoded for user platform weapons and database changes such as swapping out objects for user platforms doesn't work. However, we can change the specifications. It's the same process used for the 53cm/USGT and the Two Stage SS-N-27. That is also why we can't change the names in game (that's in the interface I believe).

For best results with the P-3 Loadout, I think its best to load individual racks (top and bottom of a single rack) with the same weapons. I think my basic ASW torpedo loadout for P-3 now in anything but deep deep hunting or very shallow hunting is two Mk50's and six Mk54's, if I can count right. :-?

[LuftWolf]

I sense some hostility Dr. Sid. :-j

Engineering is making the laws of physics work for you. ;)

The game is an abstraction and so everything is relative, although I don't really know what you are talking about, just guessing.

In terms of the readme, that's why we posted it here as well. I'm glad we have a place like Subsim. :up:

[XabbaRus]

I would advise against using feedback on the ADCAPS.

Thomas tried it with SCX and it caused more problems than it solved, eg merging contacts with Auto TMA.

How big is this mod as I am back on crappy dialup until I get my ADSL back :(