What is is about subs?

[SquidB]

OK im bored, havent posted for a while and was reading a book about nuclear subs.

What is it about modern subs that hooks us all. For me its the pinacle of engineering. Consider the sonar operator in THFRO a guy with soa gear yet using some common savvy to track the RO down. (I know its hollywood but ask any fighter puke if hes seen topgun)

so question is....what lead you to ASW on your pc and why?

[Ultraboy]

My roommate bought Sub Command shortly after release, played it for a day, then asked me if I wanted it 'cause he didn't like it, been playing ever since.

That was actually the first sub game I had played since SSN-21 Seawolf in the '90s.

[TLAM Strike]

I grabed 'SSN' one day from the bargin bin and it left me wanting to know more, then I spotted Sub Command then 'Blind Man's Bluff' on store shelfs one day and... :cool:

[kgsuarez]

Okay, this one is a little weird.

I saw Das Boot and liked it so much that I looked for a computer game about it. I found SHII. Soon after I found subsim.com and read about all the sub sims that were out there. It wasn't long before I got a copy of SC.

Eventually I was buying all the books I could find. Now I am starting to think that I might have a bit of a problem. :lol:

[Sea Demon]

After I got out of the Air Force, I found myself with a little extra time. Some friends of mine got me to look at Janes USAF as a way to relive my Air Force experience. Suffice it to say, it did nothing for me. The forward view seems to be too restrictive and clicking buttons to view right or left without moving your head feels unnatural. Found out, I don't like PC flight sims because of this. Therefore I went to Fry's electronics to look for other games. I saw Sonalysts/Janes 688(I)H/K and gave it a shot. Loved it. :up: Saw Sonalysts Fleet Command. Love it to this day. Got into the Silent Hunter Franchise for a different perspective. Love it. Got hooked on Sub Command. Was thrilled with SCX/SCU. And finally, here I am with the wonderful Dangerous Waters. 10 years ago, I never thought I would be so interested in the naval side of things.

Sea Demon

[Rip]

I served on a 688 and have always had a soft spot for any sub simulation. Especiall modern sub games like this. Nothing like doing what you love and still being home with the family every night :|\

[ShadowWulf]

I actualy just got into subs recently. I have always found them interesting though never really knew there were many sims for them (remember seeing Janes 688 several times in stores but never thought about getting it).

About a month ago I disided i wanted to play a challenging game and couldnt really think of anything. I saw a review for Silent Hunter 3 on tv and thought it looked really good and disided i was going to go buy it. I was searching on the web for a online sale and saw subsim.com and thought it was really cool that they accualy had a site about subsims alone. The review on the subsim that i read had references to other subsims so i thought i should check out other sims before disideing SH3 was what i wanted. I read about Sub Command and and fell in love with the akula :lol: . Never heard about stallions until then, just the idea of killing another sub from 30 miles away got me to buy the game. Been playing it sence and heard about DW over the forums and have recently ordered it offline (plan on playing it after i feel i have learned and got everything i can out of sub command. Probabley still go back to sub command for some of its mods and fan made missions).

After getting SC i went out and rented Das Book, and some other sub movies, and bought a few submarine books (have to say Hunt For Red October is my fav sub movie though). Been enjoying the whole thing ever since and hope to get SH3 sometime, probabley wait awile since i dont like cramming games together. Also trying to find a good Akula model.

[TLAM Strike]

Never heard about stallions until then, just the idea of killing another sub from 30 miles away got me to buy the game.30 miles? You mean you haven’t killed one at 50+ yet?!? Amateur... :-j

JK

[ShadowWulf]

Hehe :88) i try

[Kapitan]

my first contact was silent hunter i played it then upgraded to silent hunter two managed to hunt down sub command after seeing it on a website bought that fell in love with the akula and started playing i also came into contact with SSN but didnt find that much of a go.

finaly i bought dangerous waters and here i am :D

ive always been intrested in the navy ever since i was knee high what got me started was my father telling me about my great great uncle who died in a submarine.

the first ship i went on was the channel ferry stena rose since then ive been hooked on ships and submarines my first submarine being a u boat U995 in germany after that i decided the navy was for me and yeah it cause alot of upset in my family !.

[Kapitan]

Das Book
das book :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[ShadowWulf]

:88) so i cant type either

[bishop]

The original Sid Meier's Silent Service on my Atari 800 back in 1986. For modern subs it was Sid again, with Red Storm Rising on the Amiga in 1990.

[Ula Jolly]

Played Steel Panthers 2 (MBT and WWII) for a long time, then suddenly one day someone asks on the yahoo mailing list, if there is a similar game only with boats. After that request, I was hooked on finding a neat naval warfare simulator, preferably hex-based like SP.
Found (a demo of) Harpoon II, neat experience though too demanding.
After some here and some there, I stumbled over the demo of DW, downloaded it and was thrilled. Bought the deluxe not long after, waited eight days and started swimmin'.
:arrgh!:

[sonar732]

I read RSR while a senior in high school, played the game on IBM clone. Played Silent Service on Nintendo. SSN-21 Seawolf came out while I was in Sub School. Saw Sub Command in the Wal-Mart bargin bin. Now, in DW. Between Sub Command and DW, my wife has bought me one Naval Institute book on Submarines and another on U.S. Navy in general.

[Spectator]

watched das boot in, mmh somewhere around 87/89 and from there on my sub love began. the step to the world of modern subs was thfro the movie and the book afterwards. since then i read many books, watched many movies and played many games :)

[JoeL_221]

Started with Code Name Sector and knew sub games were for me when I'd end up driving a cruiser while my brothers and sisters had PT boats, and I'd still get the sub. I still have Battline's Submarine board game and until last year I had a working C-64 system with RSR. I've owned all the sub games from SSN-688i through SC. Still have Harpoon 1, 2 and 3, FC and now DW. Stopped playing DC/SHII online to play DW online. Tried most of the flight sims, just could never get into them enough to play online.

[Kapitan]

i suppose if you have history in submarines then many will also fall in love

[Sea Demon]

i suppose if you have history in submarines then many will also fall in love

What the hell are you talking about?!?!?! :huh:

[Kapitan]

i fallen in love with submarines because my family has history in submarines

[Rip]

i suppose if you have history in submarines then many will also fall in love

What the hell are you talking about?!?!?! :huh:

What is wrong with you. Have you not learned to speak kapitain yet :-j :rotfl:

[Kapitan]

not realy i is still lerning

[Bellman]

I is still lerning to spek the Kapitain dialect too.

But I want to - mein Kapitain has bucket loads full of enthusism and that is infectious.
Makes up for all the moaners about problems and patches. Carry on the good work mein Kapitain.

:rock: :rock: :rock:

[Kapitan]

thankyou

[Sea Demon]

I is still lerning to spek the Kapitain dialect too.

But I want to - mein Kapitain has bucket loads full of enthusism and that is infectious.
Makes up for all the moaners about problems and patches. Carry on the good work mein Kapitain.

:rock: :rock: :rock:

:lol: :lol: Yes. I have to say, I also like your enthusiasm Mr. Kapitain, very much. I say the naval sim community could use another 100,000 more Kapitain's all stampeding over to Battlefront to order a pristine "deluxe" version of Dangerous Waters.

Ahhhhh.........I could almost hear the sound of Sonalysts churning out that Arleigh Burke DDG Add-on.............. :smug:

mmmmmmm......True Multi-Mission Surface Warfare.......

Sea Demon

[Kapitan]

mmmmm arliegh burke add on emmmmm more targets :D

[Sea Demon]

mmmmm arliegh burke add on emmmmm more targets :D

:lol: Nothing wrong with riding on them surface targets. I actually enjoy the OHP. The Arleigh Burke would just be a more dangerous target to hunt. :up: One that is probably up to killing some godforsaken bubblehead that thinks he is invincible. :D

Sea Demon

[Snakeeyes]

I actualy just got into subs recently. I have always found them interesting though never really knew there were many sims for them (remember seeing Janes 688 several times in stores but never thought about getting it).

About a month ago I disided i wanted to play a challenging game and couldnt really think of anything. I saw a review for Silent Hunter 3 on tv and thought it looked really good and disided i was going to go buy it. I was searching on the web for a online sale and saw subsim.com and thought it was really cool that they accualy had a site about subsims alone. The review on the subsim that i read had references to other subsims so i thought i should check out other sims before disideing SH3 was what i wanted. I read about Sub Command and and fell in love with the akula :lol: . Never heard about stallions until then, just the idea of killing another sub from 30 miles away got me to buy the game. Been playing it sence and heard about DW over the forums and have recently ordered it offline (plan on playing it after i feel i have learned and got everything i can out of sub command. Probabley still go back to sub command for some of its mods and fan made missions).

After getting SC i went out and rented Das Book, and some other sub movies, and bought a few submarine books (have to say Hunt For Red October is my fav sub movie though). Been enjoying the whole thing ever since and hope to get SH3 sometime, probabley wait awile since i dont like cramming games together. Also trying to find a good Akula model.

Want good soviet nuclear sub models? go to Yankee model works on the web! Expensive but beautiful!

I bought a Sierra, a Victor III and an Akula! Building them now.

[ShadowWulf]

Thank you very much Snakeeyes. Been looking around forever for some good models.

[Kapitan]

personaly hobby and craft in england do good plastic models that and my 7foot long 688 :D

as for invincible bubble head :D:D:D:D:D bring it on i have no fear against a burke sank enough of them :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D

[Bellman]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Mein Kapitain , you are entering dangerous territory raising the topic of ' size ' :o :o

This is one of those confidential , and somewhat personal areas, that is best avoided. ;)

7 ft you say - heck how do you get it into your bath ? Can you get in too ?
Sure its a 688 - look closer - are you sure the 688 has two spheres ? :lol:

[Kapitan]

haha lol its a radio controlled model that i bought of ebay and i keep it in my garrage

the dam thing doesnt fit in me bath :cry:

and it does submerge (if it was built il try get some pics of it very soon in fact if i can get of my arse this afternoon i post some pics :D

[ShadowWulf]

haha lol its a radio controlled model that i bought of ebay and i keep it in my garrage

Hehe thats real interesting. Be really nice if it could submerge but then i guess it would be really hard to make a model do so. :hmm: Guess you would have to just have some way to let in water or air to raise or lower the model just like a real sub (hehe like to see anyone do that without it costs thousands of dollars/looney/euros or millions of pesos/yen though). Hey Kapitain if you dont mind me asking, how much did your model cost on ebay? Just curious.

[Kapitan]

just the shell and propeller shaft £400 it will cost about another £800 maybe £900 more to fit all the radio controlld stuff inside and engines etc.

the ballast systerm works by compressed air you buy air bottles and that alone is an arm and a leg i recon its going to cost at least what

£3500 to £4000 finnished

[sonar732]

haha lol its a radio controlled model that i bought of ebay and i keep it in my garrage

Hehe thats real interesting. Be really nice if it could submerge but then i guess it would be really hard to make a model do so. :hmm: Guess you would have to just have some way to let in water or air to raise or lower the model just like a real sub (hehe like to see anyone do that without it costs thousands of dollars/looney/euros or millions of pesos/yen though). Hey Kapitain if you dont mind me asking, how much did your model cost on ebay? Just curious.

On the sub base in New London, CT they have a "sub regatta" every year.

http://www.subcommittee.com/old/Photos.html#SubRegatta

I might suggest looking at there "Who Are We" link...

http://www.subcommittee.com/SubComm/about_us.cfm

[Kapitan]

lol id love to go but i cant dam it

hey wow model subs can fire torpedos :o

http://www.rc-submarines.com/id47.htm



http://www.rc-submarines.com/r_c_subs.htm main page even detail how it goes underwater

[sonar732]

lol id love to go but i cant dam it

hey wow model subs can fire torpedos :o

http://www.rc-submarines.com/id47.htm



http://www.rc-submarines.com/r_c_subs.htm main page even detail how it goes underwater

Forget about the torpedo's...check this pic out! :up:

http://www.rc-submarines.com/9d8901f0.jpg

[Kapitan]

wow i got to put that in my SSN :D

[stormrider_sp]

A few years ago, while looking for a game to buy in the store, it was near xmas, i found this 688(i)HK, which had just been released. I bought that and a game I don´t remember.
I just felt in love with modern subs.

[jason taylor]

Here's what I like about subs, not necessarily in any order of importance:

Sub war is a very "geeky" form of war and I am a certified geek. It doesn't require size or reflex, neither of which I have. What it requires is memory, cunning and puzzle solving skill. It bears no relation to the physical, and much to the intellect. It is slow and creepy. A sub/asw warrior does not have the option of letting testastorone carry him along, the way Achiles and Beowulf-or for that matter a grouchy dog might. He must keep up hour after hour, cold as the sea never knowing when death might come from "nowhere". It is a uniquely human form of war requireing qualities no animal could have. It has to be learned for none can do it instinctively. I won't say I could do it in real life but it is worth remembering those who could. In peacetime on the other hand it is a permanant "game" spiced up by the knowledge that there is a purpose beyond "the game"(or at least everybody thinks there is and sometimes there really is), but also by the knowlege that subbers get to test their prowess on one another in peacetime with no one having to get hurt. I don't know if real subbers enjoy it the way I imagine them to, but I would think quite a few would.
The long game of hide and seek is unique in all the methods of fighting providing a fascinating setting. It provides a tactical challenge of that few other formats provide. The technical minutiae of gadgets, gizmos, and stuff provides a treat because I am an invertate detailmonger and choose hobbies because they have lots of information to aquire and play with. Yet at the same time the details are not overwhelming.
Finnally thinking about submarine war gives one less of a mental hangover then thinking about the border war and operations-other-then which are really the most likly form war will take for decades to come. The only civilians are merchant sailors-who can't after all consider themselves civilians if they carry strategic materials for a belligerant(if you can't stand the heat etc). If you miss it won't land on some helpless peasant's villiage, there are no annoying reporters, no guerrilas changing into civilians when you get to close(and making sure said annoying reporters are in the area, after they have done so), no hostages, no embarrassment at having an unworthy foe, and no one to call you a bully because you happen to win the last engagement. I know it's all nasty in real life(I say this as a concession to PC-ideally it should be assumed I know this), but there are degrees of nasty and at sea it is less nasty then in operations-other-then. On the other hand if any thing like Dangerous Waters ever really takes place, the world will have to be in flames. In the meantime the eternal war of hide and seek goes on and no one can call me bloodthirsty for enjoying contemplating it as no one really gets killed(except in collisions which rarely happen). As Ramius said, "And once more we play our dangerous game. A game of chess against our old adversary, the American navy." Much of what I say sounds like romanticism but romanticism is only a flaw when it becomes naivity and there is no inherant virtue in cynicism. I know perfectly well that flushing a toilet on a sub is a bother-but I am not required to contemplate it.
Finnally naval war provides distinct units that interact in a delightful manner with the inherant advantages and disadvantages of platforms playing upon one another in a complex game of chess-as Ramius said. At the same time it has delightful simplicities. Each platform can be thought of as a single organism in a way that is impossible on land, thus a computer can digest it. Tactics can be contemplated in it's essence, wheras on land it is in a sense more about psychology then tactics, and most of all about logistics.
Finnally at sea you don't have to think about the nastier parts of fighting on land. The food is better, the smells and sights are not quite as bad, and no one has ever even heard of mud, dust, or rain. The victorious come home and the vanquished just drown but they don't lie for hours waiting for the ravens to finish argueing over them(ok there are sharks-but you are dead before they arrive).
Finnally Dangerous Waters is a curiously congenial forum. For some reason the internet is overloaded with jerks and name-callers. Perhaps it's because the subject is not serious enough to make people upset(yes, yes war is serious-but Dangerous Waters is play), and thus the people have perspective. Being caught in a flame always gives me a "hangover", and there are almost no flames on DanWat which makes it easier to live.May DanWat flourish!

[ASWnut101]

as for invincible bubble head :D:D:D:D:D bring it on i have no fear against a burke sank enough of them :D:D......


blow away any P-3C's yet:cool: .........

[Eagle1_Division]

lol id love to go but i cant dam it

hey wow model subs can fire torpedos :o

http://www.rc-submarines.com/id47.htm



http://www.rc-submarines.com/r_c_subs.htm main page even detail how it goes underwater

Forget about the torpedo's...check this pic out! :up:

http://www.rc-submarines.com/9d8901f0.jpg
HOLY CRAP :o :o :o Now THAT would be awsome. All it needs is a little camera on the front and a video feed (; you'd have to be preatty bored though, bet its terribly expensive. Wish i could have 1 4 free... well, not the pop-up version of "free" ;) . You know where i could get one... mabye not... probolly about $700 U.S. Dollars at LEAST...

BTW: I think that a Alreigh Burke Add-on would be nice, not a chance thou, and not a chance more yet for a nice Ticonderoga VLS add-on... the king of the seas...:lurk:
I find it kinda odd that sonylasts(however u spell it) is only interested in ASW. ASuW would be kinda fun, but it would get kinda boring. I think it'd be awsome to have a game for Anti-Sub, Anti-Surface, Anti-Air, Anti-surface...(im thinkin nukes :cool: ) Isn't that Fleet Command though? to bad there aren't nukes in that game... I mean u CAN control all the SSBN's...

BTW: i have a model of the Ticonderoga VLS, not exactly an "expert" though, as in the parts r a little off(the front is VLS and back is rails...?) its unpainted, u can c some model glue and its not tight together, but still, its not bad, its preatty nice...

[Zip420]

I have always been fascinated by submarines. In my opinion they are the absolute most lethal weapons platform known to all mankind. I am mesmerized by those machines. I remember playing a beta version of online Harpoon multiplayer back in like 95 or something and I was hooked, literally! Before that it was Harpoon II. Then the beta version ran out every other sub game seemed just a little to arcade like. Downloaded a demo for DW and here I am. Still havin some issues with sonar and TMA but its only been a few weeks :)

[goldorak]

Finnally Dangerous Waters is a curiously congenial forum. For some reason the internet is overloaded with jerks and name-callers. Perhaps it's because the subject is not serious enough to make people upset(yes, yes war is serious-but Dangerous Waters is play), and thus the people have perspective. Being caught in a flame always gives me a "hangover", and there are almost no flames on DanWat which makes it easier to live.
Try starting a Dw vs SH III thread and it will get devil hot within 1 minute. :rotfl:


May DanWat flourish!
Absolutely :up:

[Kapitan]

As a matter of fact my kill score in MP matches do include the downing of 4 P3C orions 31 FFG's 16 submarines 61 other craft.

In single player i have now toteld over 850,000 tonnes of sunken ships.

[Dr.Sid]

What I like on subsims ? Hard to say.
Let's analyse .. I hate war. I hate weapons. I hate killing.
I love machines. I'm amazed by weapons. Even nukes. How does it goes together ? I can't tell.
I like simulations of all kind. Aircrafts, spaceships, FPS, anything. All this fast paced, 3d environment action.
Subsims are different. Big part of it is just knowing all the stuff. And there is also the the myth of outsmarting enemy (like we can see in movies and books).
In fact, in DW, you very rarely outsmart somebody. Who makes mistake dies. If nobody makes mistake, better ship (ie ship with better sensors) wins.
But it is still fun, somehow .. I too wonder. Idea of being in command ? Fleet command was no such fun for me. Idea of being closed in tight iron tube under the water ? I hope not :-?

I've heard recently one of my grand uncle died on austrian sub in WWI. So maybe it is simply genetic disease ! :know:

[ASWnut101]

As a matter of fact my kill score in MP matches do include the downing of 4 P3C orions 31 FFG's 16 submarines 61 other craft.

In single player i have now toteld over 850,000 tonnes of sunken ships.



how do you find the number of tonnes you sink?

[Kapitan]

I note down every ship i sank then go to the USNI refrence and find the tonnage then add it together.

I keep a record of it.

[ASWnut101]

Ah, clever......

[SeaQueen]

I note down every ship i sank then go to the USNI refrence and find the tonnage then add it together.

I keep a record of it.

Do you start over every time you get sunk?

[Kapitan]

In single player ive yet to be sunk. and the tonnage doesnt include mp games.

[Dr.Sid]

In single player ive yet to be sunk. and the tonnage doesnt include mp games.

You state you have never been sunk in singleplayer ? You play with Truth on or what ? :|\\

[SeaQueen]

In single player ive yet to be sunk.

Where's the fun in that?

[ASWnut101]

Its not that hard, especially in a sub, even I am coming back to the "world" of submarines, specifically the Kilo (its my favorite besides the Seawolf). I also have yet to be sunk in a sub since my "return"

[SeaQueen]

You state you have never been sunk in singleplayer ? You play with Truth on or what ? :|\\

I don't think a lot of people realize how much geometry can bias things. I was playing a scenario the other day I downloaded and it left me entirely unsatisfied. It left me thinking, "What was the purpose of this whole exercise?" The submarine was never in any danger. He was opposed by a totally inadequate force. He started off in an advantageous position. I thought the whole thing was silly. I shot my torpedoes until I didn't have any more, killed a bunch of stuff and had a nice day. It was BORING. I think impatience and a lack of understanding of the geometry of naval warfare, causes people to undercredit the capabilities of the AI too.

I also think they like to play the vessel with an edge.

[ASWnut101]

so it was sort of like a Seawolf against a torpedoless corvettes? thats pretty sad. I hate those missions where, like you said, it puts an already super deadly sub against a very easy opponet. I think that putting any surface combatant against a sub without at least a ASW aircraft makes it way too easy for the sub to do ASuW.

[Eagle1_Division]

Sometimes even helos doen't help that much, u just have to use a SAM launched from the conn:cool:: i was playing S.D. Breakout and its really up-front forget the stealth to me. Surface, launch a missle at the helo, and fire torps at the frigate (: though he sends a torpedo right back at me... i still dodge it, but all his helos r shot down. A great map for the impatient who just want up-front combat.
:lurk:

BTW: Whats REALLY boring r the missions that don't have enemies at all. What was sonyalists thinking? or have i just not played them?

[SeaQueen]

so it was sort of like a Seawolf against a torpedoless corvettes? thats pretty sad.

It wasn't just that. Also, the targets moved slowly. At spawn, the ships were already in weapons range. The whole scenario was a straw man.


I think that putting any surface combatant against a sub without at least a ASW aircraft makes it way too easy for the sub to do ASuW.

Not necessarily. This gets into what I was saying about geometry. Try the NATO EXWAR Exercise scenario a few times and you'll see what I mean. Submarines are limited by their weapons range and the fact that to remain silent and have a long endurance, they must remain slow. That imposes certain kinematic constraints on a battle. Surface vessels have the advantage of speed, and team work as well. They have great communications, and heavier armament.

While an SSK might be able to get off a first shot against a surface combattant, the surface combattant, by using his speed, can frustrate an SSK's ability to get off a shot at all. If a surface combattant detects an SSK, even if he's just armed with SVTT, then he has successfully defended the high value units he's escorting because now they have the option of changing course, leaving the SSK HOPELESSLY out of position for a torpedo shot. So, the battle is more competitive than one might imagine.

There's also the fact that if an SSK shoots a surface vessel, now there's a flaming datum. So now they have the SSK localized to a certain degree, if they know it's weapons range (i.e. they look in the USNI reference). Now the problem is how to search the area of uncertainty faster than it's expanding, which a surface warship can do. So... an SSK really needs to pick it's shots because if he shoots early, he's risking having a bunch of angry destroyers chasing after him, even if he hits his target of choice. Submarines need to shoot the target of maximum impact to be effective.

A surface vessel can kick a submarine's butt, but it has to be very smart about what is working in it's favor and it has to choose it's battles. Surface ASW is really an art of it's own, but it requires a very high degree of proficiency to be competitive. I think that DW people tend to have a pro-submarine bias, though, and make scenarios from the perspective of a submarine being the ultimate weapon.

[ASWnut101]

hmmm, interesting. I also agree that some people view subs as "king" of the game/seas, and that they think they are invincible. but one thing with the submarine, is that once you fire a torpedo and it explodes, there is now a long 'blue-out' period where it becomes very hard to find anything with sonar. this can allow a sly submarine commander(:cool:) to commence his escape, wich will start complicating things for the surface vessel. and if the sub gets below the sonic layer, you can kiss it good bye. but what you said is also true, but for a submarine commander to put himself in that position is not a very smart commander. they must think ahead before firing a torpedo, so they can get off a shot with minimal counter detection. A lowly kilo class can even sink a carrier in a battle group, while its the same for the surface vessel: a lowly corvette could sink a Seawolf if in the right position. like i just said, if a sub commander is smart enough and thinks about these things, it will be very difficult for a surface vessel to get a hit on the sub. and of course, a not so bright sub commander will almost certainly get himself and his crew killed if what you said happens. So what it pretty much comes down to is whichever commander is more intellegent will win.

[SeaQueen]

hmmm, interesting. I also agree that some people view subs as "king" of the game/seas, and that they think they are invincible. but one thing with the submarine, is that once you fire a torpedo and it explodes, there is now a long 'blue-out' period where it becomes very hard to find anything with sonar. this can allow a sly submarine commander(:cool:) to commence his escape, wich will start complicating things for the surface vessel.

That reflects the distance scale over which you chose to play. EVERYONE on the board doesn't always experience that, and even when they do, relative to the amount of time it takes to transit the distances in the scenario, it may just be a bat of the eyelash.

Suppose you wanted to set up a barrier patrol between Bear Island and the Norwegian coast, okay? It takes over a full day to go from one side to the other at 5kts. Does a few minutes of broadband noise make a big difference? Not really. You might lose contact for that period of time, and if you only had a very tenuous hold on the bad guy he might be tipped off by the explosion and quickly slink away, but that minute or so of noise isn't a big deal to me in terms of my tactics. I suspect if I had a tenuous hold on him and lost it, I'd probably be able to pick it up again later unless he'd already essentially gotten past me.


and if the sub gets below the sonic layer, you can kiss it good bye.


Depending on the layer depth, you might be able to put your towed array below the layer. Also, being on opposite sides of the layer limits the sub's sensors too. As you get closer to a surface combattant, the layer isn't as effective at stopping sonar because it only reflects rays impinging at a shallow angle. Without specific knowledge, it isn't clear at all how detectable an SSK might be.


but what you said is also true, but for a submarine commander to put himself in that position is not a very smart commander.


I don't think that's necessarily the case. Since an SSK has to go slow, it's maneuvering options are quite limited. He really is at the mercy of what a surface group chooses to do. The SSK operator also has to operate with a degree of uncertainty about what the enemy's sensors can do, and in the absense of a periscope sighting, specific knowledge about where the target is located and what he's doing.


they must think ahead before firing a torpedo, so they can get off a shot with minimal counter detection.


That's true. I'd argue that due to the limited ability of an SSK to maneuver in the face of a quickly advancing surface group, this isn't always possible. It'd probably always be possible to take out a surface combattant, but the high value units, the ones you really want to get because they influence the outcome fo the war, are not at all easy to get at.


A lowly kilo class can even sink a carrier in a battle group .. like i just said, if a sub commander is smart enough and thinks about these things, it will be very difficult for a surface vessel to get a hit on the sub.


That's true, but he doesn't really need to hit the sub to do his job. Surface combattants are COMBATTANTS. They're expected to take a hit every now and then. They're charged with protecting important ships that are of value to the theatre commander, such as combat logistics ships, gators and aircraft carriers. If an SSK has to punch through the screening forces by shooting a surface combattant in order to get to the high value ships, the SSK has already lost, because as soon as he shoots he's localized, and will be prosecuted by the remaining ships. That also means the important ships (CLF, carriers, gators) are going to be quickly moved someplace where the commander of the group feels there's less of a submarine threat.

So what it pretty much comes down to is whichever commander is more intellegent will win.

I'd also say there's a hearty dose of good luck thrown in there too.

[Kapitan]

normaly i will only do track missions these help my navigational skills, and also tactical skill on how to remain undetected, however when i do face the enamy in surface warfare i have the disadvantage mainly, if i was going up against american force i would be attacking a battle group with a victor III or something like that, or worse still alone.

The idea is not to kill the escorts really just the carrier although sometimes i do take pop shots at the escorts mainly the big aegis ships like the ticos or burkes as i know my surface forces are not able to take them out single handedly unless its a kirov or slava or sovvy.

So far in a track mission's ive taken on my list numerous subs and ships, from carriers to corvettes, some like these ive tracked:

John C Stennis and her battle group med 2004
USS Nebraska Atlantic 2004
USS Rhode Island Atlantic 2005
USS Seawolf Artic 2005
USS Miami Bearents 2005
USS Dallas Kara 2005
HMS Turbulent 2006
HMS Ark Royal and her battle group Med 2006

loads more ive tracked all sorts of vessels but 90% are all fully capible of killing me single handed.

[SeaQueen]

The idea is not to kill the escorts really just the carrier ..


I agree. I'd only go after escorts if I was in a bad spot and worried I was either detected or about to be detected by one.

[Kapitan]

Targets worth hitting are ticos burkes and carriers.